• '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I guess we just need to make a module with different colors for territories and units then. =p

    As for dragging, in Battlemap you have these options:

    Drag and Drop 1 unit, auto stacks in territory (very nice!)
    Shift-Drag and drop 5 units, auto stacks in territory
    Control-Drag and drop 10 units, auto stacks in territory
    Shift-Control-Drag and drop all units, auto stacks in territory.

    I don’t see why such a massively ingenious function like that wasn’t incorporated into the “upgrade” of mapview.

    As for loading time, if it really has been improved, great.


  • @frimmel:

    The problem I had that really made me not want to use it is I couldn’t install it for all user’s. I could install it for the Admin account but not for the limited accounts on XP.

    The install must be set to install for the current user only then.  If you installed it to c : \ MotCreations instead of c : \ Program Files \ MotCreations can the low-privellege accounts then access it?  I’ll have to try this and get back to you.  Next time you have a problem, just stop by the support forum and drop a line…that’s what its for!

    @Jennifer:

    I guess we just need to make a module with different colors for territories and units then. =p

    As for dragging, in Battlemap you have these options:

    Drag and Drop 1 unit, auto stacks in territory (very nice!)
    Shift-Drag and drop 5 units, auto stacks in territory
    Control-Drag and drop 10 units, auto stacks in territory
    Shift-Control-Drag and drop all units, auto stacks in territory.

    I don’t see why such a massively ingenious function like that wasn’t incorporated into the “upgrade” of mapview.

    As for loading time, if it really has been improved, great.

    So by default when you drag a stack of units in Battlemap, it decrements 1 from the source and adds 1 to the destination?Â

    Thanks everyone,
    Mot

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Yes.  In battlemap you can default to dragging 1 from one territory to another and it physically moves the piece just like on the game board.

    Actually, for this reason my IRL games are all done on Battlemap.  You get a better picture, you never have to count how many units you have on a territory, wonder if they are jinked more on one side of the line then another, etc.  Very easy, Very convenient.

    I’d prefer Mapview more if I had the same functionality.

    And someone PLEASE make a copy of AAR/AARe that is 1 board per screen, no scrolling or minimal scrolling like in Battlemap with Unit Colors DIFFERENT then territorial colors!


  • @Motdc:

    @frimmel:

    The problem I had that really made me not want to use it is I couldn’t install it for all user’s. I could install it for the Admin account but not for the limited accounts on XP.

    The install must be set to install for the current user only then.  If you installed it to c : \ MotCreations instead of c : \ Program Files \ MotCreations can the low-privellege accounts then access it?  I’ll have to try this and get back to you.  Next time you have a problem, just stop by the support forum and drop a line…that’s what its for!

    That seemed to work for me on my XP machine, though admittedly I need to get a better install to make that easier.

    Mot


  • @Jennifer:

    Yes. In battlemap you can default to dragging 1 from one territory to another and it physically moves the piece just like on the game board.

    Actually, for this reason my IRL games are all done on Battlemap. You get a better picture, you never have to count how many units you have on a territory, wonder if they are jinked more on one side of the line then another, etc. Very easy, Very convenient.

    I’d prefer Mapview more if I had the same functionality.

    Excluding moving an entire stack which is always easy, in my FTF games I always found moving units to be a two-step process.  First is to take X units from the current stack, and then place those X units onto a new territory, often onto another stack.  This is how I modeled moving units in MapView.  Select the source stack and “Split” off X units.  Then drag that ministack onto the new territory.Â

    I know, no one really cares about “why” things are designed in a particular way, all I’m trying to say is I’m OK with this style being a bit different than Battlemap.  And I acknowledge that people really familiar with all of those key combinations may find the lack of those exact combinations frustrating.  When I put MapView together I was just trying to replicate real FTF play as much as possible and to make a simple-to-use tool.  (Multi-key combinations used while dragging are great time-savers for common behaviors if you know them, but in my opinion it’s not what I would generally call intuitive).

    So long story short, I’ll try to take a look at some keyboard shortcuts for some of the common actions, but MapView is likely to always be right-click -> action oriented.

    @Jennifer:

    And someone PLEASE make a copy of AAR/AARe that is 1 board per screen, no scrolling or minimal scrolling like in Battlemap with Unit Colors DIFFERENT then territorial colors!

    If no one else does, I’ll try to put one together…or at least give on a good start and then someone else can tweak it to their liking.

    Mot

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I understand the methodology behind how you set up your stacks, but it is so much more convenient to be able to hit a key and a mouse button to move partial stacks around in preset increments.  I found it almost funny when I switched from Battlemap, a program that appears to use 1970’s graphics, to Mapview which appears to use 1990’s graphics and suddenly the convenience of the game was gone.  It was actually easier to use a physical board.

  • 2007 AAR League

    I agree, the Battlemap method of moving units is better. You can move 1, 5, 10 or all units in a stack with one movement, by combining keyboard and mouse controls.

    In Mapview, the right-click method is much more tedious, because all the steps are sequential:

    1. Right-click stack - a menu appears
    2. Calculate mentally what will take the fewest actions - splitting off 2 and then 1, or splitting off 5 and using what’s left behind
    3. Move the mouse down the menu
    4. Click the appropriate option
    5. Repeat steps 1-4 until you have the right combination of units
    6. Drag all the separate stacks of units into the target territory - this step in itself is about as simple as the entire process in Battlemap.

    In battlemap, combat is much quicker to set up because a most battles are small. Mapview lends itself well to moving everything all at once to the same territory, but it is rare to actually move your units that way - usually only in the final battle for Berlin or Moscow. Usually, you send one or two units off in several different directions, and then you might move everything that’s left all together.


  • @froodster:

    I agree, the Battlemap method of moving units is better. You can move 1, 5, 10 or all units in a stack with one movement, by combining keyboard and mouse controls.

    Unless of course you only want to move 3, eh?  :wink:

    @froodster:

    In Mapview, the right-click method is much more tedious, because all the steps are sequential:

    1. Right-click stack - a menu appears
    2. Calculate mentally what will take the fewest actions - splitting off 2 and then 1, or splitting off 5 and using what’s left behind
    3. Move the mouse down the menu
    4. Click the appropriate option
    5. Repeat steps 1-4 until you have the right combination of units
    6. Drag all the separate stacks of units into the target territory - this step in itself is about as simple as the entire process in Battlemap.

    That’s good information for me…if this is an area that needs some improvement then I can focus on it.  Thanks to both of you!  As an aside, if the canned splits (and I think there are more than just 1, 5, and 10) are not what one is looking for, that’s what the Custom Split is for.Â

    @froodster:

    In battlemap, combat is much quicker to set up because a most battles are small. Mapview lends itself well to moving everything all at once to the same territory, but it is rare to actually move your units that way - usually only in the final battle for Berlin or Moscow. Usually, you send one or two units off in several different directions, and then you might move everything that’s left all together.

    Splitting off one or two is pretty easy with the canned splits, but yes moving the whole stack is the easiest operation in MapView.

    Thanks again…you’ve got me thinking of all kinds of things.  I can’t way to see which ones I can fit in.

    If anyone else has ideas or suggestions, please let me know!

    Mot

  • 2007 AAR League

    Yeah, I know there’s a custom split, but then that adds another step - you have to then type in a number.

    A pretty good interim solution would be to have canned splits for 2-10 units (even though that would increase the size of the menu), with the default action being to move just one unit off the stack.

    I think that would be more intuitive: you can add units by dragging them on to a stack, so you should be able to split units off by dragging them off.

    Another way to go would be to just have the right-click immediately open a “custom split” dialog, so it’s just “right-click, type #, enter” but I know you also have other options in the right-click menu.

    I agree though, even in Battlemap, moving 3 or 4 units is also a bit of a pain.

    The most flexible canned splits would be a binary progression: 1, 2, 4, 8, 16 etc.

    Another suggestion would be to have three mouse modes that you select via right-click: Add, Delete or Split, and then you have some other way of influencing how much each click should add, delete or split off.

  • 2007 AAR League

    @froodster:

    The most flexible canned splits would be a binary progression: 1, 2, 4, 8, 16 etc.

    For programmers (like most of us populating this forum) and others familiar with binary, this is the easiest method.  But many are still stuck in base 10.  For those, the common monetary divisions of 1,2,5,10 may be easiest.


  • Based on everyone’s suggestions, in addition to “Splitting” I’m adding a new feature (for now called “Tearing”).  To quickly move a subset of a stack you can now tear off upto 10 units from the stack by holding down the the numeric key as you start the drag.  So if you want to tear off 3 units from a stack you press 3 and then grab the stack as normal.  3 units will be automatically split off and those 3 will be drag-dropped instead of the whole stack.  (Zero will tear off 10).  For quantities above 10, use the Split, Custom split, or Tear a couple of times.

    Thanks everyone, I’ll post again in a few days when that has been completed in the alpha realse.

    Mot

  • 2007 AAR League

    Hey, that sounds pretty good. Now the only thing missing for me would be a smaller map so it is all visible at once (or better yet a zoom feature in Mapview) and of course the ability to auto-track IPCs.


  • @Motdc:

    @Motdc:

    @frimmel:

    The problem I had that really made me not want to use it is I couldn’t install it for all user’s. I could install it for the Admin account but not for the limited accounts on XP.

    The install must be set to install for the current user only then.  If you installed it to c : \ MotCreations instead of c : \ Program Files \ MotCreations can the low-privellege accounts then access it?  I’ll have to try this and get back to you.  Next time you have a problem, just stop by the support forum and drop a line…that’s what its for!

    That seemed to work for me on my XP machine, though admittedly I need to get a better install to make that easier.

    Mot

    I will give that I try. It didn’t occur to me to try that. Thanks for the tip.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Actually, it’s still easy to move 3 in Battlemap.  Shift-Click a stack of three and move it. =P

    Also, my good friend, Frood, forgot to add that after you fianlly get your stacks sorted out, and if you can actually SEE them on the map, you have to move then and then put in arrows cause lord knows your opponent will never see what’s going on without arrows cause EVERY BLOODY PIECE BLENDS WITH THE BOARD!!!

  • 2007 AAR League

    I never used the arrows, as I didn’t have trouble recognizing the pieces.

    It sounds like many of the issues could be resolved with a better map file - more condensed, and more contrast.


  • Sample small module…

    [attachment deleted by admin]


  • Geez, it mangled the heck out of it…the real image was a bit smaller and much more crisp.

  • 2007 AAR League

    Do you have a file we can try out ourselves?


  • No module yet, I was just sampling the images.  I was shrinking some unit graphics I made originally for AAE waaaaay back when and then I used the board from Battlemap.  I didn’t get permission to lift it though so I don’t think it’s right for me to repackage some else’s work.  It’s the scale of the units and board I was most looking to get feedback on.  I’m not a graphic artist so the creation of a similarly-sized map file is still of concern.  Anyone here an amateur map creator?

    Mot

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    That’s a great map, Mot.  The units are distinctly a different color, but ultimately differentiable from both landscape and foreign nationals.  As for size of unit vs territory, the only real thing you have to worry about is making sure that you can fit at least 3 different types of units for two different nations comfortably on a territory.

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