@GeneralHandGrenade very good point. Hadn’t considered it would negate the bonus Germany gets that first turn at war. Very interesting. Something more to think about for future games! I appreciate you clarifying that whole thing for me.
Question about Vichy
After Paris falls, and France surrenders, Does Vichy France continue to collect, and build? Or do they become a static, “neutral” nation? I don’t see this specific issue covered in either version of the rule book, on the forums, or other websites like BGG.
It seems reasonable that they could continue to collect, and prosecute a war against the Free French, though historically, they were forbidden from building up their armed forces by Germany.
You still track the Vichy income on the income tracker. However, the money goes to the conquering nation (Germany) every turn. The Vichy units are only able to defend if attacked. If they are attacked, all remaining Vichy units and territories join the side that didn’t attack them (Free France or Germany). They would become active again at that point. In Version 3 they experimented with allowing Free France to wage war with Vichy France but it didn’t work out well. Basically it gave the Allies an advantage because they could attack the Vichy with no recourse for the Axis and it wasn’t a fair fight between the FF and VF. Germany could do nothing but watch their Vichy colonies get picked off one by one.
@GeneralHandGrenade Thank you for clearing that up!
I advise re adding the V3 rule of allowing Free France attacking Vichy as that is exactly what UK and France did after it was clear that Vichy was going to stay neutral. Also, keep in mind that even though Vichy is giving their money to Germany, it is still neutral and thus the Allies have to treat it no differently.
I’ve actually found the relevant rule after re-reading the rules, but couldn’t find it earlier. Thanks guys.
So, you can allow Free France to attack Vichy France, but doing so would trigger Vichy France joining the Axis. Obviously the Allied prerogative to do so.
But if you’re saying they should be able to do so, without the repercussions of Vichy France joining the Axis, I’d have to agree with GHG and HBG that this would not work well mechanically in the game. For the reasons stated above by GHG exactly. The Allies could just roll over them and get free territories/income/etc. easily.
Even if you limit it to only Free French units specifically being able to attack Vichy French (as in no other Allied nations could help), the Free French have a large advantage via Lend Lease and in collecting their own income still.
@Chris_Henry It benefits the Axis to allow France to have a free pass at Vichy. Under the Vichy France system, your game in theory will never have the same amount of Vichy territories, it is possible for all of France to go Vichy and also possible for Vichy to not exist. It completely depends on the dice. Also if Free France lets say only retains 25% of their original territories, the allies lend leasing to Free France may give them a better chance to get at Vichy but that also means they are not lend leasing to someone else.
@Caesar-Seriona I guess I don’t follow all the thinking there. How does it benefit the Axis to allow France to have a free pass at Vichy? Germany would literally lose IPP’s that they get from Vichy territories that the Allies would eventually just take.
Vichy would also exist for sure in some capacity. If nothing else, Marseilles is always automatically Vichy. But I guess I don’t understand the argument as to why the amount of territories that go Vichy or Free matters? Either way, the proposal you make is that the Axis cannot intervene at all, while the Free French have free reign. Even if every territory goes Vichy at the beginning, the Free French would still over take them all eventually with Lend Lease aid.
In terms of Lend Lease, I’d have to disagree with the Allies “not lend leasing to someone else” if Lend Leasing to Free France. The American’s, for example, can still Lend Lease to any other nation in the same turn still. They are not limited to only leasing to one nation a turn. Unless that rule is changing in V3, which I admittedly have only read the current draft through once.
@Chris_Henry Lend Lease in V2 states that you may only lend lease one unit OR half income per turn. If you tie this up to Free France then no one else is going to get Lend Lease. Second, if Germany is depending on Vichy income to win, then it’s obvious to me that Germany is too weak to whatever offensive it’s going at.
@Caesar-Seriona I think you need to re-read the rule, it does not say you can only send to one nation. What the rule states is that, when you do Lend Lease to a nation, you can send that nation one unit or up to half that nations income. But you can do that same process multiple times.
Language from the book here:
7.8 Lend-Lease: During the Production Phase nations may lend money (IPPs) or military
equipment to other Major and Minor Powers.
Requirements: A nation can lend-lease to a nation under the following conditions:
(a) The receiving nation is at war with a Major Power or,
(b) A special circumstance (e.g. Spanish Civil War) allows a
nation to lend-lease.
A nation may not lend-lease to itself or to Aligned minors (since
they are technically also part of that nation). Britain cannot lendlease to the FEC or ANZAC.
Declaration: A player must announce his intention to lend-lease at
the start of the turn. You may lend either;
(a) Up to half the receiving nation’s current income in IPPs (not
counting bonus income), rounding fractions up. Or,
(b) One military unit. Such a unit must be produced at a factory in the Home Nation
specifically for the purpose of lending. You may not lend-lease units already on the
It does not specify that you can only Lend Lease to a single nation. So that might help clear it up a bit. The USA can Lend Lease to China, USSR, UK, and Free France all in the same turn if it wants to, for example.
I guess I still don’t follow the logic on allowing Free France a free reign to take out Vichy though. I’m not saying the money from Vichy makes or breaks Germany winning, but it just doesn’t make any sense to allow the Allies to just take all the territory essentially for free while Germany can’t do anything about it. But we may have to just agree to disagree on that one.