Xdap rd6 Atlanta Axis(allies) vs allweneedishank

[allweneedislove]

is there a problem with the ussr file?
i could not open it.
can you please upload it again, or is there a problem on my end?

[allweneedislove]

attacker 1sub, 2tacs, 2 bombers
Rolls: 1@2, 2@3, 2@4; Total Hits: 31@2,: (3)2@3,: (4, 3)2@4: (2, 1)

defender 1cruiser
Rolls: 1@3; Total Hits: 01@3: (6)

[boldfresh]

Hey love… you dont get to reroll the battle.  :lol:  u r silly.

[Hank13]

@allweneedislove:

is there a problem with the ussr file?
i could not open it.
can you please upload it again, or is there a problem on my end?

I can’t open it either…

[boldfresh]

Geez guys the text is right there.  A couple ncm!  Just do it yourselves and proceed with japan  :-)

[rgp44]

@allweneedislove:

attacker 1sub, 2tacs, 2 bombers
Rolls: 1@2, 2@3, 2@4; Total Hits: 31@2,: (3)2@3,: (4, 3)2@4: (2, 1)

defender 1cruiser
Rolls: 1@3; Total Hits: 01@3: (6)

not that it matters but I wasn’t rolling the sub if you were going to re-do the whole battle

[allweneedislove]

rgp, i am just looking to do what i think is the fair way to correct the mistake. please let me know if the following does not make sense and if there is a more fair way please let me know.

i had done the sz113 battle and assumed that you would want to save your sub so i submerged it.(i was wrong)

i posted in our thread if you wanted the sub to fight to roll the battle on the forum.

you wanted the sub to fight, which is a decision that needs to be made before any dice are rolled. subs have the option to submerge BEFORE any dice are rolled.

so we went back to the point were i made the mistake(assuming you would submerge) and corrected it by rerolling the battle on the forum. i assume we would keep the forum rolls as that is what you had asked for.

i am the one that made the mistake assuming you would submerge, so ultimately whatever you and jeffm decide is what we will do, but i would like you to do what is fair and logical. i believe that submerging is a decision that must be made without the knowledge of what dice came afterwards.

[rgp44]

Again, what you said was “roll the sub if you wanted it to fight” which I did.  You did not say “if you want to roll the sub we can re-roll the combat”, had you said that I would not have rolled the sub.  So if you want to be fair, since you have edited your offer I will edit my choice and not have the sub roll.  So, you are welcome to place it back in the sea zone.

While I understand you making an argument on principle, given the state of this game, it hardly seems worth a fight.

[boldfresh]

rgp can speak for himself of course ~ but you made the initial mistake, allweneed, and generally when you make a decision for an opponent and roll dice, you must shoulder the burden of accepting whatever the defender chooses, therefore you do not get to reroll dice.  dice as rolled should always stand unless there was something illegal done.  you hit the cruiser, and the cruiser hit you back.  you made it sound like if he would have put his sub in the battle you would allow him to roll for it (a gentlemanly move, or so i thought).  in reality, it was a no brainer to have the sub in the battle - and since you are normally a reasonable person and a good sport, i find it hard to believe you would even consider it reasonable to reroll the entire battle given the circumstances.

[allweneedislove]

sorry if it seems like i was looking for a fight or an argument. i was/am not.

i was just trying to clear up a battle, and we have different opinions on what is the best way to do it. i do see how “roll the sub if you wanted it to fight” sounds like that would be the ONLY part of the battle that would be redone(but that does not make sense to me)

i dont agree with it, but it was MY mistake, so i will agree to your resolution.

hank, no need to make edits to sz113, so you can do japan’s turn when you are ready

[boldfresh]

the funny thing is, the sub didn’t even hit!  i could see if the sub hit, you having more desire to reroll the battle since you would have lost an aircraft, but STILL, given the circumstances, that would have been your tough luck since you opened yourself up to the possibility.  the allies are in a tough position here allweneed - they need to take some chances - it’s not fair for you to try to take those opportunities away from them by making assumptions, and then on top of it, try to take away the hit they DID get.  geez, you are RUTHLESS MAN!!!  :-o

[Hank13]

I realize I’m coming into this discussion a bit late and that the matter is already resolved but I would like to make a supporting argument for my partner.

If a unit is not included in a battle (ie/ a sub) and that battle is going to be redone then the entire battle should be re-rolled. This isn’t a ploy to gain leverage (as allweneedislove as said, the battle just as easily could have gone against him), but rather it is the right way to correct for a mistake. To do this any other way would be unfair, as it gives one side the ability to make a decision after dice have been rolled and they can see the result.

With that being said, the wording of allweneedislove’s offer for the sub re-roll did sound like it was just going to be the sub so I can easily see where the confusion of his subsequent actions come from (re-rolling the combat).

In no way to I wish to add more comments/arguments to this topic, as you guys have already resolved it. I will proceed with Japan’s turn as soon as possible (probably tonight).

[boldfresh]

@Hank13:

I realize I’m coming into this discussion a bit late and that the matter is already resolved but I would like to make a supporting argument for my partner.

If a unit is not included in a battle (ie/ a sub) and that battle is going to be redone then the entire battle should be re-rolled. This isn’t a ploy to gain leverage (as allweneedislove as said, the battle just as easily could have gone against him), but rather it is the right way to correct for a mistake. To do this any other way would be unfair, as it gives one side the ability to make a decision after dice have been rolled and they can see the result.

With that being said, the wording of allweneedislove’s offer for the sub re-roll did sound like it was just going to be the sub so I can easily see where the confusion of his subsequent actions come from (re-rolling the combat).

In no way to I wish to add more comments/arguments to this topic, as you guys have already resolved it. I will proceed with Japan’s turn as soon as possible (probably tonight).

actually hank, while your logic may seem reasonable, it does not take into account a very important fact - the attacking player did not wait for an answer on the submerge or not submerge.  therefore, rolled dice stand and the defender has the right to roll the sub or not.  this is customary and correct when all is taken into account.  rolled dice should always stand when there is not an illegal move.

[Gargantua]

In the event of an error, the erroree (person causing it) should also defer to the best interests of their opponent.

I believe that principle has also been upheld in this match.

Also… sometimes if I want to blitz through a battle I just always give my opponent the “best dice” scenario.

Sure, I’ll take his bomber or subs off first, finish the battle, and then if I lose or what have you, allow my opponent to put pieces like his bomber back on the board, if he believes he would have held on to them.

At the end of the day, a 1 or 2 pip edge is often so trivial, that they may as well be allowed.

[boldfresh]

imagine this scenario hank and love, and you will see where you logic immediately breaks down in a similar (not exactly the same) example.  you attack a sea zone that has a lone destroyer and an airbase with 3 fighters that can scramble.  you attack with 5 ftr, tac, and a sub.  you make the choice for your opponent that he will not scramble.  you roll the battle and you whiff in the first round and he hits.  you whiff in the second round and he hits. unlikely i know, but stuff like this happens to me all the time.  now what?  your attack against his 4 units (if full scramble) was 91% with 3 units remaining… but if he’s behind, he may take the chance of getting lucky!

now you say, well, if you want to scramble the entire battle has to be rerolled?  i don’t think so.  now, you could argue that you should not have to continue after round 1, but even that is an argument i would not want to pursue if i was in the attacker’s position.

or put another way, what if his cruiser had hit in this case and you had whiffed in the first round?  his cruiser hits and you lose the sub. you roll again, miss again, and his cruiser hits again. you roll again and finally hit him and the cruiser hits again.  then he says, hold on, i would have rolled my sub in the first round.  and you say…?  well, the let’s reroll the battle.  nope it don’t work like that.

cheers

[boldfresh]

sorry that first example was a little off, it was 99% with 4 units remaining for the attacker - sorry!

[boldfresh]

you may think i’m belaboring the point, but i’m saying these things because IF you beat atlanta and face us, i don’t want anything like this happening.  plus, during a tournament game, i tend to check into the boards from my phone every hour or so at least.  so any answer you need will be very quick.  but if you ever proceed with a battle not asking for a scramble, intercept, submerge, casualty choice, etc and dice are rolled, be prepared to keep those dice and if i want to retroactively change my casualty choice or roll for a sub, or scramble or intercept, i don’t want to hear some argument for how the entire battle should be rerolled.  of course it goes both ways.

cheers

[Hank13]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.7

Game History

Round: 9

Purchase Units - Japanese
            Japanese buy 2 fighters, 7 infantry, 3 mech_infantrys and 2 submarines; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 6 SuicideAttackTokens;

Combat Move - Japanese
            1 unit repaired.
            1 infantry moved from Tsinghai to Sikang
                  Japanese take Sikang from Chinese
            1 infantry moved from Shensi to Suiyuyan
                  Japanese take Suiyuyan from Chinese
            1 infantry moved from Kweichow to Hopei
                  Japanese take Hopei from Chinese
            1 infantry moved from Korea to Amur
                  Japanese take Amur from Russians
            1 infantry moved from Manchuria to Jehol
            1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Japan to 6 Sea Zone
            1 transport moved from 19 Sea Zone to 6 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from Korea to 6 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from Japan to 6 Sea Zone
            1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 6 Sea Zone to 19 Sea Zone
            1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from 19 Sea Zone to Shantung
            2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 6 Sea Zone to 19 Sea Zone
            2 infantry moved from 19 Sea Zone to Kiangsu
            1 fighter moved from Kwangsi to Shantung
            1 bomber moved from Kwangsi to Jehol
            1 fighter moved from Japan to Kiangsu
            1 fighter moved from Japan to Kiangsu
            1 bomber moved from Kwangsi to India
            3 infantry moved from Shan State to Burma
            2 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber moved from 37 Sea Zone to Burma

Combat - Japanese
            Battle in Burma
                Japanese attack with 2 fighters, 3 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber
                British defend with 1 artillery and 1 infantry
                    Japanese roll dice for 2 fighters, 3 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber in Burma, round 2 :  4/6 hits
                    UK_Pacific roll dice for 1 artillery and 1 infantry in Burma, round 2 :  2/2 hits
                    1 infantry owned by the British , 2 infantry owned by the Japanese and 1 artillery owned by the British lost in Burma
                Japanese win, taking Burma from UK_Pacific with 2 fighters, 1 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 1
                Casualties for Japanese: 2 infantry
                Casualties for British: 1 artillery and 1 infantry
            Battle in Shantung
                Japanese attack with 1 artillery, 1 fighter and 1 infantry
                Chinese defend with 1 infantry
                    Japanese roll dice for 1 artillery, 1 fighter and 1 infantry in Shantung, round 2 :  0/3 hits
                    Chinese roll dice for 1 infantry in Shantung, round 2 :  0/1 hits
                    Japanese roll dice for 1 artillery, 1 fighter and 1 infantry in Shantung, round 3 :  3/3 hits
                    Chinese roll dice for 1 infantry in Shantung, round 3 :  0/1 hits
                    1 infantry owned by the Chinese lost in Shantung
                Japanese win, taking Shantung from Chinese with 1 artillery, 1 fighter and 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                Casualties for Chinese: 1 infantry
            Battle in Kiangsu
                Japanese attack with 2 fighters and 2 infantry
                Chinese defend with 1 infantry
                    Japanese roll dice for 2 fighters and 2 infantry in Kiangsu, round 2 :  1/4 hits
                    Chinese roll dice for 1 infantry in Kiangsu, round 2 :  0/1 hits
                    1 infantry owned by the Chinese lost in Kiangsu
                Japanese win, taking Kiangsu from Chinese with 2 fighters and 2 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                Casualties for Chinese: 1 infantry
            Battle in Jehol
                Japanese attack with 1 bomber and 1 infantry
                Chinese defend with 1 infantry
                    Japanese roll dice for 1 bomber and 1 infantry in Jehol, round 2 :  1/2 hits
                    Chinese roll dice for 1 infantry in Jehol, round 2 :  1/1 hits
                    1 infantry owned by the Japanese and 1 infantry owned by the Chinese lost in Jehol
                Japanese win with 1 bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 0
                Casualties for Japanese: 1 infantry
                Casualties for Chinese: 1 infantry
            Strategic bombing raid in India
                    AA fire in India :  0/1 hits
                Bombing raid in India rolls: 4 and causes: 4 damage to unit: factory_major
                Bombing raid in India causes 4 damage total.

Non Combat Move - Japanese
            1 bomber moved from India to Kwangsi
            3 mech_infantrys moved from French Indo China to Yunnan
            1 armour moved from Kwangsi to Shan State
            1 mech_infantry moved from Malaya to Shan State
            1 mech_infantry moved from Malaya to Yunnan
            2 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Burma to 37 Sea Zone
            2 fighters moved from Kiangsu to Kwangsi
            1 bomber moved from Jehol to Kwangsi
            1 fighter moved from Shantung to Manchuria
            1 battleship, 2 carriers, 3 destroyers, 2 fighters, 1 submarine, 2 tactical_bombers and 1 transport moved from 45 Sea Zone to 35 Sea Zone
            2 destroyers and 2 submarines moved from 6 Sea Zone to 35 Sea Zone

Place Units - Japanese
            3 infantry placed in Malaya
            2 mech_infantrys placed in French Indo China
            2 fighters, 4 infantry and 1 mech_infantry placed in Japan
            Japanese undo move 3.
            2 fighters and 4 infantry placed in Japan
            1 mech_infantry placed in French Indo China
            2 submarines placed in 6 Sea Zone

Turn Complete - Japanese
            Japanese collect 63 PUs; end with 63 PUs total
            Objective Japanese 4 Control Dutch East Indies: Japanese met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 68 PUs

Territory Summary for Japanese :

Shantung : 1 flag, 1 artillery and 1 infantry
    Kwangsi : 1 flag, 1 airfield, 2 bombers and 2 fighters
    Kiangsu : 1 flag, 2 infantry
    Kiangsi : 1 flag
    Japan : 3 aaGuns, 1 airfield, 1 factory_major, 2 fighters, 1 harbour and 4 infantry
    Manchuria : 1 flag, 1 fighter
    Shensi : 1 flag
    Yunnan : 1 flag, 3 armour and 7 mech_infantrys
    Suiyuyan : 1 flag, 1 infantry
    Kweichow : 1 flag
    Hunan : 1 flag
    Kansu : 1 flag
    Hopei : 1 flag, 1 infantry
    Tsinghai : 1 flag
    Szechwan : 1 flag
    Sikang : 1 flag, 1 infantry
    Shan State : 1 flag, 1 aaGun, 1 armour, 2 artilleries and 1 mech_infantry
    Burma : 1 flag, 1 infantry
    Malaya : 1 flag, 1 factory_minor, 1 harbour and 4 infantry
    Borneo : 1 flag
    Kwangtung : 1 flag, 1 harbour
    Philippines : 1 flag, 1 airfield and 1 harbour
    Amur : 1 flag, 1 infantry
    French Indo China : 1 flag, 1 factory_minor and 3 mech_infantrys
    Celebes : 1 flag
    Java : 1 flag
    Dutch New Guinea : 1 flag, 1 artillery and 1 infantry
    Sumatra : 1 flag
    42 Sea Zone : 1 flag
    44 Sea Zone : 1 flag
    43 Sea Zone : 1 flag
    37 Sea Zone : 1 flag, 1 battleship, 2 carriers, 1 destroyer, 2 fighters, 1 tactical_bomber and 4 transports
    35 Sea Zone : 1 battleship, 2 carriers, 5 destroyers, 2 fighters, 3 submarines, 2 tactical_bombers and 1 transport
    39 Sea Zone : 1 submarine
    19 Sea Zone : 2 transports
    16 Sea Zone : 1 destroyer
    6 Sea Zone : 2 submarines

Production/PUs Summary :

Germans : 70 / 90
    Russians : 8 / 0
    Japanese : 63 / 68
    Americans : 55 / 83
    Chinese : 3 / 13
    British : 42 / 47
    UK_Pacific : 5 / 3
    Italians : 16 / 9
    ANZAC : 10 / 18
    French : 5 / 0
    Dutch : 0 / 0
    Mongolians : 0 / 0
    Neutral_Axis : 0 / 0
    Neutral_Allies : 0 / 0
    Neutral_True : 6 / 0

[boldfresh]

the crowds demand action!!!  :-P

we can smell blood in the air and we demand that the killing commence without further delay :-D

[boldfresh]

@Boldfresh:

the crowds demand action!!!   :-P

we can smell blood in the air and we demand that the killing commence without further delay :-D

i am just joking guys, your pace by most standards is great.  :wink: