Invading the soviet union with lighting war continued


  • I also was once thinking about this and I came up with this:
    Operations Trio Axis
    maps
    basically you do this:
    start sending the subs along British convoy lines
    send 1 mountain inf or artillery to nationalist Spain each turn starting jul 1936
    anex austria, bohemia, and slovakia in 3 turns
    spend 12 IPPs over time on researching advanced artillery, advanced mech inf, wartime economy, and advanced subs
    before jul 1938 you buy 4 infantry, 3 artillery
    send over 4 inf and 3 art to east Prussia
    on jul 1938 you buy 5 MA, 5 mech inf.
    set the units up as show on map (link above)
    for jul 1939 (so on jan 1939) build 2 mech and 2 MA and 2 inf.
    for jan 1940 build 2 more subs, build up western defenses
    that’s germany, now for Italy

    send 1 inf. each turn to nationalist spain
    build 2 minor factories, 1 in italian Somaliland, one in Torbuk
    start building infantry in these areas, 1 each turn and sometimes build an artillery
    on jul or jan 1939 rush Tunisia, western Egypt and Nubia, and reinforce these positions, build up an army in northern Italy, destroy British fleet near eastern Egypt
    when you’re ready invade southern France and every once in a while you do suicide attacks to Paris, germany sends some La to southern france

    after that its basically doing what’s neccesary

    Any thoughts on this strategy?

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17

    @david-06 a couple thoughts and questions for you.

    So, does the above strategy imply that you ignore France and are going all in on the USSR? When I look at the above and your map files, it seems that the plan here is to rush Moscow as quickly as possible, right?

    For Italy, seems like a lot of spending with so little to start with. Instead of building minor factories in Tobruk and Italian Somaliland, why not just build Colonial Infantry instead? I get that you can’t build artillery that way, but I think the added +1 IPP for Colonial Infantry is maybe better worth the cost for Italy than building two minor factories? You also mention reinforcing Northern Italy. With all the costs of minor factories, units in Africa, and sending help to Spain each turn, I’m not sure Italy’s 10 IPP’s leave you with much left over to really build up any Northern Italian forces.

    When looking at the above, I’m not sure that it works. My main basis for saying that is looking at what your opponent might be doing when seeing what your plan is.

    • If I’m France, and I’m seeing all these movements of units to the East, with an obvious lack of offensive firepower against me in the West, I’m preparing my forces to take the offensive as quickly as possible, or realizing I’m in an okay spot to defend myself.

    • Likewise, my British ally can spend in such a way that they can quickly ship reinforcements to the mainland to defend France.

    • Relatedly, France might also be able to feel confident in shuffling reinforcements to North Africa, thus thwarting your Italian plans down that way.

    • For the USSR, if I’m seeing this kind of build up, and realizing the Allies aren’t in immediate danger, I’m making sure that I attack before you do so that you cannot use your Soviet Surprise Attack special ability on me. I’m also packing militia to the fronts in just large enough groups to hopefully thwart blitzing abilities too.

    Obviously every game has opponents who will react differently to different situations, and even the “best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry”. Point being, I think ignoring France is a risky proposition. I don’t think in practice you get as deep into Russia as you might think before it really hits the fan in the West. And I think an Allied player(s) is going to exploit this by building the right units to reinforce France quickly (the UK) and building a beefy defense that anything you’ve left to “build up western defenses” won’t be able to overcome (France).

    The short version: I don’t think ignoring the West is a plan that will succeed!

    Certainly just my thoughts though. It’s a ton of fun trying to plan different strategies!


  • @chris_henry said in Invading the soviet union with lighting war continued:

    a couple thoughts and questions for you.
    So, does the above strategy imply that you ignore France and are going all in on the USSR? When I look at the above and your map files, it seems that the plan here is to rush Moscow as quickly as possible, right?
    For Italy, seems like a lot of spending with so little to start with. Instead of building minor factories in Tobruk and Italian Somaliland, why not just build Colonial Infantry instead? I get that you can’t build artillery that way, but I think the added +1 IPP for Colonial Infantry is maybe better worth the cost for Italy than building two minor factories? You also mention reinforcing Northern Italy. With all the costs of minor factories, units in Africa, and sending help to Spain each turn, I’m not sure Italy’s 10 IPP’s leave you with much left over to really build up any Northern Italian forces.

    Thanks for the Reply! I’m a beginner and I really need advice on these such stuff. What if instead of the the 2 factories, I build 2 artillery and 2 more colonial Infantry for the defense of Rome, I send in 1 infantry and 1 militia from northern Italy and use the LA for an Invasion on Southern France?

    Also I forgot to say that Japan will be participating in this attack and beforehand will stack up units so its obvious that they’ll attack which in turn should, in my inexperienced opinion, should cause the soviets to retaliate dragging away valuable troops.

    Just to get some intel, What’s your usual mentality with France? do you go all in on defense, or do you go in on colonial forces, or some mix of the 2?


  • Two points:

    • You should factor in bombers booming the airbases in Russian cities.
    • The Japanese naval invasion of Vladivostok, should naval invade from the SZ above to avoid the coastal gun.
  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17

    @david-06 No worries at all! Great to see more people playing! I would certainly not call myself an expert, but have played for a while now, and A&A for years and years before that too.

    First, what is the Japanese component of this strategy then? Somewhat what @insaneHoshi is saying as part of it? There’s so much trickle down in these games, my follow ups for Japan, similar to what I posted about Europe:

    • How does this buildup against the USSR by Japan affect play against China? Are you just ignoring China at first? If I’m the KMT, I’m pretty happy about this, as it gives me time to build up forces, or allows me to take Warlords without any real danger from Japan.

    • Does this play mean that you are not focusing any forces to the DEI and taking those money islands down there? That’s a lot of money left on the map, and not much money up towards the USSR to take to compensate.

    Kind of reiterating my immediate take above. Yeah, in this situation, I’d say the Comintern is screwed. It’s a great concept if all you had to worry about was the Comintern. They wouldn’t be able to do much against that combined Axis power I can’t imagine. At least not right away. But in doing this, I think the Axis screw themselves by ignoring the Allies on all fronts. This allows France, China, FEC, UK, all to get stronger without any real fear of immediate losses it seems.

    What if instead of the the 2 factories, I build 2 artillery and 2 more colonial Infantry for the defense of Rome, I send in 1 infantry and 1 militia from northern Italy and use the LA for an Invasion on Southern France?

    A couple things for your Italy thoughts.

    • Just remember that Italy’s income is only 10 IPP’s. I think it’s hard to have a ton of huge plans with Italy early in the game. For me, I’ve usually had concise early objectives, and I see how those go.

    • Just make sure you consider the two options for French surrender:

          - France Surrenders when Paris is taken.
          - France surrenders if Paris is totally surrounded.
      

    I only point this out to remind you there’s options for defeating France. I can see both ways. To me, it’s probably more economical to attempt to surround Paris than attack a city and take those lumps. On the flip side, if you attack Southern France with Italian troops, to me that’s a lot of precious Italian units lost for no Italian gain in the end, especially if wanting to create Vichy France (i.e. Italy wouldn’t even keep the Southern France territory or the IPP’s it’s worth.

    I tend to focus Italian efforts on North Africa, and in Greece if I can help it. But in your scenario, I think you need to have defensive forces in Northern Italy because the Allies might be bold with no immediate German threat. And to me, Italian troops in Northern Italy takes away from Italian troops in North Africa and/or the Balkans.

    Just to get some intel, What’s your usual mentality with France? do you go all in on defense, or do you go in on colonial forces, or some mix of the 2?

    I have found France a very interesting nation to play in this game. I think it’s sometimes hard to find the right balance! In theory, France should be defeated by a German/Axis player somewhat quickly before they really have a chance to build up too many defensive forces and/or have UK reinforcements. Because of this theory of France’s eventual, unavoidable demise, I think it’s natural to think about “saving” as many units as you can. By that I mean sending units to North Africa in hopes they turn Free French. But that is certainly not a given, they could just as easily turn Vichy.

    So to me, it makes more sense to defend the Home Country of France as much as possible to inflict the maximum amount of damage to the Axis as they attack. Since there’s two ways to force France to surrender, I think it’s typically good to have a balanced defense of Paris itself as well as the surrounding territories. You don’t want to just pack everything in Paris, because then the Axis will just surround the city and that will be that. But you also don’t want to leave the city entirely undefended either, because that would allow the Axis to exploit the weakest way into France, and then use their blitz move to take Paris the next turn.

    There’s just a lot to consider with France in that regard. But that’s also indicative of the game at large I think. There’s going to be pros and cons to most everything, and of course your opponent may dictate some of these things too!


  • @chris_henry First, as Japan, I would basically knock KMT out of the Game via a Large attack into Kwangtung, and to continue on the next turn to Yunnan since that is basically later game fortress. Also on that first turn (of the attack), I would invade Peking and Suiyuan using the ground forces in Rehe (mainly mountain infantry and artillery). the second turn would have amphibious assaults on all KMT coastal territories. Also, if CCP agrees to it I would Like to make an alliance of convenience with them, since the USSR is fricked, the CCP points won’t really matter and they will weaken the KMT and at the end, I would probably try to do a co-ownership of China, with Japan taking the Costal Territories and CCP the Rest. the build up isn’t going to be that big while it should take on some force in part. I would invade the money lands jul 1940 or later if the units to do so.

    For Italy, I was thinking of doing a rush/ then hold strat. Since for desert territories infantry would attack at a 1, Italy would Rush tunisia, nubia, and western Egypt. then I would basically hold the territories, sometimes putting in some militia or infantry.

    Great Britain would be convoyed, as I’ll be adding some more subs every year and my defenses will be upped by Infantry.

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17

    @david-06 So, you’re laying out a ton of of plans for China here which will take resources and units to accomplish. To me, it seems really ambitious to attempt to take out all of China while simultaneously getting the big build up against the USSR that you mention. Not to mention the resources for the money islands invasion!

    It just sounds to me that once you played this out you wouldn’t have the resources to pressure the USSR that you’re thinking you might. Could certainly be wrong though!

    So, I’d disagree with you on the CCP for sure though, taking the opposite point you make actually! If the “USSR is fricked”, why would I as the Comintern player go out of my way to help you in China when you’re in the middle of a massive effort against me in the USSR? Wouldn’t my CCP forces be better spent trying to weaken the Japanese in hopes of stalling out this USSR invasion? Maybe that’s just me. But if I were in that position I would be doing the opposite of trying to throw Japan a bone!


  • @chris_henry you might be right, but here’s something to point out
    If Japan and Germany are deep into the USSR, the Comintern player might as well think that it is over for the Soviets and might want to “start over” with the Communists in china. Also, the Japanese invasion would happen before the Soviet invasion, starting about jan 1939 or jul 1938, which means that the japanese will be quite in china, and by the time the USSR invasion comes in, the Chinese might as well be able to do nothing about it. As for the Numbers, if the Japanese do the invasion Jan 1939, they could have 5 mountain infantry, 4 marines, and 3 artillery for the invasion, part 1. for the Invasion of kwangtung, the Japanese use 4 marines, 3 mountain infantry, and 1 artillery. the rest will be used for the by-land invasion. For the Second wave, there would be 4 infantry and 1 marine. later on, you could use the extra money from china for the build-up

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17

    @david-06 Really all just food for thought from me!

    Just an FYI I’m not trying to be rudely combative or anything like that. I think play devils advocate and/or just trying to point out possible obstacles to strategies can help flush out these things. I certainly don’t mean to say your ideas are “dumb” or flat out won’t work or anything like that, but merely offering other perspectives you maybe haven’t considered. Sorry, didn’t mean to soap box there, I just know it’s easy for inflection to get lost via typed speech. I’ve seen way too many fights/arguments on these forums over perceived slights via typing here! I just never mean to insult is all I’m saying.

    So, in terms of “starting over” with the CCP, just remember they are a bit handicapped until they expel all foreign influences from Chinese Home Country (which includes Manchuria). Point being, I don’t think you could ever trust a CCP player to split China or anything like that, because neither Chinese faction is allowed to do things outside of China until all China is united/Japanese forces are expelled. Just something to consider there as well.

    So, Japan invades China in '38 or '39. When does the USSR invasion take place? Don’t get me wrong, I agree you can have the forces available for some initial Chinese setbacks. I just wonder how much you have left over after and how quickly you can get it back to the northern borders in time for your USSR portion of the plan?

    The longer you wait for a concerted assault on the USSR, the stronger they will be. Whether that’s via Sleeping Bear rolls, or other peacetime income increases. It seems to me if your plan is hitting China that hard first in '38 or '39, I wonder if you have the strength in place before like 1941? If you have to wait too long it just gets harder and harder is all!


  • @chris_henry The same from me if you felt offended. I actually never thought you were rude and I was never offended. For the soviet invasion, I was thinking jan 1940, since then the Soviets would retreat units from the Far East and I would be able to quickly take the area, remember Moscow, with most of their Factory production is taken by that time. By jul 1939, I would have 21 IPPs for the Invasion. I would upgrade the militia in northern manchuria, and build a colonial infantry there. for Eastern Manchuria, I would also build a colonial and in japan, I would build 1 mountains and a SNLF. That’s 19 IPPs, but I could always allocate some troops into China, for which I would have 1 mountain and 1 militia

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17

    @david-06 No, not at all! I just felt like I walked in and started challenging your strategies. Just wanted to be sure you knew I wasn’t being pompous, rude, etc.!

    Moscow is taken by which time? Don’t forget the USSR can move its factories, so I wouldn’t say Moscow falling is necessarily the end of its factory!

    If you don’t attack until January 1940, it’ll take at least 3 turns (so July 1941) to take Moscow, right? That’s just 3 turns’ worth of the USSR being at max income to help blunt the attacks!

    I also could be wrong about this part, it certainly is hard to envision without a board in front of me. But if I’m the USSR, and I’m seeing this play out, I’m not so sure I send the large amount of forces to the east that you’re thinking. There isn’t much IPP to be lost in the far east. I wonder if at that point I’m better off leaving minimal stalling forces, and continuing my main defenses in the west against the Germans. Trade space for time this way while losing minimal units and IPP against the Japanese. But everyone would certainly react differently!

    I guess we haven’t established this, but when is your plan to attack France? After the USSR, right? I think we’ve been talking like that’s the case, but I guess I don’t know your full thoughts on that part!

    By this time France and the UK will have entered the war. They both have probably entered by 1940 in fact, right? With the peace time increases for your attack on Poland, then the USSR, as well as two rearmament rolls. And even more increase potential if Italy has attacked someone at this point. If they have joined the war, that almost assuredly means the ANZAC will have reinforced the DEI, making amphibious attacks for the money islands harder. And lend lease will start to come to China via the Burma Road too!

    For me, it’s such a difficult game to intend to ignore certain areas with grand plans in others. Like, I don’t know that an all-focus attack on the USSR without attacks on France at the same time or before is successful for the Axis overall. Same with waiting on taking the DEI until after Chinese and Russian attacks, as the Commonwealth will now have moved to reinforce the islands!


  • @david-06 As a note, Japan cannot build colonials.
    @Chris_Henry How will the UK reinforce the NEI? Assuming Japan or Germany hasn’t attacked, (Which they shouldn’t) the Dutch are neutral.

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17

    @trig Good point! Sorry, I’m playing all this through in my head, and I keep thinking about how if it were me France/Belgium/Netherlands would have already been attacked before Russia. So I was thinking of it in terms of that. But yeah, in @David-06 scenario that is not the case. So my mistake on that portion of it!

    When I play the Axis I try and time the Japanese invasion of the DEI to coincide with the German invasion of Western Europe.


  • @chris_henry I was going to use Lightning War for the USSR so I’ll take the factories in 1 turn, basically before Russia can do anything about it. If you saw my plans, I included taking ALL the major factories, which means that for some time, the soviet Production will be limited. I had 2 plans for USSR, the “2” one is if there is basically nothing in Ukraine. Also, there is a 25% chance once Germany invades Poland (jan 1939) that Britain won’t be able to join the war. There is also a 19% France won’t be able to join (jan 1939). For france, with the help of Italy, I would invade Southern France and as Italy I would gather my forces and I would do suicide attacks on the Capital, Paris, and Germany would also do so. But that does mean that Italy could actually defeat france. The DEI, I realized would have to go later.

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17

    @david-06 I’ll definitely be curious on how it pans out! I know there was a thread a while back for the V2 game about this very possibility for Moscow to fall during the Lightning War attack, and it was largely debunked as not very likely to succeed. But all games are different, I think it will depend largely on how smartly your Comintern player defends against it, and how well the Allied player exploits it!


  • @chris_henry Hopefully I’ll be able to try it out. Though I think this will make the game way more interesting.

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17

    @david-06 If it does work, a boring game for the Comintern will be afoot haha.

    I know this is based on a base-game scenario, but this sounds like a fun chance to use the Partisans Expansion too! Would force the Axis to really have to defend their new territories from who knows how many Soviet partisans in the area haha.


  • @chris_henry Partisans do add a lot of action, it also gives the allies something to do in the early game.

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17

    @david-06 Definitely! That’s one I really like to play with in my games. I don’t want to derail your thread, but that one is certainly one we like to use! Makes the CCP a lot more fun as well, especially when used with the Chinese Civil War expansion too!


  • @chris_henry That would make things harder, though I would rather fight some partisans than the might of the soviets and Americans combined.

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17

    @david-06 True there!


  • @chris_henry Two- front wars don’t work that well. I remember one game in which I played as Germany in which I had to fight on 5 fronts at one time, most of which were defensive. Didn’t end well for the Germans

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17

    @david-06 While I certainly agree on that, I also just don’t think letting one alliance build up unchecked won’t end well either!

    My typical play/hope is to use my lightning war round effectively in the west to take at least all of France, though hopefully Norway, Denmark, Belgium, and the Netherlands as well.

    In doing this, you wrap up mainland resistance right away, and the UK is almost assuredly in no position to make amphibious assaults against you immediately after, allowing you some time to build defenses, while focusing more manpower in the east.

    Depending on how the game has gone to this point (i.e. where my troops have been placed, enemy troops are placed, peacetime income increase rolls, etc.) I will also either simultaneously attack the USSR, utilizing the Lighting War and Soviet Surprise Attack abilities, and hopefully getting to the two front line cities/factories quickly.

    To me, doing this now neutralizes any big French buildup of units in France. The longer it takes to take them out, the harder and more costly it’ll be, and the more IPP’s you’ll have to sacrifice taking them out will hurt! But I think you have the larger IPP advantage at this point in having gained French IPP (and money in the bank), and now France was taken out efficiently, while also making any UK attempts much more costly with amphibious assaults instead of free movements to the mainland.

    From there, it’s trying a defensive game in the west, while pushing the resources you need in the east!


  • @chris_henry This is where Italy will go into play. If Southern France is taken, then French troops into North Africa is delayed, and since from Northern Italy you can invade the Balkans, The French won’t really expect it. This, paired with the suicidal attacks into Paris, which will weaken France leading to less troops on the front. I think that the cash from the Soviet union will pay off more later on. Also, Germany doesn’t even have to take France and still will fulfill all of its VPs. So, in reality, they could play a defensive war and since the only two entrances will by that time be well defended, and infantry are really cheap, they could wait out the war.


  • @chris_henry Also, simply put, the Axis at one point will be able to out produce the Allies and simply wait out the war.
    Axis non-bonus: 130 IPPs
    Allies non-bonus: 128 IPPs

Suggested Topics

I Will Never Grow Up Games
Axis & Allies Boardgaming Custom Painted Miniatures
Dean's Army Guys

35
Online

16.3k
Users

38.0k
Topics

1.6m
Posts