Cyan

[Jennifer]

Holy, hell, did Switch actually defend one of my tactic posts?

Quick, someone check the space time continue-um, I think it might be ripping!

Anyway yes, the Americans and British are losing on the deal, but Germany’s losing faster.  America loses 8 units, England loses 8 units, Germany loses 10-12 units, Russia loses no units.

Of course, this is later in the game when Africa is secure from Germany so that England’s earning at least 24 IPC a round. (Hopefully more, I like 28 IPC a round myself, 6 infantry, 2 armor makes a good punch if accompanied by BBs.)

Eventually, I have found, Germany starts losing tanks.  It’s a different method of bleeding them which costs you more money individually then Germany, but as a team it costs Germany more then any individual nation.

[trihero]

Anyway yes, the Americans and British are losing on the deal, but Germany’s losing faster.  America loses 8 units, England loses 8 units, Germany loses 10-12 units, Russia loses no units.

Well, if Germany’s stacked to instantly kill 8 units in one roll, then it’s more like 6-7 units. 10-12 is too high of an estimate; that might be true for the first time you bang on Germany’s door but after that he’ll be like “no more” and stack it higher.

But let’s just say your estimate is correct. That’s 30 German IPCs for 64 Allied IPCs. The TUV of the Axis is closing by 30 per turn, which isn’t good.

(Hopefully more, I like 28 IPC a round myself, 6 infantry, 2 armor makes a good punch if accompanied by BBs.)

That’s not a very good punch, that’s 2-3 hits if Germany has enough defenses to immediately obliterate you.

It’s true that it requires high stacking with 20+ units for Germany to instantly obliterate a force of 8 men, but is it wise to attack a stack like that? Germany is replacing the units it’s losing and has money left to spare, that doesn’t seem like a good trade to me. Germany isn’t going downhill anytime soon, and even if 15 turns down the road you manage to wear him out, the UK/US will have no units left in Europe (because you’re not building up units at all, you’re suiciding them to kill half the units you sent) while Japan easily ran Moscow over and has a huge pile of inf/tanks ready to rumble.

[Jennifer]

Honestly, I wouldn’t use it if Germany had the punch to all but guarantee they win in one round of combat.

If they had 15-20 units, I would.  15-20 units are not going to get 8 hits every time, doubt even most of the time.  Meanwhile, it’s only a 1:1 attack for the allies. (15-20 defenders vs 16 attackers + 2 to 4 battleships.)

[trihero]

Just make it 2 battleships, unless you honestly purchase another battleship with both powers.

And while it looks 1:1, you have to consider split attackers, which significantly puts a damper in the amount of units you are killing.

If there are 20 German infantry, let’s just say they kill 7 units (I would normally count 6 but you like to go pessimistic). That leaves 1 arm with 50% chance of killing something. The first round with 4 inf 4 arm 1 bb kills 3.2 units, then the tank leftover kills another 0.5 units, for 3.7 units killed. That’s 4 units killed per that power, so 8 units total.

16 units to kill 8 units is a 2:1 ratio, and that’s a pretty tough sell.

[Guest]

And what then are the odds with the same attack force for the follow up attack by the United States?
No reinforce, Germany less the units killed by UK, and an equivalent US force landing…

[trihero]

16 inf let’s say that’s 5 hits, they take 4 hits, so now it’s 12 inf vs 3 units. 12 inf kill the 3 units, the 3 units deal 1-2 on the way out. So the Germans take in total about 9-10 casualties in inf for the price of 16 Allied units which are a mix of inf/arm. I’m not seeing how this is generally a desirable strategy, as you’re burning your TUV lead by 30 per turn and making about the same headway on land as in the case where you didn’t suicide.

I would rather make headway on land and not burn up the TUV lead, which you do by not suiciding.

[Guest]

Now, here is the thing…

You don;t do this when Germany is stacked heavy.

You do it when Germany is stacked modest…  15 or so units, a mix of INF and stack anchors.

If they are stacked heavier, then you work around the north side (Norway, Karelia, Eastern, and flow forces toward Russia to take the pressure off the German push on Moscow).

Like most strategies, it is not an “always use, always works” strat, it is an opportunistic strat that you utilize when Germany has tried to hold too much territory and still press on Moscow.

[trihero]

it is an opportunistic strat that you utilize when Germany has tried to hold too much territory and still press on Moscow.

That makes more sense, see I knew there were some significant strings attached!

[Guest]

There are ALWAYS strings.

This game is too complex to create “always work” strategies.  Hell you could not do that for Classic with a typical bid, and that was a far simpler game…

[trihero]

It’s just that it’s hard for me to justify in my mind throwing 64 IPCs to destroy 30 IPCs unless you are making truly significant leaps in land territory to make up for that difference quickly.

[Guest]

Drop the number of INF in Germany and re-run the sim.

Then I think you will see the point.

[Nix]

thought this topic was about Cyan?

[Jennifer]

It’s always hard to spend more then your opponent.  But if the allies are earning more then Germany (ie America + England >= Germany’s income + Russia) and Germany’s got 3 smaller stacks of 15-25 units in E. Europe, Germany and W. Europe, it can work out.

Bear in mind, that in the circumstances I, personally, would use it, Germany’s earning in the 30s to low 40s, so losing 10 infantry a round is almost their entire purchase.

For example, Germany has 20 units: 15 Infantry, 3 Armor, 2 Fighters.

England attacks with 4 Infantry, 4 Armor and a Battleship.

Result: Germany down 3 to 5 infantry (1-2 rounds of combat)

America attacks with 4 Infantry, 4 Armor and a Battleship. (Takes 4X4 transport system)

Result: Germany down 3 to 5 infantry (1-2 rounds of combat)

That’s just average, you may get lucky or unlucky.  Either way, however, Germany’s lost a huge chunk of their army and cannot stack sufficiently.

Now, I’m of course assuming those are the numbers.  There are circumstances when it would work a lot better or a low worse.

What if Germany only had 10 infantry, 3 armor, 2 fighters?  Or no fighters and only the infantry and armor?

You have to make conscious decisions.  But the idea is to bleed Germany.  It’s like SBRing only you take more away from Germany and don’t risk high value bombers!

[trihero]

Just remember it cuts both ways, just as Germany isn’t stacking as efficiently, neither is UK nor US. Eventually you will have to try to take the capital and don’t be surprised if you have nothing in Europe to stack with if you continually suicide like that.

[Jennifer]

If you can keep Germany’s stacks down, then Russia can eat some of their land so they eventually start being unable to keep their stacks up, then , hopefully, you can make a lightning strike with England and America to take Berlin using the fighters and bombers you have not yet been risking.

But as I, and Switch, have said, it’s really situationally dependent.  This is NOT going to work in most games, I’d even say it wont work except when you’ve been relatively lucky for a few rounds.

[mateooo]

um… im bored waiting for my opponents to go, so I thought id add my 2 cents.

As the allies, I would rather have 16 guys in EEU, WEU, LEN, or NOR than 0 guys and 6-8 dead Germans.

that is all,