GenCon Indy 2012

[Gargantua]

Wait, I have a better idea,

Why dont you just nuke both the purchase, placement phases, And just use the pieces that start on the board. That way you don’t have to -spend time- calculating your income everyturn, or worrying about what to buy.

You could even adapt this for use with the new 1941, so you have about half as many territories to worry about too.

Wait, maybe you can convert this to a simplified card game, and you won’t have to trouble people with the complicated task folding out the board, and setting it up.

No! Wait! I have it!

Why don’t you just roll a single die, and the high side gets the win? with a tie being a re-roll. That should save everyone the more ardous portions of Axis and Allies, and you can declare winners quickly, and clearly.

[ghr2]

Lol garg, you silly.

[ghr2]

We should have everyone from the website meet up some where at the convention.

[miamiumike]

Gargantua - while I am sure you find your comments pithy, you miss the point.

Play moves slow enough as it is - a typical anniversary game will get, at best, 6 rounds in (sometimes only 5). So - while a) figuring out during a turn how to get an NO and then b) confirming that one side did, in fact, get an NO may not add much time per turn, it does add up.

Also remember, the tournaments are designed to be open to both people who play the game a ton, and those who maybe do not play as often. Therefore, a simplifying assumption was made in this case.

Lastly, the NOs could also disrupt the balance of the game AS PLAYED in the tournament format (and the tournament victory conditions). This would require play testing and commentary.

So - the first year the anniversary was played, since it WAS new and we wanted to get as many people involved, like I said - we dropped it. Now, after several years, we DO revisit it every year to see if we should add it, and there is not a compelling reason to do so other than to just ‘change’ things.

MM

[Gargantua]

To be Frank, Mike.

Introducing a referee, and a simple hour glass (Battles excluded), is a far more effective means of running the tournament in a timely and effective manner, then perverting and changing the rules of the game on a whim.

For the record, you have NEVER HELD an Axis and Allies Anniversary tournament, because you’re not even playing by the rules, concept, or intention of the game.  The NO’s in Anniversary provide the balance that’s required, and the game is broken without them.

The compelling reason to change your tournament format and play the game properly, is just that, to play it properly.

The question that should be asked isn’t “Why should we change now?”, it’s “why did people feel compelled to strike sections of the rules, because they were too lazy or inadequate to understand them”.

Koodo’s to you for hosting, and running a large Axis and Allies Tournament, that’s good news for everybody involved.  But don’t half-a$$ it.  Calculating NO’s takes about an extra 30 seconds each game round.  Where the next player has likely already started his turn ANYWAYS.

Even if you refused to let the next player start before the last one has calculated his income, that’s only + 3 minutes over the span of an ENTIRE game.

THE POINT IS: People who go to tournaments, expect to play by the latest and understood rules.  They don’t expect to be subjected to arbitrary conditions, and ill-developed course of play, by tournament administrators.

NO ONE plays Anniversary without NO’s.

[Gargantua]

And do you host any GLOBAL tournaments?

[smo63]

@djensen:

Has anybody ever played in one of Smorey’s tournaments? The backwards bidding took me much longer to wrap my head around. I much prefer the “I will play Allies of you give me 10” and respone, “well I can play Allies for 9!”

Smorey’s is like “I will give you the Allies and 9” and response, “well I’ll give you Allies and 10.”

Next, the Anniversary tournaments seem to use rules that nobody actually plays with. Strategic bombing escorts? No National Objectives?

I may not be playing much AA50 at GenCon as I thought.

Dave,

I bet you didn’t think I would be here responding?  Just curious though, this is the kind of things I was talking about regarding G40 rules and the like.  Onliners continue to knock the system when they haven’t even tried it and used it in the setting by which it was created for.  You and I have discussed this before at length.

On the bid front, we ( myself and a few guys from California) created a bid system that was simiple and easy and it has worked now for 19 years.  It is kind of like an auction.  You know your own game and know what it takes to win under those conditions, so you bid up until you think that is enough….and then your opponent counters with the same.

Bidding 10, 9, is counting backwards and is really “backwards bidding”…so, I am not sure how you can say that about the system we created.  It is all in the positive direction.  It was created online for online gamers.  Again, my point that I have been making for along time now…

@djensen:

Next, the Anniversary tournaments seem to use rules that nobody actually plays with. Strategic bombing escorts? No National Objectives?

I may not be playing much AA50 at GenCon as I thought.

Not sure when you talk about “Nobody”.  Again, speak for yourself and those people that have no concept of the game other than their own opinion.  You know Larry and I have worked hard on trying to transition all the AA games from OB play, with the rules as is, and slightly modify them to have a great game played in a tournament format, FTF, within a time limit.  This is not rocket science nor is it something we can just put in stone and go with it.  We have to try out what we think is best for the game then continue to work it so that everyone enjoys the format by which they basically set.

As far as you not playing AA50.  Why do you say that.  You are defeating your purpose of going to GEN CON and the ability by which you have to voice your opinion on how the system works.  Hey, when I met you several years ago in LA at GEN CON, there was no complaining then and knocking the system?

I really hope you get all your guys together and come and play.  There will be a suggestion box for all those that do play and I am always open to new ideas that work for the best of FTF play.

Hey, everything I have even done at Origins, GEN CON and the Spring Gathering is based on what the players that show up and play want.  Not what the guys that sit behind their computers and play want.  When they make suggestions, we listen and try to do what they want and make it the best system there is to play under the circumstances we are in.  Sweat and simple.

So, please Dave, don’t go knocking the system when you haven’t given it a chance.  These systems are created for everyone, not just the super so called experienced, AA gamers.

Peace,
Gregory J. Smorey
Event Organizer/GM - GEN CON/Origins/Spring Gathering
www.headlesshorseman2.com

A good plan today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow. - General George S. Patton

[smo63]

@robbie358:

I will try to make it.  Last year I just played Global '40 two times as well as my Star Trek CCG 1st Edition for a day.
I’d like to mix it up and get into a 50th tourney.  I like ALL the rules, NOs, tech, the works.  We’ll see what the tournament director says.

The tournament director says that we can’t start changing things a month before the CON.  Come and play in the tournament without the NO’s, etc. and then tell me if you think it works.  If there is enough flak about it, then it can change.  But why change something that has worked since the game came out…?  Don’t fix what isn’t broken.  And for anyone to say it is broken without trying it is just plain…well, I won’t go there…

Gregory J. Smorey
Event Organizer/GM - GEN CON/Origins/Spring Gathering
www.headlesshorseman2.com

A good plan today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow. - General George S. Patton

[miamiumike]

Gargantua,

Huh, that is so weird. I guess all the hours that Greg and I and our other GM Kelly put into running these events, developing relationships with the players and listening to their ideas and changing things when there is a strong demand AND the large number of cool prizes and A&A gear that are given out was ALL IN MY FRIGGIN HEAD.

Perhaps you should get out from behind your computer and organize an event or two. You may be surprised to find that what works in the online world does not work as well in the real world (remembering of course that A&A is a BOARD game - which was designed to be played on a board and in a FTF environment).

THE POINT IS: People who go to tournaments, expect to play by the latest and understood rules. � They don’t expect to be subjected to arbitrary conditions, and ill-developed course of play, by tournament administrators.

That line is priceless and proves you don’t have the first clue what you are talking about. The people who GO to these tournamants (rather than sit behind a computer and criticize them) have helped develop the tournament AND the rules that are in use today. Larry, by the way, also was involved in the design and setup of these rules - his input was very valuable. But, I suppose the designer of the game really doesn’t have a leg to stand on here, right?

In closing, for someone who claims to know ALL the rules and that they are the ‘understood’ and the only rules out there - it might interest you to know, that BOTH Technology and National Objectives are OPTIONAL RULES in the rulebook. Huh, go figure.

MM

[smo63]

@Gargantua:

we wanted people to play asa much as possible, rather than spending additional time trying to figure out what NOs they had or how to get them.

What?

If you’re not competent enough to calculate NO’s at the end of the turn, or incorporate them into general strategic thinking, then you SHOULDN’T be playing Axis and Allies.

That’s like saying, “Lets play the game without Artillery, Cruisers, or Bombers, because we want people playing Axis and Allies, and not spending additional time figuring out what these units can do, and how many options they have”

Absurd.

Hold a risk tournament instead.

Gargantua, Yes, you are a villian and have a small mind to back it.  I can’t believe you were even competent enough to respond to this post without hurting yourself.  As far as those who shouldn’t be playing AA, really only those self proclaimed villians come to mind.

Attacks on a event, system, game that one has never tried or even completely understand what we are talking about, just continues to prove my point about the negative attacks on the FTF AA community.

WotC hires me to create AA game events for all level of players to come, sit down and play AA, FTF, in a fun and exciting environment.  Not in a some socialistic way that most online gamers think they should be.

So, if I were you, and that would never happen, I would just come to GEN CON, play and see how competent you really are at playing the basics of AA whatever version.  Becaue if you can’t win playing the basics, how competent do your really think you are playing in any rules set of AA?  It think maybe you should start with the 1941 game…that might get you a win here or there…

Peace,
Gregory J. Smorey
Event Organizer/GM - GEN CON/Origins/Spring Gathering
www.headlesshorseman2.com
A good plan today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow. - General George S. Patton

[smo63]

@miamiumike:

Gargantua,

Huh, that is so weird. I guess all the hours that Greg and I and our other GM Kelly put into running these events, developing relationships with the players and listening to their ideas and changing things when there is a strong demand AND the large number of cool prizes and A&A gear that are given out was ALL IN MY FRIGGIN HEAD.

Perhaps you should get out from behind your computer and organize an event or two. You may be surprised to find that what works in the online world does not work as well in the real world (remembering of course that A&A is a BOARD game - which was designed to be played on a board and in a FTF environment).

THE POINT IS: People who go to tournaments, expect to play by the latest and understood rules. � They don’t expect to be subjected to arbitrary conditions, and ill-developed course of play, by tournament administrators.

That line is priceless and proves you don’t have the first clue what you are talking about. The people who GO to these tournamants (rather than sit behind a computer and criticize them) have helped develop the tournament AND the rules that are in use today. Larry, by the way, also was involved in the design and setup of these rules - his input was very valuable. But, I suppose the designer of the game really doesn’t have a leg to stand on here, right?

In closing, for someone who claims to know ALL the rules and that they are the ‘understood’ and the only rules out there - it might interest you to know, that BOTH Technology and National Objectives are OPTIONAL RULES in the rulebook. Huh, go figure.

MM

MM,

I second that.  Well put, well said…!  Thanks.

Gregory J. Smorey
Event Organizer/GM - GEN CON/Origins/Spring Gathering

A good plan today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow. - General George S. Patton

[Gargantua]

Look at the reasons you chose the rules you did.

You didn’t want players troubled with spending time “thinking” or “strategizing”.  That’s an insult to everyone who ever considered themselves a strategy gamer.  The first stone is thrown from your court.

As for your personal attacks against me -individually-.

• For the record, I own Larry’s copy of Anniversary, -signed- and I own one of his box copies -signed- of the Nova Games release.  Would you like me to post pictures?

• I’m also running an online tournament of Global, which is played by the rules.  With a grand prize of $200 which I have posted myself.  Whats the best tournament prize you have given away?  There are also some other nuggets I’ve stored away, for runners-up.

Perhaps you should get -behind- your computer, and log on the internet, to see what the majority of players world wide are playing, before you decide that california must be the centre of the Axis and Allies universe.

• I also flew across the continent this spring to attend the FMG convention in Oshawa, where people attended in uniform, and the venue was a museum.  Players were encouraged to play by internationally accepted standards rules - for the record.  Not Californian house breeds.

Attacks on a event, system, game that one has never tried or even completely understand what we are talking about, just continues to prove my point about the negative attacks on the FTF AA community.

Ok, so I’m the bad guy for attacking your system?

But you’re the good guy for attacking me personally?  If that’s how we’re supposed to play this game, then so be it.  With David Jensen’s unilateral permission I’ll put you right in your place. But I’ll wait for his reply first.

Or if you prefer, perhaps showing up at Gen Con Indy, would be a preffered medium?

And lets not even start with your attacks on people who play online.  What did they do to you?  And if you’re trying to -increase- your Gencon attendance, perhaps you should try some honey instead of vinegar.

For the final record, the future of the game doesn’t lie in the typical board game format, but in some of the electronic versions (Which are entirely playable face to face) which exist.  Something you’d understand if you broadend your horizon’s, and made more friends than enemies.

P.S. If you want to impress us all that with the fact that you “worked” for WOTC, how about starting by getting Honolulu on the right island. Or releasing a game that doesn’t require a second edition two weeks later.

[wheatbeer]

@smo63:

WotC hires me to create AA game events for all level of players to come, sit down and play AA, FTF, in a fun and exciting environment.  Not in a some socialistic way that most online gamers think they should be.

From what I gather at our forum, the majority of online players are also FtF players.  What does “socialistic way” mean exactly?

[Cow]

You don’t want the dice in my hands. I live in Hawaii so, I can’t do these face to face games. Someday I’ll fly over and it would be a most baller experience.

[Asterios]

My 2 cents, I already no the original way to play, and I’d rather learn the new way to play, and as an organiser of conventions and events in the past for various other things, people want to know about the new rules and new stuff before rehashing the old things.

so not sure where you did your organising at or who gave you the input, but people do not go to play the same old same old but to learn the new stuff, hell they run conventions for the explicit reason of teaching and showing the new stuff, not the old stuff.

[Asterios]

By the Way i’m curious if any of these arbitary rules are in the Official game rulebook or even errata put out by WotC cause I have found none regarding said rules, and to be honest I would be a bit miffed if I went to a game con to play a game along the current rules and find out some organiser decided to throw in some rules he made up for fun.

[questioneer]

I’ve been to Greg’s tournys once.  Although I don’t agree with the formats of some of the games (ex 1942 and AA50) it works for them.  AA.org players are used to playing a different way.

Greg and I have had this debate over the years of which players are better- AA.org/TripleA or GenCon crew.  Having been involved with both, I know the online guys have the edge.  Greg will always lend a hand out to the online players to come down and challenge them but its on their terms and format which many here may not like.  Time constraints are not the issue, format is.

They play the 42 w/o NatObj in AA50- I refuse to play that version- much prefer the 41 w/NatObj.  When asked to let players have the choice he refused saying that it “saves time” and “that the 41 develops into the 42 anyway”- false and false.  I was gonna go in 2009 and 2010 but I just could not agree with that tourny format- strips the game down to nothing.

Then in the AA42 game you have the wacky bonus system where LA is worth nothing for example.  There are proven strategies where there is the possibility of gain LA- this limits that.  Again, I think they should just play by the rules.

Greg came to me to help develop the G40 tourny rules, so if anyone complains about it- you can blame me not Greg.  Had to bring him up to speed on the Alpha development though and that took a while.

All in all, Greg runs a solid show there, so you will have some fun and you will meet some challenging players- not as good as online though IMHO.

[questioneer]

The bid system is similar to what we do here- not really a big deal IMO

[miamiumike]

Gargantua,

I was not the one to start with the personal insults - you were when I was just posting some inforamtion about GenCon and you started ranting about how it wasn’t a real tournament, etc.

That being said - you STILL miss the entire point of my post. What works for online play (and online tournaments) in some cases, will NOT work for FTF play (and FTF tournaments). The reverse is also true. That has been my point from the beginning. However, you (and other online players) would rather just run down what we do at the Cons - which is certainly your right, but is hardly productive conversation. We sure do want as many players as possible - but, as I have pointed out Tech and NOs are OPTIONAL rules in AA50 - we are not making this up.

I play a fair amount online myself (with the NOs) and enjoy it very much - it fits a niche to allow me to play when FTF is not practical - and it does so very well. I just don’t see why online players seem to look down their noses to people who actually still play the game FTF in a tournament setting. I certianly have never had that reaction myself.

In the end - let us call a truce here - it is a small world and I would rather we meet on the field of battle in some way, shape or form than exchanging nasty-o-grams on a forum.  :-)

Regards
MM

[Veqryn]

@smo63:

WotC hires me to create AA game events for all level of players to come, sit down and play AA, FTF, in a fun and exciting environment.  Not in a some socialistic way that most online gamers think they should be.

lol wut?

I’m pretty sure we are all capitalists here….

[except for the ussr players…]

I don’t really know what all the fuss is about.

Is A&A the only franchise where people who play it Face 2 Face exclusively hate the people who play it online?

I don’t hear much about people who play Chess face to face hating on people who play chess by mail / email / online / etc.

To be perfectly honest, I don’t think there is a single person who plays online who wouldn’t jump at the chance to play face to face, and I do believe most of them do.
The only real difference is that many people don’t have friends or a gaming group willing to sit down and play a 2-12 hour game.  I don’t know a single person in real life who lives in my city who is willing to play Axis and Allies, which is I mostly play online (except when I go back to my hometown, when I can manage to get a f2f game).

Some things work better in online environments, and some better in face to face environments, but to be honest there really is not much of a difference at all.  I think the main difference would probably be that f2f environments can accept more “house rules” than online, simply because you have a board instead of a software, so you can do whatever you want.

If smorey has taken the time to run a tournament, let him do it his way.  If you don’t know how to play AA50 1942 without NOs, then just ask for some help on what the average bid should be, and have fun playing a relatively new game (new for you), and probably getting your ass kicked.

The only thing I wonder at, is why smorey seems so hostile?