The Japan Playbook

[Cow]

yunnan fic

EDIT: Also seen Hunan used in more defensive situations against Russian advancements.

[Dark_Destroyer]

Last night I did a J1 Pearl Harbor, man… that was a terrible idea lol.  USA slammed me hard with it’s fleet and planes from mainland, wiped my SZ6 and Carolina fleets.  Had like 1 Carrier left with 1 plane.  :cry:

[Dark_Destroyer]

BTW Cow, you forgot to tally the USA +2 income because of Brazil.  :wink:

[JDOW]

I am quite sure he didn’t:) At least in several posts he mentioned it.
@cow: First of all, thanks a lot your taking the effort and posting strategy including complete moves. I really think that there are too few people here taking that burden and real discuss and present concrete strategies and not only abstract concepts.

I tried to read the entire thread, I observed a bunch of games of Tier 1 players, I made few private games myself. I would like to make some comments and ask some questions:

• I think that your DOW1 move is really good in general. IF you DOW1 I think it is a very logic and well thought through move. Good job! I also tried it out and won, however the opponents were not representative for solid Allied play.

BTW: I have seen seththenewb making a Pearl Harbour against Gamerman in a running game (http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31508.0)
I guess he will lose it but he had really bad dices in J1 and could not capture Yunnan and the +6 for ZH is a real headache for JP. So I would be interested how the game would have gone in case Yunnan would have been rolled based on low luck.
–> I am not sure if the Pearl Harbour is better but it seems valid to me

• I kind of disagree about your statement “The effect of J1DOW in Europe is just 23 extra IPCs thrown by US in the Atlantic”. I mean people do make bids of 10-12 because they think these IPCs are the gamechanger to equilize the game. they have more impact than the 23 US IPCs as the bid-IPS usually always make a significant impact in the first round but on the other hand it is 23 - twice the amount i the J1DOW case.
  Furthermore we all know that such IPCs will be paid off with kind of an interest. The consequences of J1DOW is:

• US could sustainably go into SZ91 with an invasion force US2

• US could deploy bombers in UK in US2
  This is creating threats which actually cost Germany money and slows them down. They will either invest in defense or they have to lose some air for clean ups which in addition prevents the air from doing other things. So especially in Europe I am convinced that US involved 1 round earlier can have a significant impact on the success rate of the Axis. How significant? I don’t know but I would say more than you state:)

• So far you insist (and nobody disagreed so far) that any DOW3/4 is just objectively bad. While I do not clearly disagree here I am still not sure if this must be the case.
  The objective disadvantage is that you allow UKPAC and ANZAC to collect more resources. But on the other side stand 20 IPCs less for US and still 10 bonus for JP and no NOs war related NOs for Anzac.
  Plus - and this is my point - JP also has the option to make optimized operations against ZH (sometimes wiping out TH inf with Air only) and allows you to prepare an even more powerful and unpredictable J3 DOW.

Allweeneedislove for example even sacrificed the +10 bonus in a current game by taking FIC for the sake of building an IC 1 round earlier.
Against gamerman he even waited till Round4. the consequence was the threat to drop 14 ground supported by 16-18 Air to India forcing gamerman to leave India and offer it for free J4 (The game btw looks still good for gamerman as he is very strong in Europe that game)

Plus: Germany has 1 more round they have not to deal with any US invasion.

However in a nutshell I just state:

• Minus 20 for US
• 1 Round of silence in the Atlantic
• Even more powerful and unpredictable J3/J4 DOW

I think especially in combination with a max speed Barbarossa a late Japan DOW can indeed make sense and is afaik also played successfully be very strong players.

BUT I also have to admit that I am not sure whether:

• …they won despite the late DOW and not because of it
• … J3/J4 DOW is maybe not a plan you start the game with but a deviation because of certain unpredictable opportunities which can arise during the game.

So does everybody agree that J3/J4 DOW is just bad or are there also players believing it is a viable and successful strategy?

Cheers,
Tobias

[ghr2]

I guess it really depends on how strong they of an India they want to deal with and if they want to pressure russia from the east.  It also depends on the japanese buys and naval positioning for the first 2-3 rounds.  If The US and anzac link up at queensland round 2 or 3, it becomes tricky for japan to keep the money islands secure, even more tricky to protect all of the transports.  The best way to do a J3 or J4, in my eyes, is to try to make it look like you can declare war at any time so the allies don’t prepare for it correctly.

[JDOW]

@ghr2:

I guess it really depends on how strong they of an India they want to deal with and if they want to pressure russia from the east.  It also depends on the japanese buys and naval positioning for the first 2-3 rounds.

I think there is no choice in the north to always keep enough ground there that you can wipe off any Amur stack if he dares to come in there.
regarding the buys there is imo usually not too much of a choice for Japan as you need to my mostly transports and usually 1 IC. I’d say only a small fraction of the JP money can be spend variable on e.g. Naval in case US invests a lot in the Pacfic or rather into e.g. a bomber if US invests more in the Atlantic.

If The US and anzac link up at queensland round 2 or 3, it becomes tricky for japan to keep the money islands secure, even more tricky to protect all of the transports.

The best way to do a J3 or J4, in my eyes, is to try to make it look like you can declare war at any time so the allies don’t prepare for it correctly.

I have to say I do not exactly understand that so far but maybe I am biased as in my current game my opponent threw ALL US money in the Pacific neglecting Europe.
To my understanding it should be the goal of US to take Caroline and build a sustainable outpost there. This is imo possible with the help of Anzac. After DOW JP usually must clear Caroline. US takes, Anzac secures with 3 fighters for scramble plus some naval.

But I see that the reach to the money islands is better from Queensland so I agree that US/ANZAC can harass better from there and Caroline is rather the “next” move to increase the pressure on JP.

[JDOW]

The best way to do a J3 or J4, in my eyes, is to try to make it look like you can declare war at any time so the allies don’t prepare for it correctly.

Agree:)

[Cow]

moo

[Derek]

bump, this along with German and Allied strategy playbook needs stickied ;)

[Derek]

bump… :-D

[A Former User]

Been out of the loop for a long while. Enjoying this thread, I now really want to try a J1 DOW on the western allies.

But I’m interested to hear what to do J1 with 18inf and 2 aa on Amur R1.

Is it better to ignore this stack for now and proceed as usual (ie going south) whilst leaving say 10 inf and 1ftr in Manchuria? Or smash Amur with everything you can J1.

Seems like if I do the latter, Japan gets set back in the Pacific and out of position straight away since I’m used to going straight for DEI and India. Furthermore the Mongolian inf become Russian which is annoying because more resources need to be directed away from what I really want to be doing in the South.

Maybe if Japan attacks the Russian stack at Amur on J1, Germany must be ready to go all out on Russia and not bother with Sealion. Japan should then also push on Russia since were now at war and I’ve done the dirty work of clearing them out in far east. I don’t necessarily want play this way, it just seems Russia has kinda invited me to go this route now. Thoughts?

[ChocolatePancake]

When Russia puts everything in Amur R1, I always like to take it out right away. Just delay attacking the allies until J2 or J3.
Those 18 infantry are all Russia has in the east, and there aren’t any reinforcements likely to be coming, other than the Mongolians, which really aren’t much of a threat. Generally this move hurts Russia more than it hurts Japan in my experience. It definitely makes it easier for Germany to take Russia.

[AK_Grown]

War war war.

Even if Russia doesn’t stack Amur, attack the hell out of them.  You both are going to lose troops, but 6 extra infantry from Mongolia makes very little difference in the long run.  As Japan, you are gaining IPC’s by taking the territory.  You are also making Russia watch its back-side while dealing with Germany.  You are doing J1?  Then kill them J2 or J3.  The earlier, the easier.

You can leave the road open in China, and still control the islands and push Russia/India.  You just don’t push as far into China and counter-attack their counter-attack.  Eventually, the Chinese have the road as the only territory they own.  I’ve only seen it in action once and it was from a very good player in our live game.

J1 is a great move.  The only problem I’ve had with it, is the Atlantic Slam.  Germany or Italy (depending on troop placement) usually falls before I can get the VC’s needed to win in the PAC.  Stack Hawaii and Sydney and its better luck next time.

[Cow]

shameless bump

[Young Grasshopper]

I do the J1 every time, good chance of getting Island NO round 2, I build up to 4 factories on the mainland, bomb and convoy India til they can’t buy a single unit, and I push China back to their last 3 territories. Everything else after that is all progress for Japan.

[ItIsILeClerc]

Hey Cow,

since you are using tripleA anyway, why not add a tsvg-file of your J1/J2 playbook? Maybe even in your original post (if that’s even possible).

Regarding the J1/J2 openers:
I have played as allies against this several times now. My opponents were all strong enough so I can say with certainty that you should warn axis players of the +40/+20 IPCs the USA will have for a J1DOW or J2DOW respectively. This is another pitfall, in addition to the Yunnan-one you already mentioned.

Not digging too deeply into all the variable strategies but those extra IPCs for the USA are going to hurt the one the USA chooses to kill first.

[Cow]

Man I still have not got around to updating my j2 lol. Can someone do that for me lol. I tend to almost always do J1 dow unless Russia knee deep in china…. in which case I will setup for a J2 a certain way.

[IKE]

@Young:

I do the J1 every time, good chance of getting Island NO round 2, I build up to 4 factories on the mainland, bomb and convoy India til they can’t buy a single unit, and I push China back to their last 3 territories. Everything else after that is all progress for Japan.

Isn’t this a big blow to the Germans & Italians with USA in the war turn 1?  Curious what your buys are with this strategy. I assume you bring the entire IJN down to Philippines/Borneo?

[Young Grasshopper]

@IKE:

@Young:

I do the J1 every time, good chance of getting Island NO round 2, I build up to 4 factories on the mainland, bomb and convoy India til they can’t buy a single unit, and I push China back to their last 3 territories. Everything else after that is all progress for Japan.

Isn’t this a big blow to the Germans & Italians with USA in the war turn 1?  Curious what your buys are with this strategy. I assume you bring the entire IJN down to Philippines/Borneo?

Gaining early position in the south Pacific is much more important than keeping money out of America’s pockets. My J1 purchases are 2 transports and 1 minor factory, I keep 1 loaded carrier, 1 cruiser, 1 sub, 1 destroyer in sz#6 and 2 fighters on Tokyo to protect the new transports (maybe less if I put up a blocker) checkout the J1 strategies within this thread, they work quite well.

[Cow]

I just buy 3 transports with Japan personally. Next round I can slap down an airbase or a naval base or replace fighters if I have to attack China with all my air or something.