AA50: Strategic - A New Way to Play A&A: Anniversary Edition

[squirecam]

@axis_roll:

@cousin_joe:

@squirecam:

And of course, the one playout I detest the most… Japan pushes to Moscow  :roll:

1. No allied units can enter USSR territory unless Moscow falls.
2. Japan can not attack USSR unless USSR attacks Japan first.

Problem solved.

I’m not a big fan of these hard and fast rules
It limits strategic options too much so
I’d rather see rules that would penalize either party for breaking the treaty, but not completely disallow it
In Enhanced, we had a 4INF penalty (either added to attacked territory or home territory) which actually deterred an attack a lot of the time but still allowed for the possibility if needed

I second Cousin_Joes thought.  Penalize with consequences, not outlaw.

One proposal I’ve seen in another thread (recently, by Darth) how to implement this penalty woould be an NO:  Russia gets an extra $5 if Japan occupies any originally russian controlled territory.

And what does this do for “historical accuracy”? You just give USSR 4 inf up front, or 3 inf/2 turns. You still have the “non-historical” playout, only you’re fine with it because its “more fair” or something.

If one is “truly tired” of japan attacking moscow, then the simple fix is the one I posted.

If you do your proposed steps, then you are not truly tired of it after all. You just want a free allied bonus.

[Imperious Leader]

Squirecam is right. Kinda

1> Japan cannot attack Soviet Union unless USA falls
2> Soviets cannot attack Japan until Berlin falls

If you want to tweek rule 1 because you view it as a harsh rule, then add the Soviet far east forces at any time Japan decided to attack ( immediately appears 15-24 IPC worth of Soviet plastic as a penalty)

AS far as the game goes it is balanced and does not require any special rules ( if your not playing with NO’s which don’t make sence anyway). Any new rules would presumably be only to add flavor.

[axis_roll]

@squirecam:

@axis_roll:

@cousin_joe:

@squirecam:

And of course, the one playout I detest the most… Japan pushes to Moscow  :roll:

1. No allied units can enter USSR territory unless Moscow falls.
2. Japan can not attack USSR unless USSR attacks Japan first.

Problem solved.

I’m not a big fan of these hard and fast rules
It limits strategic options too much so
I’d rather see rules that would penalize either party for breaking the treaty, but not completely disallow it
In Enhanced, we had a 4INF penalty (either added to attacked territory or home territory) which actually deterred an attack a lot of the time but still allowed for the possibility if needed

I second Cousin_Joes thought.  Penalize with consequences, not outlaw.

One proposal I’ve seen in another thread (recently, by Darth) how to implement this penalty woould be an NO:  Russia gets an extra $5 if Japan occupies any originally russian controlled territory.

And what does this do for “historical accuracy”? You just give USSR 4 inf up front, or 3 inf/2 turns. You still have the “non-historical” playout, only you’re fine with it because its “more fair” or something.

If one is “truly tired” of japan attacking moscow, then the simple fix is the one I posted.

If you do your proposed steps, then you are not truly tired of it after all. You just want a free allied bonus.

I never said anything about historical accuracy.

The whole game is about history being changed.

I want a game with many strategic options.  Not just the KGF/KIF where Germany has to hold out until Godzilla (70+ IPC Japan) comes to kill Moscow.

[squirecam]

@axis_roll:

I never said anything about historical accuracy.

The whole game is about history being changed.

I want a game with many strategic options.  Not just the KGF/KIF where Germany has to hold out until Godzilla (70+ IPC Japan) comes to kill Moscow.

Well, according to the first post, A&A “strategic” was supposed to be 1 or 2 simple rules changes to “enhance” historical accuracy. Then you and CJ discussed everything but a 1-2 simple rule change.

Which is also my point.

If you want to “re-balance” A&A because you feel its not fair, there’s a simple way. Its a bid. With that bid, the allies can place x # of units directly in India, which may be sufficient to hold it. Perhaps. Or Perhaps not. But at some #, X + UK IC purchase will hold.

Rather than find a bid to equal the pacific game, CJ places an IC (which if in Canada, does nothing for historical flavor). Except that the same result can be done with a sufficient pre-placed India bid, which then doesnt absolutely require UK to defend the IC, but still alows it to be built.

But still this does nothing to answer the supposed issue - Japan vs russia.

The simple fix I proposed will solve that issue, and not require tech changes, a “1/2 IC” idea, or any other haphazzard idea. Its two clearly historical rules, which is what this topic was supposed to be about.

So either change what A&A strategic is supposed to fix (History), or lets start discussing actual history fixes rather than stuff having nothing to do with Historical accuracy.

[axis_roll]

@squirecam:

@axis_roll:

I never said anything about historical accuracy.

The whole game is about history being changed.

I want a game with many strategic options.  Not just the KGF/KIF where Germany has to hold out until Godzilla (70+ IPC Japan) comes to kill Moscow.

Well, according to the first post, A&A “strategic” was supposed to be 1 or 2 simple rules changes to “enhance” historical accuracy. Then you and CJ discussed everything but a 1-2 simple rule change.

That was not my post.  C_J said that.  Take you historical accuracy point up with him.  I never mentioned anything about historical accuracy.  I think that arguement is bunk.  I have NEVER ever made that arguement when discussing A&A ANYWHERE.

@squirecam:

If you want to “re-balance” A&A because you feel its not fair, there’s a simple way. Its a bid. With that bid, the allies can place x # of units directly in India, which may be sufficient to hold it. Perhaps. Or Perhaps not. But at some #, X + UK IC purchase will hold.

Part of the problem is not only trying to achieve a balanced game, but adding variability in viable strategies.  If we always play the one ultimate strategy because it’s the only one that works, then the difference becomes who gets what dice and when.

If A&A comes to that, I’d rather play Yathzee then.  It’s less set up and takes less time.  About the same startegic value too.

@squirecam:

Rather than find a bid to equal the pacific game, CJ places an IC (which if in Canada, does nothing for historical flavor). Except that the same result can be done with a sufficient pre-placed India bid, which then doesnt absolutely require UK to defend the IC, but still alows it to be built.

But still this does nothing to answer the supposed issue - Japan vs russia.

Additional units are NOT equal to a reduced price IC that can place units on UK1.  So your comparision of bid units to the IC is baseless.

@squirecam:

The simple fix I proposed will solve that issue, and not require tech changes, a “1/2 IC” idea, or any other haphazzard idea. Its two clearly historical rules, which is what this topic was supposed to be about.

simple rule change?  yes it’s simple.
Reduce game play strategic options?  Yes it does.
And for that reason I dislike it.  It may be a great simple fix, but I do not prefer to be told that I can not do a strategic move.  Penalize me or reward the opponent, but do not outlaw.

Also, why are your rule proposed changes any better than the 1/2 IC and/or tech changes {or any other for that sake}?  Because you think they increase the historical accuracy better than the ones proposed in this thread?

@squirecam:

So either change what A&A strategic is supposed to fix (History), or lets start discussing actual history fixes rather than stuff having nothing to do with Historical accuracy.

You are too fixated one one comment about C_J where he wishes ‘Increased Historical Accuracy’.  If the game is changed with these rules changes in only one aspect of historical accuracy, then these rules have INCREASED the HISTORICAL ACCURACY of the game.

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Also, You can drop that point in your replies to me.

[squirecam]

@axis_roll:

Additional units are NOT equal to a reduced price IC that can place units on UK1.  So your comparision of bid units to the IC is baseless.

Sure it is. India can have three units placed. If a “fair” bid is, for examples sake, a 10 bid, then India can have 2 inf and an art placed in India. Buying a “full” complex (15) is then a total of 15 IPC.

In this CJ scenario, India buys a 1/2 IC (8 IPC), plus the cost of units (2inf/art) which is 18 IPC. If UK wanted a “full” IC, it costs them another 7 IPC, for a total of 25.

It’s much more reasonable to have a 10 bid (placed in India) and a fully functional IC, then a 1/2 IC which still costs UK 3-8 more IPC.

In order to “fully utilize” the IC, the CJ idea is less cost effective then the simple fix, a bid.

simple rule change?  yes it’s simple.
Reduce game play strategic options?  Yes it does.
And for that reason I dislike it.  It may be a great simple fix, but I do not prefer to be told that I can not do a strategic move.  Penalize me or reward the opponent, but do not outlaw.

Actually, the IC in Canada does nothing to increase strategic options. The India IC, once built, forced UK to defend it, actually decreasing options. If you just put bid units there, you could, depending on circumstances, withdraw them and not be forced to defend an IC.

You are too fixated one one comment about C_J where he wishes ‘Increased Historical Accuracy’.  If the game is changed with these rules changes in only one aspect of historical accuracy, then these rules have INCREASED the HISTORICAL ACCURACY of the game.
Also, You can drop that point in your replies to me.

Yes, because those were the parameters he created for “A&A strategic”. Nevertheless, I wont raise it with you again.

[axis_roll]

@squirecam:

@axis_roll:

Additional units are NOT equal to a reduced price IC that can place units on UK1.  So your comparision of bid units to the IC is baseless.

Sure it is. India can have three units placed. If a “fair” bid is, for examples sake, a 10 bid, then India can have 2 inf and an art placed in India. Buying a “full” complex (15) is then a total of 15 IPC.

In this CJ scenario, India buys a 1/2 IC (8 IPC), plus the cost of units (2inf/art) which is 18 IPC. If UK wanted a “full” IC, it costs them another 7 IPC, for a total of 25.

You have presupposed that UK will always invest the extra $7.  There is no need if all they ever want to drop is ground units in India.

@squirecam:

It’s much more reasonable to have a 10 bid (placed in India) and a fully functional IC, then a 1/2 IC which still costs UK 3-8 more IPC.

again, the assumption of a need to make the IC fully functional.  This is an assumption that you can not always make.  Certainly it is an option for UK, but not a necessity.

@squirecam:

In order to “fully utilize” the IC, the CJ idea is less cost effective then the simple fix, a bid.

I am going to call you Captain Fixate.  :evil:

You hone in on one issue and drill it into the ground.  Perhaps the A&A Dentist might be better  :wink:

---

Fun nicknames aside, and avoiding the purely cost aspect of bid versus IC (1/2, full, whatever…)
an IC allows ADDITIONAL units turn after turn whereas a bid is a one time placement of units

THIS is the key point to be made that differentiates a BID from an IC.

[squirecam]

@axis_roll:

Additional units are NOT equal to a reduced price IC that can place units on UK1.  So your comparision of bid units to the IC is baseless.

You have presupposed that UK will always invest the extra $7.  There is no need if all they ever want to drop is ground units in India.

again, the assumption of a need to make the IC fully functional.  This is an assumption that you can not always make.  Certainly it is an option for UK, but not a necessity.

Forget the “extra” 7 IPC, as its still 18 to 15 for the 1/2 IC and units vs the bid units. You dont need the extra 7 to make the bid system more worthwile.

[axis_roll]

@squirecam:

@axis_roll:

Additional units are NOT equal to a reduced price IC that can place units on UK1.  So your comparision of bid units to the IC is baseless.

You dont need the extra 7 to make the bid system more worthwile.

No one said a bid system was not worth while

I thought the discussion was about the BID and a pre placed IC as the same thing.  I was saying they’re two different things and you really can’t compare them.

But somehow you feel they are, and I am not sure I can see any arguements from you that can persuade me that an ‘apple’ is the same as an ‘orange’

I will repeat my thoughts:  Assuming they are both priced the same at a grocery store, an Apple {“pre-placed, one time bid”} is not the same as an Orange {“limited IC that can place units the same turn it is bought and mobilized”}

[squirecam]

@axis_roll:

Additional units are NOT equal to a reduced price IC that can place units on UK1.  So your comparision of bid units to the IC is baseless.

I thought the discussion was about the BID and a pre placed IC as the same thing.  I was saying they’re two different things and you really can’t compare them.

But somehow you feel they are, and I am not sure I can see any arguements from you that can persuade me that an ‘apple’ is the same as an ‘orange’

I will repeat my thoughts:  Assuming they are both priced the same at a grocery store, an Apple {“pre-placed, one time bid”} is not the same as an Orange {“limited IC that can place units the same turn it is bought and mobilized”}

The 1/2 IC is unnecessary. The bid system does the same thing, only cheaper. Having the bid units there, which can be moved R1 rather than just placed, adds additional benefit. So the “fix” doesnt fix anything a bid doesnt do better.

And when something is better than another, you can compare them. The bid system is clearly better.

[axis_roll]

@squirecam:

@axis_roll:

Additional units are NOT equal to a reduced price IC that can place units on UK1.  So your comparision of bid units to the IC is baseless.

I thought the discussion was about the BID and a pre placed IC as the same thing.  I was saying they’re two different things and you really can’t compare them.

But somehow you feel they are, and I am not sure I can see any arguements from you that can persuade me that an ‘apple’ is the same as an ‘orange’

I will repeat my thoughts:  Assuming they are both priced the same at a grocery store, an Apple {“pre-placed, one time bid”} is not the same as an Orange {“limited IC that can place units the same turn it is bought and mobilized”}

The 1/2 IC is unnecessary. The bid system does the same thing, only cheaper. Having the bid units there, which can be moved R1 rather than just placed, adds additional benefit. So the “fix” doesnt fix anything a bid doesnt do better.

Again you state your opinion other than facts.

An IC adds unit that AFFECTs the whole game, not just the first round.  That means they do NOT do the same thing.

I guess to you, an APPLE and an ORANGE ARE the same.

@squirecam:

And when something is better than another, you can compare them. The bid system is clearly better.

Again, your opinion.  And everyone is entitled to their own.

I am tired of trying to ask you to explain to me how a bid is the same (but better!) than an IC.

All you do is restate that one system is BETTER than the other.

---

I’m done with this discussion, it is going nowhere.

[Imperious Leader]

A bid is more flexible, while a 15 IPC factory in India is totally arbitrary and based on nothing when the results of AA50 games do not indicate any need to give the British player this to make the game balanced. Rather it is just an opinion based on somebodies playing style while the results or ‘after action reports’ do not indicate this need at all.

It is not like AA50 is imbalanced unless the British player “gets a fixed 15 IPC factory in India at game start”

If the value of the allied bid is proven to be at 15 IPC, then allow the Allies to decide what they want to do to allow more variation is strategy, then to stick them with some line of play that forces them into something they don’t want to do.

If you want “what if” a factory in India for UK is non consistent with that philosophy. Rather let the allies decide what they will buy as the bid has worked before.

[axis_roll]

@Imperious:

A bid is more flexible, while a 15 IPC factory in India is totally arbitrary and based on nothing when the results of AA50 games do not indicate any need to give the British player this to make the game balanced. Rather it is just an opinion based on somebodies playing style while the results or ‘after action reports’ do not indicate this need at all.

Let’s ask this question.  What would the allies do with a 15 bid?  Hmm.  Help UK in Africa (Egypt) and Russia in europe to defeat Germany.  Why?  To help an already effective and most commonly used KGF playout.

sure, you COULD place the bid elsewhere, but IF YOU WERE PLAYING TO WIN THE GAME (not for fun or game play testing), the allies would MOST likely follow the Revised game plan of KGF(KIF).

Why can I say this with such certainty?  Because Godzilla (70+ IPC Japan) eventually will kill you if you don’t get Germany first.  AA50 playout is doomed to be as predictable as AAR in a tourney situation.

@Imperious:

It is not like AA50 is imbalanced unless the British player “gets a fixed 15 IPC factory in India at game start”

I am not so sure Cousin_Joe’s main reasoning behind the limited IC idea was meant for strictly balance.  I believe the real main reason is to open up other strategies in AA50.  The way AA50 is now, unless UK (and USA) get some pressure on the western Axis powers, they will grow too strong to be conquered (if they haven’t taken out Russia first!)  So this limits the allied strategic options.

Making an IC in India / Australia a VIABLE option serves to open up the allied option of trying to go after Japan first/primarily (as well as add balance to a game heavily weighted in the Axis favor)

@Imperious:

If the value of the allied bid is proven to be at 15 IPC, then allow the Allies to decide what they want to do to allow more variation is strategy, then to stick them with some line of play that forces them into something they don’t want to do.

There is no forcing UK to buy an IC, just like there is no forcing the Allies to place their 15 bid units in India.

@Imperious:

If you want “what if” a factory in India for UK is non consistent with that philosophy. Rather let the allies decide what they will buy as the bid has worked before.

See above discussion about just WHERE that bid will go, and you will realize that there will become the optimal placement for the bid.

---

Look, I am not saying that the bid system is bad.  Is is good and simple and it does add balance to the game.  But I think a bid is lacking in it’s ability to add variation in game play. Why?  Because the bid level will never get high enough to make a huge difference in the pacific/asian theatre.  In the end, it will only serve to strengthen the best allied game plan.

If you try to think outside the box of using only a bid, the IC placement can give the allies another VIABLE strategic option of in the Pacific theatre.

Remember, these are two different concepts to altering imbalance that is inherant in 1941 scenario with NOs.  The IC has other characteristics to it beyond what a mere placement of additional units does to change the game.

---

One last thought.  Has anyone besides C_J tried this idea?  I am defending it based merely on the idea that playout variability will be increased.

I intend to game play test this next week.

It’s easy to speculate on an idea that changes the game, it’s another to prove it through several games of testing.  THEN we can make better judgements on how good an idea is.

[Imperious Leader]

Let’s ask this question.  What would the allies do with a 15 bid?  Hmm.  Help UK in Africa (Egypt) and Russia in europe to defeat Germany.  Why?  To help an already effective and most commonly used KGF playout.

alot more variations in strategy than forcing the allies to build a factory in India. Soviets could have 3 tanks, or a fighter in 1941 or gasp a bomber, i could think of a million ideas like reinforcing Egypt or buying another ship to protect my UK BB. I could build a better navy for USA and possibly stop the japanese from attacking the pac fleet?  I could put alot of chinese infantry on the map and make it difficult for japan to wipe them out. How 5 infantry and protecting the flying tigers sound?

I think i could list a million ideas and to argue that a bid is less flexible than some factory with special rules ( only for it) now your talking of adding more when you can get more with a more simple idea.

Also, i think it is a mistake to assume the AAR ideas work as well as you elude in AA50. IN fact, Their is no KIF in AAR, so i am not sure why you brought it up. KIF is something new and can be its own strategy to defeat the Germans.

I can only say based on my own games and the results of countless reading about how playing AA50 progressed and various strategy articles posted.

If you want more strategy then just make no rules like a fixed factory with special rules in india idea. Rather perhaps each nation gets 12 IPC to start to buy something new, or perhaps change out its starting positions with different units, but spending no more than an extra 12 IPC… this would add alot of new ideas to the game. In 1941 Russia is totally without any offense, while in both Italy is kinda weak. Id like to remove the usual ideas that are programmed moves on J1 or G1.

There is no forcing UK to buy an IC, just like there is no forcing the Allies to place their 15 bid units in India.

Well then just say instead of this UK factory thing… the allies or axis bid for game balance if players feel it is not ( follow normal rules regarding this)

Because Godzilla (70+ IPC Japan) eventually will kill you if you don’t get Germany first.

Their are other ideas that can stop this ( e.g. 5 Chinese infantry protecting that fighter?)

I have no idea why you say this:

Look, I am not saying that the bid system is bad.  Is is good and simple and it does add balance to the game.  But I think a bid is lacking in it’s ability to add variation in game play. Why?  Because the bid level will never get high enough to make a huge difference in the pacific/asian theatre.  In the end, it will only serve to strengthen the best allied game plan.

as we both can see the bid can be a factory in India, as much as 5 new Chinese infantry, their is no way to make the claim that only a UK factory is the ONLY MEASURE of getting balanced play, with the bid as less desirable because the bid can be anything including this factory. Also, special rules for this factory just add nothing to the game. IN fact if the claim that a UK factory was the ‘fix’ for the balance ( of which i think the game is just fine because i don’t play with NO’s)  how can you possibly say this with the restricted factory builds? That would be making the claim that the game is imbalanced unless you alter the rules for the India factory only and give this thing to UK before the game starts?

I think the only problem with AA50 is the lack of Chinese infantry. If you just use that China Mod or round up Chinese builds, or have China move with the Soviets so they can get out of harms way, you got alot toward balance. Perhaps giving the Soviets something in 1941 like a standard pact with Japan ( cant attack for x turns or they get some ‘far east force’) you protected the Soviets from slaughter. I have played with some of these ideas and i find it good against a strong Japanese player.

Have a look at the China Mod.

[axis_roll]

@Imperious:

Let’s ask this question.  What would the allies do with a 15 bid?  Hmm.  Help UK in Africa (Egypt) and Russia in europe to defeat Germany.  Why?  To help an already effective and most commonly used KGF playout.

alot more variations in strategy than forcing the allies to build a factory in India. Soviets could have 3 tanks, or a fighter in 1941 or gasp a bomber, i could think of a million ideas like reinforcing Egypt or buying another ship to protect my UK BB. I could build a better navy for USA and possibly stop the japanese from attacking the pac fleet?  I could put alot of chinese infantry on the map and make it difficult for japan to wipe them out. How 5 infantry and protecting the flying tigers sound?

I guess you missed my point about bids never getting to 15.  I would NEVER give anything higher than 10 to the allies, ever! Therefor your examples are moot points.

@Imperious:

Also, i think it is a mistake to assume the AAR ideas work as well as you elude in AA50. IN fact, Their is no KIF in AAR, so i am not sure why you brought it up. KIF is something new and can be its own strategy to defeat the Germans.

The allied fleet sitting in SZ12 and pushing units through north africa is the same in Revised and AA50.  It’s even MORE effective as Italy is weaker in AA50 AND it’s a capital so it’s a bigger prize.

@Imperious:

If you want more strategy then just make no rules like a fixed factory with special rules in india idea. Rather perhaps each nation gets 12 IPC to start to buy something new, or perhaps change out its starting positions with different units, but spending no more than an extra 12 IPC… this would add alot of new ideas to the game.

Sure, other new ideas are fine.  And these could probably work.  Why then are you knocking someone else’s ideas, specifically C_J’s linmited IC?

Because Godzilla (70+ IPC Japan) eventually will kill you if you don’t get Germany first.

@Imperious:

Their are other ideas that can stop this ( e.g. 5 Chinese infantry protecting that fighter?)

Yep, plenty of ideas, but it seems that yours are always better then C_J’s.

@Imperious:

I have no idea why you say this:

Look, I am not saying that the bid system is bad.  Is is good and simple and it does add balance to the game.  But I think a bid is lacking in it’s ability to add variation in game play. Why?  Because the bid level will never get high enough to make a huge difference in the pacific/asian theatre.  In the end, it will only serve to strengthen the best allied game plan.

@Imperious:

as we both can see the bid can be a factory in India, as much as 5 new Chinese infantry, their is no way to make the claim that only a UK factory is the ONLY MEASURE of getting balanced play, with the bid as less desirable because the bid can be anything including this factory. Also, special rules for this factory just add nothing to the game. IN fact if the claim that a UK factory was the ‘fix’ for the balance ( of which i think the game is just fine because i don’t play with NO’s)  how can you possibly say this with the restricted factory builds? That would be making the claim that the game is imbalanced unless you alter the rules for the India factory only and give this thing to UK before the game starts?

Guess you missed the part about variability in allied strategic options

IT’S NOT JUST ABOUT BALANCE!

Also, how arrogant and ignorant of you to state that “special rules for this factory just add nothing to the game”.  Do you really fancy yourself to be the end-all of know-all of AA50 rule modifications (a.k.a house rules)?

I am sorry to inform you, but you are not.  In fact, no one is.

@Imperious:

I think the only problem with AA50 is the lack of Chinese infantry. If you just use that China Mod or round up Chinese builds, or have China move with the Soviets so they can get out of harms way, you got alot toward balance. Perhaps giving the Soviets something in 1941 like a standard pact with Japan ( cant attack for x turns or they get some ‘far east force’) you protected the Soviets from slaughter. I have played with some of these ideas and i find it good against a strong Japanese player.

Certainly Adding Chinese unis can slow Japan down.  Does this enable UK to realistically fight japan?  Not likely.  Japan can just go around China (north or south) and do a slow push on china.  This happens in the 1942 scenario.

And I admit I have not looked at the China mods that people have proposed, but if they include Chinese units can leave China territories, then those mods are just as crazy, wrong, or whatever you gents seem to keep calling the limited IC change.

[squirecam]

@axis_roll:

And I admit I have not looked at the China mods that people have proposed, but if they include Chinese units can leave China territories, then those mods are just as crazy, wrong, or whatever you gents seem to keep calling the limited IC change.

Put 2 infantry and 1 artillery in India as a bid. UK1 then you purchase an IC in India. This is 15 IPC.

Buy a 1/2 IC and the same units, and it is 18 IPC.

Are you seriously going to argue that a Fully functional IC which costs less is not better than a 1/2 IC which cost UK more?

Go ahead. Please show me how a more costly/more limiited option is better than the bid/full IC.

And not to defend IL…. but I find it funny that you attack IL for disputing CJ as arrogance, when CJ basically called Larry Harris an idiot designer, and you said nothing.

Perhaps people should watch the attacks and focus on the arguments and not the person.

[Imperious Leader]

I guess you missed my point about bids never getting to 15.

Good then the idea of a 15 IPC factory in India is not needed.

The allied fleet sitting in SZ12 and pushing units through north africa is the same in Revised and AA50.  It’s even MORE effective as Italy is weaker in AA50 AND it’s a capital so it’s a bigger prize.

I think you missed my point. Italy is not a player is revised. They have their own turn and the double turn of the allies is gone in AA50. Italy is a can opener and NOW in aa50, those revised ideas have little play because many more options are offered, while others are closed because of this six player. You can now attempt to fight Germany by way of attacking Italy, which is not a viable option in AAR ( for the most part)

Why then are you knocking someone else’s ideas, specifically C_J’s linmited IC?

I don’t think they will work because the idea is not balancing the game in the proper area that may need balanced. Its not as fact that AA50 is imbalanced, It may be a fact if playing 1941 with the NO’s, but the blanket claim that AA50 needs this free IC is a claim that has no merit. I don’t care who made it up. It not a needed thing to add to AA50.

If anything the problem is China, which is undermanned and static. to coin a phrase its nothing more than an ‘ACME wall’, when it should be dynamic and have plenty of forces. IN the war they fielded 560 divisions and these are not represented. The first duty to address the game is to get them help, not UK.

I find it astonishing that the conclusion of addressing AA50 would bring up some bogus UK IC as a solution and totally ignore China?

Yep, plenty of ideas, but it seems that yours are always better then C_J’s.

I think you don’t need to make this personal right?  The reference should be to look at the solutions offered by others and see how they match or at least the common problems people have discovered. Then you can gain a full understanding of “what the people have discovered is needed to fix AA50”  I think you will find the solution is most likely China and not a free 15 IPC factory ( though your bids don’t allow a high 15 IPC bid.

[Imperious Leader]

trying to address the issues with AA50.  Specifically, these were:

1. Increased Historical Accuracy
2. Increased Variation of Playout
3. Increased Strategic Options

If this is the goal, then the UK factory is not as sufficient than allowing a bid ( which can be anything that can improve variation/options)

If you want realism, you would be addressing China which is not realistic. They melt is two turns. How is it possible to make historical accuracy and not address them?

AS far as i can tell you just gave the allies 15 IPC factory and imbalanced the game. If you want more realism, you fix China and perhaps introduce minor factories ( from AAP40) and give both sides a few of these…just one idea… another is alter the setup to preclude the standard turn 1 moves… of third… offer an alteration of setup up to X IPC. This would generate great changes is play than to just say “take your magic factory and the game totally alters everywhere”

[oztea]

Just introduce minor factories
Karellia factory becomes minor
Caccauss factory becomes minor
France gets minor factory
Eastern Canada gets minor factory
Australia gets minor factory
Manchuria gets minor factory
you could give india a minor factory OR do what I do, allow ONE Victory City per turn to act as a factory that can mobilize 1 infantry that turn.
Add 3 victory cites for each side (Helsinki, Belgrade, Saigon) (Vladivostock, Cape Town, Cairo)

[Imperious Leader]

Yes and make it equal for both sides.

ON the VC add Cairo and Polesti but keep the same VC winning total. Makes for shorter game. The other cities you mentioned dont really seem like places the axis needed to capture to ‘win’ whatever that means.