AARHE: Phase2: Game Sequence

[theduke]

What about this, for simplicity and to save time? 
-Russia has it’s turn first.
-Germany and Japan take their turn together, however, they stagger the steps in their turn order. For example, in this 1 Axis turn, Germany makes purchases, then Japan makes purchases, then Germany collects income, then Japan collects income, then Germany does combat move, then Japan does combat move, then Germany does combat, then Japan does combat, etc…
-UK and US take their turn togeter (also staggering the steps in the turn).

This shortens the length of the turn because 2 people are basically taking the turn at the same time twice per round (you have ~3 turns per round instead of 5), however, you still don’t have to worry about players attacking together since the combat phase is staggered (germany always attacks before japan).

[tekkyy]

@Imperious:

This is not correct… ON turn one its Soviet Union first then both axis, then all allies
on turn two its both axis followed by three allies.

Oh I see.

@theduke:

they stagger the steps in their turn order

Hmm thats interesting. It does save time but does have major effects.
Actually it could be more realistic on the timeline. Now US have to decide on purchasing before outcomes of USSR and UK’s battles.
But this is a big change.
Should think about it a bit.

[Imperious Leader]

Well in the case of these nations being played by different players they take their turn at the same time. This may mean different rate of conducting turn for each nation.

When playing only your combat phase …then this must be done together, because otherwise you “see” the results of other campaigns before your committed to even decide to attack… all other phases can be done at their own speed or should be IMO.

[theduke]

Alternatively, we could have both axis stagger their turns together and then have all allies stagger together. this would shorten the game a little more because now it’s just 2 turns per round. besides saving time, it also reduces down time. half the time it’s your move and the other half of the time you’re on defense and strategizing for when it’s your turn next. you’re always busy.

if we do this, then i think the axis should move first in every round. then the allies. this is both symbolic of the axis being the aggressors and also gives them a slight edge over OOB rules which improves game balance.

what should the staggering order be? for the axis, i think it should be germay, then japan to symbolize germany leading the way. for the allies, i’m not sure. i like russia, uk, then us.

[Imperious Leader]

On the first turn You cant allow the germans to go first: this is way too huge of a game changer. It may even be possible for germans to take Moscow or Ukraine G1… this cannot be allowed. IN the spring of 1942 the Soviets finished up their first offensive against the germans from the counteroffensive that began on December 6  1941 under Zukhov. Three new, specially prepared Soviet armies consisting of 1 million combat soldiers, attacked the German forces. The onslaught caught the German forces—exhausted, dug into heavy snow, freezing in the cold, and too widely dispersed—by surprise. The German defense disintegrated and thousands of German soldiers were taken prisoner.  Zukhov’s counterattack spared Moscow from the threat of German occupation and handed the Wehrmacht its first defeat. The Soviet hordes were finally exhausted by March 1942. The opening of the game must reflect this situation or dramatic changes must occur not limited to Soviet deployments and numbers of forces being changed.

[theduke]

I don’t think it will be much of a game changer to switch the order between the russians and the germans. even if it is a game changer in the OOB rules,there are so many new rules now that it might not be that big a deal. for example, attacking a VC gives the defender 1 2-hit inf is a good defensive boost to VC territories. how wll germany take moscow on g1?

it wouldn’t be a big deal to have all allies go, then all axis go. i don’t feel that strongly about it. the only reason why i proposed it was because the axis were the aggressors in wwii and the aggressors should naturally attack first.

[Imperious Leader]

Yes the axis go first… only on the first turn allowing germany to play before the Soviets really changes things because the established Soviet deployment at start was designed with Soviets move first plus its what actually happened. On the second turn everything goes back to axis followed by allies. that way no problems. The Soviets need to be allowed to destroy those germans at western russia territory or germany has a real advantage as they can now protect a sizable force.

[theduke]

i agree with you that it will be a big advantage for germany if they go first. however, i can just see it now. we have all the allies go, then both the axis. wouldn’t everyone ask, well then shouldn’t the game be called allies and axis instead.  :lol:

[Imperious Leader]

NO thats not the idea….

Turn 1
soviets
axis
allies

turn 2-turn 999
axis
allies

this is phase two BTW not phase one. sorry for confusion.

[theduke]

apparently it’s not clear because i didn’t know that the game sequence was set and done. why am i proposing all these ideas on game sequence if the rules for it are already set in stone? my last post was concerning my proposal, not anyone else’s.
in my proposal, i’m saying that to speed up things the russians should take their turn with the other allies… that way there are only 2 turns per round instead of 3. but what should the order to the 2 turns be? allies and then axis or the other way around? imp says russia needs to move first in the game.

i don’t think the turn sequence should change at all. every turn should be the same sequence as the turn before. i understand that your change is as simple a change as you can have, but it’s still a change and thus not simple enough for my taste.

[theduke]

for phase 1, i vote for no change in turn sequence rules… russia, germany, uk, japan then us as in OOB rules.

this is the only solution to my following criteria:
-same turn sequence throughout each turn
-russia goes before germany on turn 1
-germany goes before both uk and us on turn 1
-japan goes before us on turn 1

the only solution satisfying all those criteria are the OOB rules.

i still think we should keep the same order of stages within each turn… like develop weapons at the end of each turn.

[Imperious Leader]

The sequence change is in phase two: it was never addressed under phase one. Phase one is done and Phase two has started.
Lastly, only on the first turn we allow the Soviets to move first, then the axis, followed by the allies ( including Soviets)

EVERY other turn is conducted with both axis or italy as well playing then all the allies. thats it nothing more. The problem is solved with combining turns together to speed up play. Also, the idea is more historical because say one nation does not see the results of another nations failures… thus allowing them to modify their planning… turn sequence is basically “simultaneous” for all nations of a team, only the combat is resolved at the same time… otherwise each player moves his own forces at his own speed.

Actually he incorrectly posted this as phase one…its most likely what is going on here with all the confusion.

Also historically its really not possible for UK to get a early jump on Japan… in April 1942 Nagumo basically chased sommerville to Ceylon and the brits avoided the japanese because they were not in any position to attack them with their meager forces. Thats another reason why axis should move together. Now it may require some adjustments to UK’s position in India or some adjustment of Japans deployment of trannies near india and australia. I can easilly make these player aids for the kit.

BTW under playtesting ( adding some other rules we got a 35% reduction in playing time) which is much better adding no loss in fun factor.)

[tekkyy]

OK I didn’t realise none of it is for phase 1.

I know round sequence wasn’t discussed but I thought turn sequence was simple.
Victory condition is also essential for completeness.

I’ve changed the topic name to phase 2 now.

[Imperious Leader]

OK

[tekkyy]

In particular the collecting income before combat in the new turn sequence is a realism boost that is clean and simple thus I prefer it asap  :-)

[tekkyy]

@Imperious:

Also historically its really not possible for UK to get a early jump on Japan… in April 1942 Nagumo basically chased sommerville to Ceylon and the brits avoided the japanese because they were not in any position to attack them with their meager forces. Thats another reason why axis should move together. Now it may require some adjustments to UK’s position in India or some adjustment of Japans deployment of trannies near india and australia. I can easilly make these player aids for the kit.

I don’t prefer map changes but this isn’t map change.

I don’t mind minor changes to start up military. Either way people have to look up the table anyway. It quite a bit to memorize…that 10 x 10 or so table and 5 of them.

[Imperious Leader]

I did not propose a “map” change it was a remark about the inviability of allowing UK to move in the pacific before Japan. At the time of the game Japan was cresting and UK was still in trouble.

[tekkyy]

Yeah.

I am saying I don’t mind a new startup military location table.

[tekkyy]

So how does the combined turn thing work?

The whole team has phase 1, then phase 2, phase3, etc?

[Imperious Leader]

They all play each phase as they choose, except during movement and combat its done at the same time to avoid seeing the results of one combat action and then using this knowledge to move/ not move…attack/ not attack