Well I like an American Pacific offensive more and more because I find that Japan cannot keep pace in the fleet wars and build up a land force to threaten Moscow at the same time. Either it loses the fleet battle (which means Japan will lose half its income) or it can only send a token force against the Russians. So I go Pacific whenever I can. But if USA starts with a disadvantage in the Pacific (this will be most games), it is not the best strategy. The best players will adapt their strategy to what is happening in the game.
Can the US have naval superiority?
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I am still limitted to one game at a time, atl east or another few weeks. And I have the 2-on-2 Tournament starting next week.
I also have a few other games in queue ahead of ya… but I will not forget ya!
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@ncscswitch:
I am still limitted to one game at a time, atl east or another few weeks. And I have the 2-on-2 Tournament starting next week.
I also have a few other games in queue ahead of ya… but I will not forget ya!
No prob, I cant wait several weeks. :wink:
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I wouldnt have UK add anything to the situation. MAYBE an IC in India, but that also helps them hold Africa which is an attack on Germany.
No, I’d say the UK fleet assists in the Pac, but don’t build more. Meanwhile, the US can build up some carriers and fighters forcing the Japs to either attack the US fleet or give up the Pac followed by a nice containment. Meanwhile, the US can build some subs (maybe even go for SS) for later when they want to sink the Jap fleet.
Now Japan is limited to the mainland. Sure, they’ll get up to Moscow, but they’ll be SO much easier to beat back since they won’t have those 13 IPCs (or more if they collect more islands as some players do). Meanwhile, the US now has an IC on Phillipeans, a very defensively strong fleet, 53+ IPC a round and enough bombers to SBR Japan back into the stone age while they build subs to take out the enemy fleet and/or build troops to retake Asia (giving them 9 more IPCs for Japanese held territories.)
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I’ve done some fairly successful KJFs in that I can diffuse Japan well enough with a hardcore US navy, but the issue is always always that Germany is very strong by the time that happens, and Russia is on the verge of collapse.
There is absolutely nothing you can do to prevent Japan from offloading 3 full rounds of troops into Buryatia, that’s 12 inf 12 tank. That’s hardly easy for anyone to beat considering Russia doesn’t nearly have the troops to spare, and the US and UK are light years form being able to build that many troops there. That means Russia IPCs collapse entirely from the East while the Germans press hard from the West, and soon you have an 8 IPC producing Russia.
Germany happens to be vastly annoying without the US to perform its support role. The counter to KJF is usually to kick the crap out of Africa as Germany, and force Russia into large troop trades in deadzones while the Japanese unhindered still drop massive troops along the north. The UK solely has to deal with a possibly massive German fleet while maintaining an IC in India and attempting to liberate Africa, and land into Europe as well, because the US is very busy attempting to build the fleet it needs to beat the Japanese. It’s a burden no matter which way you slice it.
I’m hardly one to pass complete judgment on a strategy like this; many strategies that I used to think were dumb actullly have some merit to them once re-examined. But I’m pretty sure that Germany is monstrous in this circumstance and the UK can be stretched too thin doing too many things, and certainly a clever Japanese player can strafe the transports out of the US fleet which prevents the island hopping, all the while the Japanese can be making more than the US is.
My $0.02 if you’re going to KJF is always to reinforce the Pearl Harbor fleet with the Indian fig because it potentially either causes tons of damage to the Japanese or saves the entire Pearl Harbor fleet, which is an efficient move. And of course kill the Kwantung transport. Past that, I’m not positive on what are the best moves. An Indian IC is helpful, but on the other hand you may not have that option available if the Germans link a massive fleet together and get into Africa fast, since you’ll need all your scarce dollars to whip up airforce and navy to handle that.
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Also remember one other major factor in having UK spend so much of their resources in the Pacific…
Fighters.I have played quite a few games now, including my current one, where the ONLY thing that has kept Moscow from falling are massed Allied FIGs in Moscow (and by MASSED FIGs, my current game with Darth is a great example… 9 UK FIGs, 3 US FIGs, 1 USSR FIG).
Were it not for that HUGE number of Fighters, Moscow would be in Axis hands… dropped either to the INF/ART/FIG attack coming from Germany via their IC in Caucuses, or from the INF/ART/ARM/BOM forces that Japan has massed in Novo.
If the US is focusing on Japan in the Pacific, then the US is not building FIGs to fly to Moscow via UK
If UK is building forces in India, trying to re-take Africa, and attempting to do ANYTHING in an effort to land forces in Europe, even just northern landings trying to get forces to Moscow, then they most certainly are not building FIGs… especially since their income is down around $20.No massed FIGs to Moscow and a virtually opposition free Germany means Moscow falls.
It is just a matter of the math in this case folks. The US can’t get enough forces fast enough into the Pacific to prevent an initial expansion by Japan and several waves of forces into Asia to strip Russia of her IPC’s while Germany just beats the snot out of Russia and takes everything, including Caucuses, right up to Moscow’s doorstep in 3-4 turns.
Russia with no money.
UK with only a third of its money
Germany at $50-$60 IPC’s (Africa plus all west of Moscow)
Japan at $40 (having reached Novo)The only real question is which falls first… Moscow or London.
And a creative player might even make a stab at Washington first, just for the fun of it.
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I’m sure those who try kjf and say it doesnt work usually commit serious errors along the way.
Im happy to teach it at gencon.
Squirecam
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However, the theory is, kill Japan before/same as Germany gets Russia.
You swap a 30 IPC country for a 24 IPC Country (except that everything east of Moscow is still allied).
I think Japan is committing a serious error if it falls before or at the same time at Moscow. An island capital is nearly impossible to crack because you need either a butload of transports or battleships.
I think that KJF can work, but it is much in the same manner that the Axis can win without a bid. It doesn’t have majority dice behind the strategy, instead faultily relying on some good dice.
Inevitably the truth is that you can contain Japan if you so desire. Japan is not strong enough to take on the attention of 3 nations by itself. I don’t disagree with that at all. The problem is that Germany is unleashed, which is much closer to Russia and Africa, has more IPCs to spend, and starts with a lot more troops. Most of the endorsements that I read about KJF tend to glamorize the first and ignore the second.
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2 IC are unnecessary.
However, the theory is, kill Japan before/same as Germany gets Russia.
You swap a 30 IPC country for a 24 IPC Country (except that everything east of Moscow is still allied).
It works if you do it correctly.
Squirecam
Actually, you don’t give Germany all of Russia. Odds are Japan owns at least some of it and if you own their capital, that makes it basically nuetral territory until you liberate it.
Also, now Germany has to drive from Moscow/Berlin to get to you while you can sit and build up on the East coast, maybe send enough forces in to annoy him and keep him from turning on London, but otherwise, just build up and then start moving into Asia/Europe in earnest.
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My $0.02 if you’re going to KJF is always to reinforce the Pearl Harbor fleet with the Indian fig because it potentially either causes tons of damage to the Japanese or saves the entire Pearl Harbor fleet, which is an efficient move. And of course kill the Kwantung transport. Past that, I’m not positive on what are the best moves. An Indian IC is helpful, but on the other hand you may not have that option available if the Germans link a massive fleet together and get into Africa fast, since you’ll need all your scarce dollars to whip up airforce and navy to handle that.
I’d add take out the Jap submarine in Solomons. One less ship shooting at American vessels.
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It is sad that you did not sign up for the Tournament to prove all of these great theories :-P
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Of all the KGF strats I’ve seen it’s more of an Allied push through Africa into Asia. This doesn’t seem as productive as an Allied move through Asia from the East anyway. At least there’s no water crossings you have to do and you have a place to fall back AND you have places where it’s actually realistically possible to build ICs.
Meanwhile, what Jap player is going to be paying attention for an Allied island hopping? Most players I’ve seen, so far, don’t even notice the campaign’s going on until they loose New Guinee and East Indies and by then you have a significant US and UK fleet out there to contend with. Sure, it probably cannot destroy your fleet, but it doesn’t have to attack your fleet, it just has to annoy you to the point you attack it…then you have US/UK carriers and fighters against your carriers and fighters, a loosing proposition at best.
Sure, you get a few rounds to attack Russia. Can’t be helped. But UK IC in India + US IC in Sink that’s 5 Allied tanks around, 25 IPCs isn’t that much of a drain on the European front for the allies. Toss in 9-12 IPCs a round from Russia to help assist and put 100% of UK/USSR assets on the german front to fight a war of attrition and you should have at least 8 rounds before Germany’s really threatening Moscow.
Meanwhile, Japan’s been stalled in Asia, it’s lost its islands, and America’s building Subs now to deal with Jap carriers. (Remember, your fighters can defend nicely, but they cannot be hit by subs…so if you have 4 carriers and I get 4 hits with subs, those 8 fighters do nothing but land on an island…) And I’ll gladly trade an American sub for a Jap transport.
And, as I mentioned before, you don’t have to take the Jap capital. Just contain them on their island and don’t let them get a fleet. 8 IPCs a round isn’t even a fighter, should be easy enough to contain. Now you have US with Sink, Manch, Kwang and FIC building tanks (11 tanks a round) to punch holes in German defenses for Brits and Russians to clean up. (I always loved the one-two punch you get with US/USSR forces…hit em iwth tanks, knock em down to 3 fighters and an infantry and send in 20 russian infantry…gotta love the trade there!)
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@ncscswitch:
It is sad that you did not sign up for the Tournament to prove all of these great theories :-P
I’m trying to sign up for the tourny. :) Contacted a few people already.
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We just closed out the last player…
I’ll put you on the Alternates list in case we lose a player before the start on Tuesday :-)
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…Remember, your fighters can defend nicely, but they cannot be hit by subs…so if you have 4 carriers and I get 4 hits with subs, those 8 fighters do nothing but land on an island…
Wouldn’t the fighters get at least one return fire shot at the subs before they landed?
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Yes they would, but she is looking at it form the prsopective of sinking your carriers, then you entire fleet is out of the SZ (with FIGs landing on an Island)
Of course, the sub-overload has its own counter…
1 DST to preclude sneak and retreat, BB’s to absorb hits… -
By the time you guys are finished countering each other in the pacific Germany will own Africa, Europe(UK included) and Asia. And preparing invasions of America and Australia.
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Well I just hope you’re adequately defending your ICs. It’s harder than it looks. If Japan strikes hard at China, it winds up with about 5 inf left there on average, then you dump 2 troops onto the mainland somewhere with your transport on J1. Potentially, the Sinkiang IC is under siege from 5 inf, 1 arm, 6 fig, and 1 bomber on Turn 2 already. Hint: your 2 US infantry + 4 Russian infantry from novo/kazakh are hardly adequate defense. On turn 2 if for some reason the Sinkiang complex is too strong to assault, the Japanese can then swing down into F. Indochina with 6 units from Japan, 2 units from Philippines, the 5 units from China, the 2 units dumped on J1. On turn 3 then 2 more units are picked up from E. Indies and India is hit with 14 inf, 1 art, 1 arm, 6 fighters, 1 bomber, and 2 shore bombardments. By turn 3 the UK could only have produced 6 tanks, which means you need what like 6-7 Russian inf to begin to have a prayer at turning them back?
If India is still too hard reinforced, then you can swing again back into China with all those units, threatening the sinkiang IC with a ton of units. That requires another 7+ Russian infantry in Sinkiang because the US could only have produced 6 tanks by turn 4. It may be too hard to expect Russia to front all the troops necessary to defend both of those locations; the ICs alone hardly produce nearly the amount of units needed in that short of time.
Sure, you get a few rounds to attack Russia. Can’t be helped. But UK IC in India + US IC in Sink that’s 5 Allied tanks around, 25 IPCs isn’t that much of a drain on the European front for the allies. Toss in 9-12 IPCs a round from Russia to help assist and put 100% of UK/USSR assets on the german front to fight a war of attrition and you should have at least 8 rounds before Germany’s really threatening Moscow.
Having the UK spend 15 IPCs a turn in India makes a huge dent in its European operations. That is about half its income, and actually turns out to be more than half its income since Africa is quickly being annexed by German troops. It’s left with a very sad paycheck which can either be used to make a half-hearted attempt at landing a few inf in Europe every turn or perhaps attempting to reclaim its money in Africa. Germany still has a very large fleet to be dealt with, and the UK can only build 1 fighter or less per turn in order to try to counter it. You can perhaps stall 8 rounds before Germany threatens Moscow, but is that a good thing?
Russia will be a very poor nation indeed when it’s trying to trade with a nearly 50 IPC Germany on the west an in addition spending 1/3 to 1/2 its income in helping contain Japan on the east. The war of attrition is one that the Germans can easily win when the UK has very little income to spend in Europe and the Russians in addition are sending out large chunks of their income in the opposite direction. What is your proposed UK build?
Even once you contain Japan, maybe by round 6? I consider containing as in they can no longer get troops onto the mainland, not just being a defensive fleet, otherwise they’re easily outproducing land troops in Asia. How many turns does it take the US to produce all those units? A turn or 2 to claim all those territories once contained, a turn to churn out the complexes, a turn to build tanks, a turn to blitz close to Russia, a turn to blitz into Russia, then a turn to finally participate in Europe? That’s a lot of turns to help a dead nation. I also fail to see how you can turn Japan into an 8 IPC nation with all its troops running around in Russia. Most likely it is Russia that is the 8 IPC nation far before Japan is.
I don’t doubt that you can contain Japan, but I doubt that you can stall Germany sufficiently with the remaining IPCs. The UK is very poor in Africa with half or more of its income spent every turn since the first in India, and if the US is spending enough money to reclaim Africa then that gives Japan an extra turn or more to dump more troops into Russia to suppress their money.
Doesn’t it make sense that you should be focusing on Germany? Germany is the most obvious threat to Russia: it is close and has good IC placement, it has a ton of troops and resources. Japan on the other hand is far, has to build transports and ICs, has fewer troops, and less resources. Many of the IPC you gain from Japan are paper IPCs (on islands) that dont help you further stage your attacks, unlike the zones like Ukraine/E. Euruope/Balkans.
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Sink should have 3 US Armored units, 2 US Infantry and 6 Russian Infantry before Japan could attack the IC there…
Alternate, schmalternate…blah. A matter of 30 minutes and I’d be whoopin everyone’s bootey and wearing a pirate hat at the same time! Ever see the jolly roger an a MO class BB? Scarey thoughts, eh?
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Sink should have 3 US Armored units, 2 US Infantry and 6 Russian Infantry before Japan could attack the IC there…
Really, how does that happen? First being that sinkiang can only produce 2 tanks a turn, second being that the US hasn’t even gotten a chance to produce any tanks there when Japan can attack it on turn 2, since the US goes last. If you only have 8 infantry in Sinkiang, an attack force of 5 inf 1 arm 6 fig 1 bomb has a 99% chance to win, and this is on J2.
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okay, two tanks. And there are many reasons that Japan would have been slowed down in their conquest allowing for Sink to have 1 full turn of production before enough Japanese forces are brought to bear to cause any real threat.
Though, I might even consider changing that to 1 armor, 1 AA gun…since Japan will most assuredly be using a lot of air power if they attack on J2 or J3.
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