HBG Sea Mine, Research, Radar, SS Markers & Land Mine [Acrylic Markers]

[Imperious Leader]

Because quite many where volunteers foreigners, and when they saw Germany started to lose, they did not volunteer in such big numbers anymore.

That is more true in the late war and those divisions are not represented by tokens. What is represented is the first and best crack divisions. By the wars end as many of 25% of the whermacht forces got designated at “SS” but it was in name only. The 1st, 2nd, 3rd Waffen SS and a few others were mostly Germans trained before the war and as loses mounted they opened the units to foreign soldiers.

[supermestizo]

@Imperious:

Because quite many where volunteers foreigners, and when they saw Germany started to lose, they did not volunteer in such big numbers anymore.

That is more true in the late war and those divisions are not represented by tokens. What is represented is the first and best crack divisions. By the wars end as many of 25% of the whermacht forces got designated at “SS” but it was in name only. The 1st, 2nd, 3rd Waffen SS and a few others were mostly Germans trained before the war and as loses mounted they opened the units to foreign soldiers.

Maybe my suggestions is to powerful, and I agree it has to be balanced.
Many of the foreign volunteers SS Divisions where as good as the “truly German” divisions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_SS_Panzer_Division_Wiking

[Imperious Leader]

Yes in cases right, but by wars end alot of these never got the same replacements of equipment. After combat like say the Budapest Offensive of 1945, these units got spent.

Basically from Kursk on, the Waffen units saw a slow decline in capability due to shortages. Hitler was more interested in “representing” that he had the same divisions and downgrading them in an attempt to refill other units again due to lack of replacements.

Tanks and men kept declining and these divisions shrank and hardly represented their former status.

[GuamSolo]

IL - Why do you want to limit mines to one per area?  AA guns are not limited like this.  I was thinking about Russia using this as Germany approaches her cities, but I would rather use the $6 to buy infantry who can take a hit and can also fire back repeatedly.  At the most I would spend $6 on taking out 3 German infantry.  If I can place more mines and possibly get a chance at hitting tanks or artillery then it is more appealing to me, and I am forced to choose between that risk (of not hitting any) and placing more Russian infantry.

In the sea it makes more sense because any ship you hit is an expensive unit comparable to one mine.

[Imperious Leader]

IL - Why do you want to limit mines to one per area?

Glitching. I see that it would stifle sea movement which players would make “nuke zones” of these mines and blockade sections of the map. The Axis would be particularly at a disadvantage.

Air units flying over for SBR or combat constitutes a small fraction of player forces. Most of the time he can avoid the AA guns and just attack elsewhere.

Sea Mines can be used to block movement entirely, which is not good for the game.

On land perhaps this issue is less so, so perhaps multiple land mine zones would work.

[GuamSolo]

I think you are right about the sea mines.  Probably good to limit them to one per sea zone then, but still worthwhile as they can cause some valuable damage.

What then regarding land mines?  Should there be any limit at all?  I think sea zones having more staying power as ships would continually move through the zone throughout the game.  Land mines would defend against an approach by an enemy and be used prior to battles, which if you lost the battle the mines would be removed.  Only if the enemy withdraws and then attacks again would the mines get another shot.

Second question: Do you think land mines should get more than three rolls?  It might make them realistically more appealing and cost effective for a defense as opposed to just buying infantry?  4 rolls per mine?

[Imperious Leader]

In making these kinds of rules i find its best to keep the same system as OOB units, just plug in something different but within the system.

Costing 12 or 6 creates similarity with OOB ( installations and AA guns)

The combat effects are just modeled after AA guns: what we have is AA guns of the sea and land, which is why the rules are so similar.

People tend to accept House rules if the ideas seem like something that might have already been designed.

Why do you see a 6 IPC land mine with 3 rolls @1 being replaced with 4 rolls @1?

I think it is no issue to allow multiple land mines, like AA guns.

I also think we agree that multiple sea mines is a bad idea.

[Imperious Leader]

I made edits on the original idea. ( check first post)

Anyone have some ideas on these rules? Changes?

[GuamSolo]

Originally I thought you were advocating for a limit of one mine for land as you were with the sea zones.  Sea zones made sense, but not land mines.  If you would allow for more than one land mine then it makes more sense.  Otherwise why spend $6 to roll three dice @1 only one time when you can roll two dice @2 ( two infantry) multiple times, and take hits?  The difference between the land mine and AA guns is that even with one hit you are taking out an aircraft which is worth it.  Odds are with the mine you are taking out an infantry, maybe two, but probably none - economically your are going in the whole most of the time.  But the possibility of hitting an aircraft with AA guns makes the three rolls a better deal, both economically and defensively to win the battle.  If a mine were 4 rolls @1 then the mine becomes worth the investment by the defender.  You spent $6, good chance of hitting at least once, possibly two, and on rare occasion three!  At least the investment becomes more appealing, but still risky because in the end you may still wish you had spent the money on infantry.

I am just thinking out loud here so feel free to push back on my logic.  It has been known to be off sometimes, at least that is what my wife says.

[Imperious Leader]

We agree here. Land can have more than one land mine, sea zones can have only one mine due to the cost of what is getting hit, plus glitching.

Do you see any changes so far? Before you commented on land mines getting 4 shots for 6 ipc. Why do you feel that is better?

[GuamSolo]

I thought four rolls @1 for the reason I mentioned earlier:

Choice #1: $6 for mine = 3 rolls @1 prior to battle
Choice #2: $6 for 2 infantry = 2 rolls @2 each round, can take hits

“The difference between the land mine and AA guns is that even with one hit you are taking out an aircraft which is worth it.  Odds are with the mine you are taking out an infantry, maybe two, but probably none - economically your are going in the hole most of the time.  But the possibility of hitting an aircraft with AA guns makes the three rolls a better deal, both economically and defensively to win the battle.”

Thanks for you thoughts IL, by the way HBG just posted their rules for these on their website.

[Imperious Leader]

by the way HBG just posted their rules for these on their website.

where? link? Cant find it.

[Imperious Leader]

NM found it:

http://www.historicalboardgaming.com/HBG-Fuel-Markers-Acrylic-_p_804.html