Appreciate all the help. Lots of great explanations and clarifications of the rules.
Contested seazone question
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what is RAW?
here is my understanding:
You could:
1. move the transport out of the sea zone, pick up units somewhere else (berlin), then move back into the sea zone, and unload them to Norway.
or
2. move the transport out of the sea zone, conduct combat and defeat the destroyer, then move the transports back into the sea zone and pick up the units in West Germany and then unload them anywhere friendly
or
3. leave the transports where they are, conduct combat and defeat the destroyer, (transports can no longer move, since they were in combat), and pick up the units in west germany and then unload them anywhere friendlyplease krief, confirm if anything I said is wrong, or not fully right….
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RAW is rules as written.
At the beginning of the Combat Move phase, you may
already have sea units in spaces containing enemy units that
were there at the start of your turn. For example, an enemy
may have built new sea units in a sea zone where you have
surface warships. When your turn comes around again, you
are sharing that sea zone with enemy forces.
If you are sharing a sea zone with enemy surface warships
(not submarines and/or transports), this situation requires
you to do one of the following:
� Remain in the sea zone and conduct combat,
� Leave the sea zone, load units if desired, and conduct
combat elsewhere,
� Leave the sea zone, load units, and return to the same sea
zone to conduct combat (you cannot load units while in a
hostile sea zone), or
� Leave the sea zone and conduct no combat.
Once these sea units have moved and/or participated in
combat, they cannot move or participate in the Noncombat
Move phase of the turn.Here is what is not clear. 1st it states surface warships which transports are not. 2nd I am choosing to remain in the seazone, it does not state I cannot load units if I decide to do that.
A transport can load units while in any friendly sea zone along its route, including the sea zone it started in.
This is under the transport section in combat movement. When playing by the rules as written you have to assume both statements are true and in order for both statements to be true, I can load in an occupied sea zone.
The second half of that last statement I last quoted is not repeating the first half of the statement in that sentence, that would be redundant. A route by definition includes the start and the finish, the including therefor implies I can load in contested sea zones provided my transports started there.
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These rules have been pretty much the same since classic, if germany bought an IC on west germany, it would not stop UK from loading units for the whole game with 1 naval purchase every round.
Even in revised placing a destroyer did not stop germany from loading in contested sea zones. Same with AA50. In fact global would be the first Axis and Allies board that does not allow loading in shared sea zones.
They call it shared for a reason.
No where in the rules does it explicitely state I cannot load transports in shared sea zones.
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Also if players cannot load units in contested sea zones… once allies get korea, japan could never load units from japan if the allies place a destroyer there every round… that would make no freaking sense at all.
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@Cow:
� Leave the sea zone, load units, and return to the same sea
zone to conduct combat (you cannot load units while in a
hostile sea zone)what about the second part of this one? the sea zone is hostile if there is a surface warship in it….
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Dear Cow,
1. kcdzim is recognized as one of kreig’s deputies and his rulings are pretty much gold plated
2. The rules you quoted saysthis situation requires you to do one of the following:
Staying in that seazone and loading from there is not one of those options. Hence, not allowed.
3. It’s in the FAQ . . . ruling by Kreig himself
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=19919.msg796814#msg796814The only time that you can load transports in a hostile sea zone is in the combat movement phase in which you declare war. �This may only be done under those conditions if the transport started the turn in that sea zone and the sea zone has just become hostile as a result of the declaration of war.
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@Cow:
These rules have been pretty much the same since classic, if germany bought an IC on west germany, it would not stop UK from loading units for the whole game with 1 naval purchase every round.
Even in revised placing a destroyer did not stop germany from loading in contested sea zones. Same with AA50. In fact global would be the first Axis and Allies board that does not allow loading in shared sea zones.
They call it shared for a reason.
No where in the rules does it explicitely state I cannot load transports in shared sea zones.
They’re shared seazones BEFORE a DOW. After that they’re hostile(contested) seazones. The rules were different before in that in the past you could not build into a hostile seazone, it had to be a friendly one. Global/Pacific are one of the newer iterations of allowing builds into hostile seazones. Hence, in say in the classic example you referenced, Germany could not build into the seazone around UK unless it was cleared of allied ships.
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what is RAW?
here is my understanding:
You could:
1. move the transport out of the sea zone, pick up units somewhere else (berlin), then move back into the sea zone, and unload them to Norway.
or
2. move the transport out of the sea zone, conduct combat and defeat the destroyer, then move the transports back into the sea zone and pick up the units in West Germany and then unload them anywhere friendly
or
3. leave the transports where they are, conduct combat and defeat the destroyer, (transports can no longer move, since they were in combat), and pick up the units in west germany and then unload them anywhere friendlyplease krief, confirm if anything I said is wrong, or not fully right….
I’m not Kreig, but I’m 100% sure that you can’t move the transports in both the combat and noncombat phase. I’m leaning towards no on both #2 and #3.
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To clarify, I’m 100% option 2 is out the window. And I’m maybe 80% no on option 3 since my understanding is that those transports ‘participated’ in a battle and can no longer load during the NCM portion. I could be wrong though.
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You can only load in a contested seazone on your turn if you just made DOW that caused the seazone to become contested. That’s clear in the rules (and probably worded much better :D). That is obviously not the case here. Option 1 is correct. The transports can move 1 space out, load and return for an amphibious assault. The US destroyer’s value here is that it is blocking German shore bombardment (which may well be worth its cost).
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No cruiser or BB shots, but he has 7 transports and the only way Germany can fully load those transports is if he can load from both Germany and Western Germany. One DD to stop 7 more attackers is well worth it IMO.
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yep. Well played.
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The units from West Germany could get to Norway only during Noncombat Movement once z113 is no longer hostile, but not as part of the amphibious assault. Options 2 and 3 would both be NCMs.
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what is RAW?
here is my understanding:
You could:
1. move the transport out of the sea zone, pick up units somewhere else (berlin), then move back into the sea zone, and unload them to Norway.
or
2. move the transport out of the sea zone, conduct combat and defeat the destroyer, then move the transports back into the sea zone and pick up the units in West Germany and then unload them anywhere friendly
or
3. leave the transports where they are, conduct combat and defeat the destroyer, (transports can no longer move, since they were in combat), and pick up the units in west germany and then unload them anywhere friendlyplease krief, confirm if anything I said is wrong, or not fully right….
Only 1 is legal.
Option 2 & 3 suggest movement/combat in combat phase and then attempting to use the same unit again during noncombat. Transports (or any unit other than aircraft) can only be used in one phase - they’re locked down and cannot load/unload or move.
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� Leave the sea zone, load units, and return to the same sea
zone to conduct combat (you cannot load units while in a
hostile sea zone)Yes you cannot load units from hostile sea zones, but this is a shared sea zone. The book refers to this situation as shared sea zones, which happens when an enemy produces a ship in occupied waters.
The terminology the book uses matters. Why make a distinction between shared sea zones and hostile sea zones if it ultimately results in being the same thing?
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Also no where in that does it say I can offload units so if no distinction were made, no attacks would be possible.
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The rules define a hostile sea zone as one which contains surface warships belonging to a power with which you are at war. Nowhere do the rules define (or even mention) “shared” sea zones. They do mention “sharing” a sea zone, but that has no bearing on its status as either friendly or hostile.
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this rule needs an errata, 1 destroyer stoping a giant fleet is redonkulous, especially for aa50 - one cannot do sea lion before taking karelia. That is pretty lame/gay/cheesy. I guess most people just house rule it for their live games, still if you made a better product it might sell more copies. I can’t imagine doing this to someone, I’d have to put my balls back in the socket and be a tranny if I did. It ain’t right, ruins the whole point of buying naval.
I can only be disappointed in the developers. Maybe that is why most live groups play with house rules.
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So Cow, how about all the times a single infantry blocks a territory to prevent a dozen tanks blitzing through it to a second territory? Or how about all the times a single destroyer stops combat movement of a huge fleet taking Japan or Hawaii? Blocking is part of the game and you are supposed to plan for it. Don’t be telling Krieghund the game is BROKEN because you made a mistake in your game with seth. We all make mistakes. You should accept your mistake, learn from it and move on.
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@Cow:
this rule needs an errata, 1 destroyer stoping a giant fleet is redonkulous, especially for aa50 - one cannot do sea lion before taking karelia.
that s where ita air kicks in. actually not only in aa50 but in most maps including global ita air can clear naval blockers for ger, making “drop a ship to prevent 20 guys landing strategy” almost impossible for allies if ita sees the threat and moves planes accordingly.
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