Definitely.
China vs Russia 2011
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In non-nuclear contact China since Russia mainly has old Soviet equipment, but China has huge population and more advanced weaponry which is starting to catch up to Russia in power and China spends $100,000,000,000 on defense spending (2nd in the world) and Russia spends $56,000,000,000 on it (5th in the world.)
http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-comparison.asp This has more detail just choose China and Russia.
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China is already on shaky ground socially and politically, you throw in a potentially world ending war started by the Chinese government the Chinese communist party and the entire system of Chinese government would be overthrown by the Chinese people.
What proof do you have of this? I was just there last month, and you couldnt be more incorrect.
There is the China you see that the Chinese government wants you to see, then theres the other China people actually live in. This other China is full of people who hate their countries government and their lack of personal freedoms. There are massive social issues in China as behind the communist guises it is run in the exact same way Chiang did before the revolution, with elites controlling everything and effectively above the law.
While times are good, the Chinese majority will turn a blind eye to their countries injustices and lack of freedoms, but if you take away massive wage growth and economic stability you have a powderkeg of both ethnic and class tensions which threatens to tear China apart. China likes to be portrayed as a unified nation but it is in fact comprised of over 40 different ethnic groups most of whom vehemently oppose the Chinese government (as is illustrated when the Western media actually gets a chance to report on these stories, which is quite rare).
This isnt just anti-communist and anti-Chinese propoganda either my opinion is informed by both first hand accounts from people who have lived in China and news reports from independent sources such as the BBC.
My apologies to the mods if this is getting too political.
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There is the China you see that the Chinese government wants you to see, then theres the other China people actually live in. This other China is full of people who hate their countries government and their lack of personal freedoms.
Yes, Im sure the Chinese goverment has nothing better to do then cover up all these things during my numerious trips there as a private citizen on holiday and extended stays over the past 10 years, Being such an important individual and all! :lol: good on you for using the BBC though, its where I get my news :-)
I think the important thing to note is that we need to clarify that we’re talking about a non-nuclear war here, because if going to include nuclear war then we need to add a third voting option that says “nobody” cause after the atomic purging they’d inflict on eachother the fallout would devastate the world.
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China.
No doubt.
You’re talking about BILLIONS of people, for many of which a cot and 3 square a day is a STEP UP.
Economy is superior.
Manpower is superior.
Will is superior.
Corruption is equally replete.
Military Tradition is superior.
Discipline is higher.
Sphere of influence is also superior. Everyone from the arabs, to the Koreans would lend the chinese an ear, over the old soviet state.
Europe isn’t going to bail out Russia methinks.
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The population of Russia was 142,905,200 as per the preliminary results of the 2010 Census
With just over 1.3 billion people (1,330,044,605 as of mid-2008), China is the world’s most populous country.
Ok, everyone who voted RUSSIA was an idiot.
You could kill, HALF A BILLION Chinamen and there would still be a 5 to 1 ratio, of Chinese to Russians.
HALF A BILLION is alot of people. WW2 only killed 60 million.
That means Russia would have to kill, 10 times as many people, as died on a whole in the second world war, just to get it to 1 vs 5….
Think about that for a moment. It’s even worse from an occupation stand point.
It’s the same thinking that cost the germans the war, yea they were better, hands down. But so what, sooner or later, you run out of men.
Russia has to use nukes just to stay in the game, but because of the culture, I doubt it would even phase the Chinese government.
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The Russians couldnt make enough bullets to shoot all the Chinese Their economy is too powerful also
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China.
No doubt.
You’re talking about BILLIONS of people, for many of which a cot and 3 square a day is a STEP UP.
Economy is superior.
Manpower is superior.
Will is superior.
Corruption is equally replete.
Military Tradition is superior.
Discipline is higher.
Sphere of influence is also superior. Everyone from the arabs, to the Koreans would lend the chinese an ear, over the old soviet state.
Europe isn’t going to bail out Russia methinks.
Europe would bail out Russia I reckon, so would the Americans. There is no way Europe or the U.S would ever let China become all powerful by conquering all of Russia.
The Europeans wouldnt accept the Chinese on their doorstep either would the Americans like China being so close to Alaska if they conquered Russia.
Also the Japanese and Tawainese would be more than willing to open up a second front in any war as they know they would be on China’s hit list sooner or later.To clarify my somewhat muddled position.
China invades Russia > Europeans, Americans, Japanese, Tawainese perhaps even the Indians get involved > China gets crushed either under the weight of massive opposition, or Nuclear winter.
Post war multinational occupation force occupies China much like Germany post WW2 until such time a cohesive democratic government can be put together and China’s remaining nuclear arsenal can be disarmed. -
The problem with the original question is, of course, that there wouldn’t be a non-nuclear war. So the third option, “nobody wins”, seems to be the most accurate.
And with the nukes, Russia “wins” even without any help from either Europe or the US. It’s way ahead of China in nuclear capacity and missile technology, and has the strategic advantage of having a bigger country and a more dispersed population. -
@suprise:
The Russians couldnt make enough bullets to shoot all the Chinese Their economy is too powerful also
The Russian economy? This is incorrect. The Chinese economy is quickly becomming the world largets and is already one of the most dynamic in the world. The Russian economy is strong but not powerful, the all mighty petro-dollar withers in the face of the diverse nd growing Chinese economy
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That’s what he is saying Clyde, the russians can’t beat the chinese their (chinese) economy is too powerul.
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And FOR THE RECORD, if Europe tries to bail out the Russians, what about all the other little states, like North Korea, Vietnam, Aghanistan, Iran, African states etc… what would their price be? And would they join China against their age old enemies? it’s a new world war.
LETS NOT FORGET, that the socialist like mind hates war, and the mandate of the European Union and it’s beureacrats is one of national suicide. I don’t think countries like Turkey, Poland, and Romania are going to want to get in the fight particularily, And even if they did… they wouldn’t amount to more than a speed bump.
Europe was in the last two, they are going to sit the next one out. There is NO ONE with the resolve of Churchill or others left, save perhaps the German Chancellor, but really, is europe prepared for that kind of conflict? No.
As for Americans, Canadians, the Commonwealth and Japan, we’ll be in a pitch fight over the pacific, long before we’re putting boots on the ground in Russia.
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That’s what he is saying Clyde, the russians can’t beat the chinese their (chinese) economy is too powerul.
Ya know what, I saw it early this morning and misread what it said, I thought it said the Russians could, my bad, sorry suprise attack
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@suprise:
the all mighty petro-dollar withers in the face of the diverse nd growing Chinese economy
China has no currency that can compete with the USD. The Yuan is crap. China’s per-capita also nothing worth bragging about.
1 Chinese yuan = 0.157319 U.S. dollars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
USA no. 7/7/9
China no. 94/95/100Yeah.
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you realize the chinese government is keeping there currency that low so everyone buys there products. I bet if they didnt do that the yuan would be worth 1.5 US dollars.
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So what? China exports crap things. Japan, the US, Germany, etc export things that are modern technology. China makes things my dog could make. Chinese will just work cheap and when there is over a billion of them that adds up. If China did not have as much people as it has it would be so behind in GDP right now. China is dependent on its exports because their high population works cheap. If the US, Canada, EU, Japan, etc starts wanting to put Indian products in Wal-Mart or some other country China would be kind of screwed. Especially since they are still getting use to capitalism, while the US has used it for over a 100 years.
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Crap things….like the I-pad and I-phone? Just because most of what Walmart sells is from China does not bean they make nothing but crap, they make lots of things. They are starting to produce higher quality commodities and their ability to move up the food chain to more complex products is increasing. Any nation that can launch men into space as they did a few years ago more than once and launch remote space vehicles that can dock, un-dock and maintain a livable environment and return to earth can make some sophisticated products. Their space launch success rate is better than that of the Russians recently.
Germany still does an excellent job of exporting products unlike the US. Hmmm, socialist Germany beating the tar out of a non-socialist country in terms of manufacturing and exports. Germany is more socialist than China when it comes to taking care of their people.
The US does have a huge advantage with innovation. US culture is superior to that of China when it comes to innovation. The western way of challenging authority produces people like Steve Jobs. The tendency in China is to not challenge so much, they would perfect the 8-track.
I think the original question should be a two part question. Results of a Chinese aggression that results in war in isolation with Russia and vis-a-versa. In both cases the war would have to be a war to defeat the leadership of the enemy nation rather than a conquest and long term occupation. Neither Russia nor China could occupy a majority of the others land.
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@Herr:
The problem with the original question is, of course, that there wouldn’t be a non-nuclear war. So the third option, “nobody wins”, seems to be the most accurate.
And with the nukes, Russia “wins” even without any help from either Europe or the US. It’s way ahead of China in nuclear capacity and missile technology, and has the strategic advantage of having a bigger country and a more dispersed population.I agree. If it was a Conventional War, over those great distances. We would see a return to WW1 style fronts. (Like the Pakistan/Indian boarder today).
Logistics would be a nightmare in both Siberia and the extensive Chinese interior. A mobile war would not be possible over such distances.
Remember that these areas are still vastly open and under-developed even to this day.
The distance between Beijing and Moscow is incredible.
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We would also have to establish some sort of objective that both side are trying to gain, as these “strong man” contests can go on and on unless we better define the perameters. Some sort of reason like the Chinese trying to reclaim outer-Manchuria, or the Russians trying to gain influence (and covertly territory) in places like Xinzhang and using Mongolia to destablize inner-Mongolia. The we could more accurately deifne what the theaters would be, what the landscape is like, logisitical concerns, and what forces would likely be needed.
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We would also have to establish some sort of objective that both side are trying to gain, as these “strong man” contests can go on and on unless we better define the perameters. Some sort of reason like the Chinese trying to reclaim outer-Manchuria, or the Russians trying to gain influence (and covertly territory) in places like Xinzhang and using Mongolia to destablize inner-Mongolia. The we could more accurately deifne what the theaters would be, what the landscape is like, logisitical concerns, and what forces would likely be needed.
Great Point! That would defiantly make this an easier question to answer.
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Wars are won in the will. That’s it. The people who lose, are simply the people who get fed up first, or who think all is lost.
For example… German couldn’t possibly have occupied ALL of Russia, or Russia, ALL of Europe… but other people submitted to their will, like Poland, France, Baltic States etc, because they did not believe in the possibility of winning against their enemy (Unlike Finland) That’s all it takes.
Simply said, it’s who gives up first. Unless you ABSOLUTELY destroy everything that moves in the entire countryside, vehicles, planes, people etc.
It will be a war like the Russian Civil War, it’s about controlling the urban points, and using the infrastructure that exists in place, mixed with quick air response vietnam style. You don’t need to control the Distance, you just need to control the points at either end of the string.
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