Naval Strength levels

[Warwick]

I mentioned this in an other thread but several navies are over-powered for the period.

Using Italy as a base line then the following ratios would apply

1 BB = 4 real vessels
1 CV = 2 carriers ( based over the Eagle and Illustrious being the Brit East Med fleet)
1 CA = 10 Cruisers
1 DD = 13 Destroyers
1 Sub = 25 subs

Applying these ratios to neutrals we produce the following strength levels

Greece
BB - (1) - Greece had no battleships during WWII. The Lemnos and the Kiklis were both decommisioned. They served as a barraks ship and a AA training vessel.

DD - (2) - About 100% over strength. The Greek had 1 old CA, 12 Old Destroyers, and 2 modern Destoryers.

Greek navy should be 1 DD. The Greeks joined the allies with 1 CA (Averof), 6 DDs, and 5 Subs. They would grow to 44 vessels but these were new builds purchased by the Greek government in exile and should be subsumed into UK normal builds.

Yugoslavia Navy

DD - (1) - About 200% over strength. The Yugos had 1 CL and 4 DDs total. The rest were torpedo boats.

Norway

BB - (2) - No clue why these are here. The only battleships Norway possessed were 4 coastal defense vessels which they referred to as battleships. They displaced about 4000 tonnes each (making them about a 1/3 the size of a CA). They were basically upped gunned DDs.

DD - (1) - Norway had 4 modern destroyer (the Sleipner Class) and about a dozen very old DDs. 1 DD seems about right (this would include there coastal vessels)

SUB - (1) - Norway did not possess a significant number of subs

Denmark

DD - (1) - Denmark’s surface fleet consisted of 2 coastal defense boats (about the size of a big DD or light cruiser) and 11 torpedo boats. Vastly overrated compared to 13 DDs in the Italian navy.

SUB - (1) - 10 subs total the Danish navy all could be crewed by 10 each. Should not be represented in the game.

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If the allies need these forces for game balance then they should remain, however from a historical perspective the following changes should be explored.

Reduce the Greek fleet to 1 DD
Reduce the Norway Fleet to 1 DD
Eliminate the Yugo Fleet
Eliminate the Danish Fleet

I would also entertain switching Denmark to Pro-Axis with the special rule their defensive forces are removed on occupation rather than added to the Axis. Denmark order their defensive forces to stand down rather than defend in a hopeless cause.

[koba]

Excellent recommendations.

Torpedo boats… now there’s an interesting proposition.

[Ben_D]

I think you make alot of sense here Warwick.  The only thing I’m wondering about is how you scale the navies of all the other major powers, on top of the info you gave for Italy, if you considered even doing that.  It seems like you just compared pretty much everything to Italy.  Are the ratios the same for all the different major powers, or are they all different?  I’ve read arguments for both sides, so I’m pretty impartial either way because a person can make sense of it either way.

[Warwick]

I had Italy’s navy list in front of me. So it was just a matter of convenience. For comparison here is the Royal Navy

At start strength in 1939

15 BB
7 CV
66 CA
184 DD
60 SUB

v7.1 at start forces

4 BB
2 CV
3 CA
10 DD
2 SUB

Compared to Italy ratios

BB correct
CV correctish (UK had very small carriers so it is reasonable to believe a UK carrier represent more CVs than a US carrier)
CA England is short 3 CAs (or Italy has too many)
DD England is short 4 DD
SUBs correct

Historically there would be zero chance for Germany to significantly degrade the UK naval capacity, however we want a game that is fun to play rather than a pure WWII simulation.

information from www.naval-history.net

[Ben_D]

Ok, right on, I see how you’re doing it.  Another thing I’ll consider next time I get a chance to play (which might not be for a long while lol).

[rohr94]

just a note on historical accuracy, if you change things to be more proportional you’d also have to take into account that many ships in many nations navies were outdated, in some cases they were pre wwi ships.  obviously having lots of different attack and defense values for theses ships isnt very viable but just something to remember.