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AARHE 1939 map and rule files


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Map file:
    2008-3-4 http://www.mediafire.com/?yc0yxc4bntp

    Note: this is the latest map file.

    Map file with unit icons:
    2008-2-14 http://www.mediafire.com/?7ktjhmlpojm

    Rules file:
    2008-02-14 http://home.exetel.com.au/cometo/20080214_AARHE_1939.doc

    Set up:
    2008-2-13 http://www.mediafire.com/?1hzno3tj1oo


  • Customizer

    OK, just to summarise my objections to the map.  I’ve said all of this befiore and I know you won’t change any of it now; just so it’s on record.

    Still not sure of the date: if it’s September 1939 what is the BEF doing in France and why is the east of “Poland” called “Soviet occupied”?  If it’s after the Polish war why is Poland coloured neutral?

    My objection to the use of “Vichy France” and “Free France” before 1940 is known to you.

    Berlin is where Poland should be Poland is where White Russia should be White Russia is where Western Territory should be Western Territory is where Moscow should be.

    Bavarian Alps is a bit local, Central Europe is better as this includes the Carpathians so is still mountainous.

    Persia should be Iran.

    R de o should border Algeria/Morocco OR not exist at all.

    Levant States is just wrong.  They were not states but a French mandate, and Lebanon was just part of Syria at this time.

    T-J should have Red sea border.

    India should be at least 3 territories.

    Ceylon should be included as it was an important naval base.

    Hopei should be Japanese.  That’s why the KMT are concentrated in Szechuan; they were driven there by the fall of Nanking.

    WTF is that factory doing in Tibet?  Where are the other factories?  Australia is a much stronger candidate than South Africa or India for an IC.

    Marianas REALLY doesn’t look anything like that.

    If Argentina is mountainous so then should be Peru.

    Where are the Spanish and Turkish and Swedish (etc) armies?


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Still not sure of the date: if it’s September 1939 what is the BEF doing in France and why is the east of “Poland” called “Soviet occupied”?  If it’s after the Polish war why is Poland coloured neutral?

    ++++Thats old. DL the most current information. I already made the point that old setup was just for ideas. I don’t have the BEF in france. Why are you asking such things before you even view the latest files>?

    My objection to the use of “Vichy France” and “Free France” before 1940 is known to you.

    +++each has its own place and its accurate

    Berlin is where Poland should be Poland is where White Russia should be White Russia is where Western Territory should be Western Territory is where Moscow should be.

    ++++ this is so the territory will allow lots of pieces. The map is only a representation of the general situation. Look at your own maps and how they are drawn. They are more in need of help.

    Bavarian Alps is a bit local, Central Europe is better as this includes the Carpathians so is still mountainous.

    +++++ GERMANY IS central Europe. Hungary is too small for this map and Bulgaria was needed to plug the missing area ( i could not call it Greece or you would complain about that instead–- i know how you think)

    Persia should be Iran.

    ++++ both are accurate and i hate Iran. when you co-op my map for your self you can call it Vichy france.

    R de o should border Algeria/Morocco OR not exist at all.

    ++++ It cannot be left out because Spain may be a player. The border is not relevant to this games purpose.

    Levant States is just wrong.  They were not states but a French mandate, and Lebanon was just part of Syria at this time.

    +++++ its what it was called at this time . Buy no fewer than 6 maps printed from this period then have your own look and see. Levant states is what it was called with Syria is small case in ()

    T-J should have Red sea border.

    +++++ that is not a major port and you know it. It cannot be represented in a map of this scale. TJ is a useless territory anyway its only purpose is to make it harder to get to Caucasus from Africa. Look at the ideas behind the decision. You already complained half a million times about how in some cases people put too many islands on their maps and now you complain about the opposite… their is no objective truth to this. Its more about the maps purpose that decides it.

    India should be at least 3 territories.

    ++++ it will fall too quickly, The idea of Burma et al is to also make buffer states to help protect it.

    Ceylon should be included as it was an important naval base.

    ++++ naval bases are not part of this game>> where have you been?

    Hopei should be Japanese.  That’s why the KMT are concentrated in Szechuan; they were driven there by the fall of Nanking.

    ++++++Hopei is not only hopei Hopei represents 1 million other territory’s labeled Hopei… can you understand this?
    Should every infantry represent individual people? NO they represent a corps sized formation. The territories are the same thing ( more than one territory bound by a single name)

    WTF is that factory doing in Tibet?  Where are the other factories?  Australia is a much stronger candidate than South Africa or India for an IC.

    ++++ after play testing it is a must to help protect China from falling.Read the rules and come back to this. again you are commenting w/o looking at every thing as a whole.

    Marianas REALLY doesn’t look anything like that.
    +++++ and none of your maps look like the globe either. But i use your same excuse for the aesthetics as you do: “its only a representation”

    If Argentina is mountainous so then should be Peru.

    +++++ considered. Argentina is too large and the mountains are mostly in the south… so not enough to make the entire place " a mountain"

    Where are the Spanish and Turkish and Swedish (etc) armies?

    ++++ look at the file. good lord!


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    OK again in the pursuit of perfection i have this:

    http://www.mediafire.com/?bqjw3l3tmyk

    http://www.mediafire.com/upload_complete.php?id=5floyjbsysv

    this includes the new set up sheets.


  • Customizer

    OK, I’ll find time to read through this properly before further comment.

    But sorry, I still don’t understand which Chinese controlled territories are included in Hopei.  As far as I can see ALL of this area (as defined on the map) was firmly under Japanese occupation.

    Tibet IC is hard to buy; this must be about the least industrialised place on earth bar the polar ice caps.

    Unless you have the famous book Heavy weapons production in Lhasa 1936-1945.





  • @Flashman:

    But sorry, I still don’t understand which Chinese controlled territories are included in Hopei.

    yeah I mentioned it before but if there is time touch up the Chinese territory borders
    like move Tibet south and shrunk himalayas



  • I am still confused about sz 14 15 and the little sea in sz 16

    can you attack Balkans from sz 14 ?

    I think you should not

    I think the little sea must disappear, and sz 15 cover all water east of Greece.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    yeah I mentioned it before but if there is time touch up the Chinese territory borders
    like move Tibet south and shrunk Himalayas

    This was done. (I shrunk Himalayas).  Also, Japan is limited to capturing only one territory in China per turn. So that saves the Chinese Territory IC for at least 3 turns. Otherwise they will be only able to build infantry as per normal rules. If the Factory was in Chunking it would fall on J2. Id just like to see a little more flexibility for the Chinese player. A factory is only in this case a center for accumulating equipment away from the combat zone. You cant have everything in a highly abstracted game to spec because then you involve all sorts of exceptions and it bogs down things. This is the best compromise.

    Playtest it. It can always be changed but my placement is based on playing it out.

    I am still confused about sz 14 15 and the little sea in sz 16

    can you attack Balkans from sz 14 ?

    Its clearly delineated where each zone is adjacent from. AS you will read in the rules invasions in mountains are possible, but at a limited rate of 2 land units from each SZ.

    for example: Norway can be technically invaded by 3 SZ for a total of 6 land units, but note the cost of invasions is 1 IPC for each unit involved… so it would cost 6 IPC to even get to attack and this would take 6 turns to get back the ‘investment’ … thus the model is quite realistic and Norway will not be bothered.
    Plus defending units get a +1 defense modifier, and defending artillery fire first.

    Its hidden brilliance IMO.

    In France the invasion will be much more important ( being a huge battle rather then a million tiny invasions  throughout the game)


  • Customizer

    My take on China is to scrap their factory and let them place infantry in any Chinese held Chinese territory (this can include the likes of Manchuria if liberated). As long as all the inland territories are mountainous this gives Japan a real headache as Chinese infantry can spring up anywhere, whereas if China can only produce at a factory it becomes a pretty obvious Japanese strategy to take it out.
    This reflects reality in so far as occupying the whole of China just wasn’t economically worthwhile for Japan, as the natives would just retreat further into the interior and still be able to fight back, albeit only with infantry and Allied supplied equipment.



  • Shouldn’t Eire be more towards the Axis side.  To my knowledge Ireland hated the UK.  To my knowledge they would have helped Germany in an operation sea lion battle.

    Other than that, from what I have seen it looks pretty good to me.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    My take on China is to scrap their factory and let them place infantry in any Chinese held Chinese territory (this can include the likes of Manchuria if liberated).

    +++Please read the rules. This is already the case under AARHE. The factory allows building non- infantry units

    As long as all the inland territories are mountainous this gives Japan a real headache as Chinese infantry can spring up anywhere, whereas if China can only produce at a factory it becomes a pretty obvious Japanese strategy to take it out.

    +++Both sides are limited to taking one territory per turn ( population control issues)

    This reflects reality in so far as occupying the whole of China just wasn’t economically worthwhile for Japan, as the natives would just retreat further into the interior and still be able to fight back, albeit only with infantry and Allied supplied equipment.

    +++ uk can send 3 IPC of aid as long as certain territories are under Chinese /uk control… via burma road.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    forgot to mention: added Crete island  and Peru mountains.



  • @Imperious:

    Its hidden brilliance IMO.

    IMO now that there is a cost associated with amphibious mountainous invasion we should scrap the 2 land units per SZ.
    Because the first models the situation whereas the latter is an arbitrary limit.

    @Imperious:

    +++Both sides are limited to taking one territory per turn ( population control issues)

    Not sure about a limit to how many Chinese territories can be liberated per turn.
    I feel the limit can be applied to Axis, USSR and UK but not US (unless Chinese forces separately represented from US).

    If possible I would prefer we not use the W@W style (a long string of situational rules).



  • 2007-10-02 PNG version
    http://www.mediafire.com/?d32ci3ckcik

    still have to sort out the desert terrain
    *if Sahara is impassible then word it and colour it like Himalayas
    *are we doing anything to the desert upkeep rule? cos Inner Mongolia is desert


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    still have to sort out the desert terrain
    *if Sahara is impassible then word it and colour it like Himalayas
    *are we doing anything to the desert upkeep rule? cos Inner Mongolia is desert

    It is (has the same pattern) as Himalayas.

    Up keep rule applies to Mongolia, except the neutral does not pay up keep.

    what changes then do you want?


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    IMO now that there is a cost associated with amphibious mountainous invasion we should scrap the 2 land units per SZ.
    Because the first models the situation whereas the latter is an arbitrary limit.

    The cost addresses a real sizable cost for undertaking these operations

    and the second case is reflective of the limitations imposed by terrain.

    also in clear areas this 2 Units thing is not a requirement.

    I don’t see the issue. This is only about limitations on invading mountain territories of 2 units per adjacent sea zone. Norway can still be invaded by 6 land units…. once you own it you can land a lot more if you wanted.

    The 2 unit rule only applies to invasions of hostile territory with mountains.


  • Customizer

    @Nuclear:

    Shouldn’t Eire be more towards the Axis side.  To my knowledge Ireland hated the UK.  To my knowledge they would have helped Germany in an operation sea lion battle.

    Other than that, from what I have seen it looks pretty good to me.

    This is an American view, which always likes to portray the British and Irish at each other’s throats.  A large number of Irishmen volunteered for the UK forces, as they had done in WWI.  Attempts to create an “Irish Legion” of the S.S. came to nothing for lack of volunteers.  The IRA blew up a few housewives, but that’s all.

    The anti-British impression is gained from the Irish leader de Valera who refused the Allies use of Irish ports even when Churchill offered to create a united Ireland, and he famously visited the German embassy to sign a book of condolence for the death of Adolf Hitler.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Fixed a made more clear when ideas apply to 1939 or when they apply to 1942
    The map has Crete and Peru mountains.

    Rules:

    http://www.mediafire.com/?3bvbsmgvyxf

    http://www.mediafire.com/upload_complete.php?id=iybffxz34gy

    Map:

    http://www.mediafire.com/?0yemoi1wcwy

    http://www.mediafire.com/upload_complete.php?id=cyte4y0zcgw



  • *Problem with 2 per SZ is that Axis and Allies map isn’t drawn prefectly for that

    Norway has 4 SZs. SZ 3, 4, 5 and 6.
    Spain only has 2 SZs. 12 and 13.
    (India only has 1 SZ. Though it is not mountainous.)

    Secondly, we give Mountainous to territories based on overall terrain on the area. Not coastline.

    *Vichy France looks mountainous to me.
    http://www.solarnavigator.net/geography/geography_images/europe_physical_map.jpg

    *Sahara, put in “(Impassble)” just like Himalayas…or get rid of it in Himalayas

    *Switzerland, why is it white? no other neutral country is white…but I think white is better for neutral (we already have UK and Russia as grey/tan)

    *Himalaya/Tibet, is border tuning up still on the table? seems you haven’t moved it south yet

    *Iceland is probably mountainous

    *Just realise we forgot to add US and Canada territories. Would be more consistent. Probably 2 more Canada and 3 more US. Then the north part of Canada would be Snowy.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    *Problem with 2 per SZ is that Axis and Allies map isn’t drawn prefectly for that

    Norway has 4 SZs. SZ 3, 4, 5 and 6.
    Spain only has 2 SZs. 12 and 13.
    (India only has 1 SZ. Though it is not mountainous.)

    +++++ Yes in the case of Norway you even notice that the allies landed on many points on this nation, in part because of its limited capacity to receive large groups of men and material. Spain was only considered by Hitler for invasion ( Isabella) and no sea invasion was contemplated due also to tides and terrain.

    *Vichy France looks mountainous to me.
    http://www.solarnavigator.net/geography/geography_images/europe_physical_map.jpg

    +++++ the Allies didn’t have any trouble landing and if mountains were prominent then they would not make much progress. The most mountains are on the Franco- Italian border and buttressing the Swiss border both are which are not much of a factor. Their is a ridge of high mountains that separate the Vichy territory roughly in half, but both sides present large corridors that run north south which is the direction of travel.

    *Sahara, put in “(Impassable)” just like Himalayas…or get rid of it in Himalayas

    +++++ you told be to get rid of that… ill put it back in

    *Switzerland, why is it white? no other neutral country is white…but I think white is better for neutral (we already have UK and Russia as grey/tan)

    +++++ I will recolor it. White is not a good color for a map…too plain. The light beige is something better.
    White should be the “cannot enter” zones because black is ugly for maps.

    *Himalaya/Tibet, is border tuning up still on the table? seems you haven’t moved it south yet

    ++++++ move south? I reduced it as was asked. Now India looks larger considering i added Iran/Iraq
    “is border tuning up still on the table?”---- what does this mean?

    *Iceland is probably mountainous

    +++++ considered but thought the font would have to be really small… the question was “Is it really important to do this… does it add to the game?”  I could add it. sure.

    *Just realise we forgot to add US and Canada territories. Would be more consistent. Probably 2 more Canada and 3 more US. Then the north part of Canada would be Snowy.

    +++++ HUH??? hell no… USA is perfect. Canada ( eastern) could be separated, but id like to keep the shuck shuck in play for the allies. If too many territories it slows them down. Also, American railway system was second to none and less territories allows (modeling) of quicker movement. Another reason why the Soviets stayed more or less the same… due to her eastern territories tied together by the Trans-Siberian railway. The bottom line is to make new territories IF THEY ADD TO BETTER PLAY… this was the idea behind revised from the Milton Bradley edition. They made changes only to improve the playability of the map and NOT just to add willy nilly this and that for only realisms sake.

    A historical edition MUST still remain very playable… we cant just keep ADDING if it does not actually ADD to the game.



  • 2 per SZ mountainous landing
    Are you saying with all that coastline its still twice hard to hard in Spain then Norway?
    Maybe the limit shouldn’t be per SZ.

    And I reckon the limit should not be ALL you can use. But rather all you can use in FIRST cycle.
    If you survive first cycle you’ve secured the coast.
    (Similar to exisiting amphibious assault requirement of suriving first cycle with infantry only.)

    Vichy France
    Actually instead of a ridge of high mountains that separate the Vichy territory roughly in half, but both sides present large corridors that run north south which is the direction of travel looks more like corridor in the middle to me.

    With your reasoning I could see why Bulguria is mountainous but not Romania even though Romania is more mountainous.
    But if we use that method then Argentina and Italy whouldn’t be mountainous.

    We need to have a system.

    Sahara
    I think when I ask to remove “Impassible” back then I meant it is desert not impassible. But now Sahara is actually impassible.

    White for impassible
    Yeah I think thats at least better than the funny pattern.

    Colours
    Why is Russia no longer Redish brown? Now we have so many greyish colours.

    China
    Oh. You already tuned it? I can’t really tell. Looks the same compared to mid september version.
    our map
    http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/1545/chinaic8.png
    real map
    http://www.mythinglinks.org/ChinaSatelliteMap~NatGeo~chinam.jpg

    I am thinking Himalaya could be flattened. Then Tibet move a bit south. Kwangtung/FIC border also looks weird with Hainan belonging to FIC.
    Could draw (not new territory) Taiwan in for Kwangtung.

    Iceland mountainous
    It should do something. Unless its unlikely to be invaded. We added Iceland in the first place for…?

    New North American territories
    Better play is subjective.
    Easier to land in US is better play right?
    And for consistency the answer is obivous.
    I think it should add to the game.


  • Customizer

    My map as terrain:

    http://elbowmaster.com/web1/flashman/1942/CompleteJune1942_Terrain.jpg

    I made S. France and Balkans mountain, but could be either.  Depends on the general scheme of the map.

    Are Tibet and Mongolia mountains or desert?  Or both?

    I didn’t think much about terrain for islands as I have in mind the same rule i.e. +1 to defenders in mountains OR against amphibious assault, so island terrain makes no difference. Or should these modifiers be cumulative, i.e. +2 to defenders in Japan?


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    2 per SZ mountainous landing
    Are you saying with all that coastline its still twice hard to hard in Spain then Norway?
    Maybe the limit shouldn’t be per SZ.

    And I reckon the limit should not be ALL you can use. But rather all you can use in FIRST cycle.
    If you survive first cycle you’ve secured the coast.
    (Similar to exisiting amphibious assault requirement of suriving first cycle with infantry only.)

    well spain can only be invaded by two sides, but don’t think the same side would try it because in each case one of these SZ are in the influence of either Axis or Allies. I think the rule is simple and universal. what do you propose that is also a universal easy to use rule?

    With your reasoning I could see why Bulguria is mountainous but not Romania even though Romania is more mountainous.
    But if we use that method then Argentina and Italy whouldn’t be mountainous.

    Italy needs to be mountainous because losing that factory end the war for them, and it forces the allies to attack southern Italy which is mountain free. They have to now decide that Italy will be a multy turn affair like it was in the war.

    Sahara
    I think when I ask to remove “Impassible” back then I meant it is desert not impassible. But now Sahara is actually impassible.

    White for impassible
    Yeah I think thats at least better than the funny pattern.

    That pattern is a desert pattern for sand dunes. So what should Sahara become? Impassable with some exceptions or what?

    Colours
    Why is Russia no longer Redish brown? Now we have so many greyish colours.

    Its still brown and it looks better with the milton bradley russian pieces which is what Russia should be colored. Their is NOTHING reddish about real Russian uniforms. The national color is an earthy brown which is the soil of Russia. Those ugly revised russians show up better with this color. Only Germany and Italy are shades or grey. should i recolor Italy that grey green?

    I am thinking Himalaya could be flattened. Then Tibet move a bit south. Kwangtung/FIC border also looks weird with Hainan belonging to FIC.
    Could draw (not new territory) Taiwan in for Kwangtung.

    I will recolor Taiwan to Chinese control. The Himalaya are a huge mountain area. It cant be ‘slimmed’ down because its that large.

    Iceland mountainous
    It should do something. Unless its unlikely to be invaded. We added Iceland in the first place for…?

    People complained so i added it. I guess its also a base for planes ( DAS missions) using ASW to hunt subs passing thru the area.

    New North American territories
    Better play is subjective.
    Easier to land in US is better play right?
    And for consistency the answer is obivous.
    I think it should add to the game.

    USA does not get invaded unless:

    1. the game is already over and the allies are just being stubborn ( crap and giggles approach to play)

    2. the American player is really stupid and didn’t see a huge Japanese navy ready to invade the west coast

    their is no reality to invading the Americas, but the American player needs to be able to cover easily both sides and their needs to remain less territories. Also, America is deliberately made small so whats the point of 3-4 more American territories???

    Just take even one of the Soviet Territories and stick it in USA. Its like the same size. The whole point is the territories need to be roughly the same size unless it directly leads to some ‘must have’ historical or playability feature.  Tell me what should be done and why.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Or should these modifiers be cumulative, i.e. +2 to defenders in Japan?

    Modifiers are only possibly cumulative under the NA’s allowing for the normal combat modifier and possible a one time event making it a +2 or -2.


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