Thanks for the feedback!
World War Three!?
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Incorrect. China is the other energy superpower and won’t let the US Gobble everything up.
China is the reason we have to pay more at the pump, they’re importing fossil fuels faster then any other nation and burning them up in a very inefficient manner polluting the air for generations without regard for the well being of other nations.
Meanwhile, the United States has been working on more efficient, cleaner methods of producing energy for well over 3 decades now starting back in the Days of Richard Nixon continuing through Reagan, Bush1, Clinton and Bush2. Though, because we are Americans, the world will never give us the credit we are due and blame us for all their woes. It’s the penalty you get for being on top.
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@Cmdr:
Incorrect. China is the other energy superpower and won’t let the US Gobble everything up.
China is the reason we have to pay more at the pump, they’re importing fossil fuels faster then any other nation and burning them up in a very inefficient manner polluting the air for generations without regard for the well being of other nations.
Meanwhile, the United States has been working on more efficient, cleaner methods of producing energy for well over 3 decades now starting back in the Days of Richard Nixon continuing through Reagan, Bush1, Clinton and Bush2. Though, because we are Americans, the world will never give us the credit we are due and blame us for all their woes. It’s the penalty you get for being on top.
I never said China wasn’t but would they risk a war with America? they have the pipeline from russia, all the oil in south east pacific and can gobble up all teh neglected places in the world. (like nigeria) also they are like the world’s leader producer of coal or something.
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Well according to our commander-in-chief WWIII is apparently not avoidable unless Iran suspends it’s nuclear weapons program - a program which in fact Iran does not even have, according to all credible sources including our very own NIE.
So apparently WWIII comes about once we have a world power leader so bent on ultimate control and dominance that they will no longer listen to the facts and reason of their advisers or the rest of the world.
Are we there yet? :roll:
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shouldn’t be listening to the rest of the world IMO.
also wern’t those the same sources that said they had the stuff and were discredited and we were told they were lieing to us before? -
Koria and Vietnam, even the Afgan-USSR conflicts/wars were all part of a larger operation. the USSR or China were spreading and the US with allies support moved to stop the spread of Communism. just because there was no big battles between US/Allied troops and USSR/China troops dosn’t mean that it wasn’t a war (other then there were but history dosn’t play them up enough for the masses to even recongize them). nether force wanted to fully declare war in such a public display as that could lead to nukes getting used. it was a war and it invalved many of the countrys of the world. it’s just not called a “war” in the normal sence of the word because that would look bad to the political powers.
Korea & Vietnam were civil wars (and in some ways, antimperial conflicts) escalated, by other countries. The core conflict was about areas that were trying to gain unified independence. They were just carved up post WW2 by the victors who now were fighting against each other for superiority, fueling the initial grudge with their own desires.
Afghanistan is probably closer to the Cold War, but again, no direct conflict with the key nations involved in that nonconflict.
They were all definitely wars, but could only relatively be applied to the Cold War since you had 2 superpowers (and others) getting involved into any conflict that might help them. But none of them ever did.The Cold War was more about world domination than stopping Communism anyway. Stopping communism was just the excuse.
Besides, we were originally arguing for/against the Cold War being WW3. It was no where near the scope or depth of WW1 or WW2, even when you consider several isolated conflicts over the 50 year period, so my point is that it was not a World War.
@Cmdr:
Those civil wars were caused by the Cold War though. If there was no cold war, there would have been no strife and thus no conflict in which to fight a civil war.
Just my opinion, of course.
Not going to comment on the rest just yet, but they were not caused by the Cold War. As I said, they are easily attributed to the Cold War because of the involvement of the US, USSR, and possibly others, but they were simply Civil Wars. These were countries looking from independence from everyone, and a unified homeland. They’d been through occupation for sometime, even before WW2. It was the time for self determination. We just never saw that - we thought we were keeping the Russkies from controlling the world. That’s why we couldn’t win Vietnam and why the Koreas are still separate today.
@ncscswitch:
Beyond the Proxy Wars already mentioned (Vietnam and Korea) there were a LOT of other proxy wars fought… Angola, Chile, Cuba, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, The Sinai, Berlin… All of these engagements were conflicts of the larger World War 3.
I’m sorry, but I just don’t agree. There were some limited conflicts that could be related easily to the Cold War, but example after example usually has a deeper conflict that sparked the situation in the first place. And each of those examples you mention are too few and far between to be considered a World War. They were tied together because of the 2 superpowers backing one side or the other, but it only served to extend the conflict.
And there was direct confrontation too, not just via proxies. Submarines fought and died under the waves due to direct enemy action, we reached DEFCON 2 in another direct challenge, “advisers” and “mercenaries” on both sides that were but “weren’t” active duty military…
But do limited skirmishes amount to a World War? And being prepared for war/nuclear launch is still not active battle.
Desert Storm 1 may have had more shock and awe for television, but DS1 and DS2 still have not even begun to hit the casualty figures racked up during the Cold War… and at the current rate of loss it will take about 30 more years for it to get close.
I only mentioned DS1 because I feel it is still a more legitimate “war” than the Cold War (although, to steal from Bill Hicks, it wasn’t even a war because war involves TWO armies). The Cold War is a completely abstract interpretation of the period of power struggle between post-WW2 and late 80s/early 90s.
@Cmdr:
My personal opinion? Desert Storm was more a coups de grass of the Cold War then anything else. If it was REALLY about stopping a dictator from destabilizing the region, we would have invaded Iraq in 1991, instead of waiting a whole extra decade and then sending our boys back to finish the job.
As for the Cold War being over, I think that will happen when and if China becomes capitalist. That’s my opinion anyway.
In this very post, you say that we ended the Cold War with DS1, but then say that it is still alive with China.
And what could Iraq possibly have to do with the Cold War after the USSR collapsed? They weren’t even Communist! -
Chosin Reservour in Korea saw a major conflict between US and Chines troops. i would say that meets your criteria of a conflict between powers.
the war over all was world wide in scope, there were however no major German vs US conflicts. it was many theaters of one war over many years. -
Too much time in between?
It was multiple continuous conflicts spread over the entire 50 year time span and encompassed the globe.
Just because you did not have 10,000,000 men in uniform in the field does NOT preclude it from being a world war.
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indeed. the USSR wanted world communism, its their goal and the goal on the comintern(communist international).
they wouldnt let eastern europe govern itself after WWII. thats huge. that makes everyone wary. then they beef up the military of USSR backed n.korea to let it invade s.korea. it was a test to see if they can use surrogates to achieve their means. our response told them no.
they tried to influence takeovers in france, germany, spain, italy, latin america all by funding communist groups and communist parties. by gaining these countries, they would find new allies in a war against america.
see whats going on here. they would have slowly isolated us into nothing. choke of our foreign trade and resources and not have to fight to destroy us.
they tried again in vietnam. after the french got kicked out by the communist ho chi mihn, we went to protect the new nation of s.vietnam from the communist north, again backed by the USSR. after the n.vietnamese takeover, due to democrats in congress (after a s.vietnames repulsion of a 2 million man northern invasion (bigger than barborosa) without any american ground troops) abondoning the country with no aid. the communists spread into cambodia and laos. thialand and burma resorted to military dictatorships to stop communism. that happens alot.
but it was a war i would imagine. our spy agency’s were likewise surely at war with each other.
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If you think I said that, Jermo, then you did not read what I wrote correctly.
The United States used Desert Storm as the Coups de Grass for the Cold War. But the Cold War did not end just because the Soviet Union collapsed and we were A) naive and B) hosing the deck with premature testosterone.
Meanwhile, China was buying a president and buying intercontinental ballistic missile guidance systems from said president and getting the flood gates opened to purchase a large portion of our oil out of the Alaskan pipeline.
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@M36:
Well, most of you will think I’m crazy if I say this, but I enlisted in the United States Marine Corp instead of going to college which means I am crazy, so I’m gonna say it anyways.
WW3 was declared many centuries ago, but it was not until September 11th 2001 that the western world finally realized that war had been declared upon them. Once they did realize this, they cowered and tried to appease their opponents, that is, all but one nation. The United States, led by president George Bush chose to fight back and launched offensives in Afghanistan and Iraq. Both offensives achieved minimal success however, because the leaders of the United States are unaware that there is only one way to achieve victory. The terrorist peoples that oppose the United States, however, have a clear idea of how to overcome the Behemoth, but they lack the means to do it, because they are continually thwarted by the men serving in the United States armed forces. Therefore, WW3 is currently at a stalemate. The United States does not know how to win, and Islam lacks the means to win. Eventually, however, I forsee a victory for Islam, because the warriors that keep them at bay today will not live forever, and the spineless fools that you and your spouses are producing will not be able to protect you from such a determined enemy.
So in other words, you folks are all kind of screwed when all of us warriors are six feet under. :lol:
I hate to entertain this off topic nonscence, but first of all I assume by this you figure to go home and raise up a couple “spineless fools” yourself? M, don’t let the corp push what little remains of your natural reasoning ability out of your head. It’s ok to use your own brain to create your own thoughts every once in awhile even if you have to do it by light of a flashlight under a blanket.
Both of my oldest children have told me a number of times that they can’t wait to join the army when they get old enough, fortunately I have 10 years or so to get some sense into thier heads, slim chance though I supose my father is a vietnam vet, my grand father is a Korean vet, my great grand father is a WWI vet and his father fought against the Spanish.
So, M, if you don’t know what your talking about, don’t.
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Chosin Reservour in Korea saw a major conflict between US and Chines troops. i would say that meets your criteria of a conflict between powers.
the war over all was world wide in scope, there were however no major German vs US conflicts. it was many theaters of one war over many years.Again, I repeat that the Korean War was in fact a war. But it wasn’t part of the Cold War, and it wasn’t WW3.
I don’t understand your second statement.@ncscswitch:
Too much time in between?
It was multiple continuous conflicts spread over the entire 50 year time span and encompassed the globe.
Just because you did not have 10,000,000 men in uniform in the field does NOT preclude it from being a world war.
Yes, too isolated and separated by time.
Look, it’s easy to lump them all together, but they weren’t connected except that the US felt they needed to get involved in each one. So perhaps you are arguing that WW3 was perpetrated by the US?
It’s quite a stretch to link all those together in a global conflict. Individually, it didn’t matter whether they were won or lost (and primarily we “lost” each one), and, ultimately, we came out on top even though we couldn’t police the world.
indeed. the USSR wanted world communism, its their goal and the goal on the comintern(communist international).
they wouldnt let eastern europe govern itself after WWII. thats huge. that makes everyone wary. then they beef up the military of USSR backed n.korea to let it invade s.korea. it was a test to see if they can use surrogates to achieve their means. our response told them no.
Well, the US wanted the world as well, and the entire world after WW2 was not allowed to govern itself - the Koreas, SE Asia, Middle East, Africa, etc., etc. This was not entirely the Commies’ fault. And, the USSR actually didn’t back N. Korea invading S. Korea, even when asked. Their involvement didn’t occur until the US crossed the agreed-upon demarcation line (38th parallel). So really, we were the aggressors and China and USSR responded (and even warned us they would do so).
they tried to influence takeovers in france, germany, spain, italy, latin america all by funding communist groups and communist parties. by gaining these countries, they would find new allies in a war against america.
see whats going on here. they would have slowly isolated us into nothing. choke of our foreign trade and resources and not have to fight to destroy us.
The problem is the US held this view, just as you do, and it was incorrect. So we jumped into conflicts that we couldn’t win and were pointless to begin with. Just because countries were becoming communist does not mean that they were just an extension of the USSR. They didn’t want to be under the heel of either superpower. I’d like to also see where you read about these supposed coups that all primarily failed or were redundant anyway. And it’s not like the US didn’t stage coups of its own.
they tried again in vietnam. after the french got kicked out by the communist ho chi mihn, we went to protect the new nation of s.vietnam from the communist north, again backed by the USSR. after the n.vietnamese takeover, due to democrats in congress (after a s.vietnames repulsion of a 2 million man northern invasion (bigger than barborosa) without any american ground troops) abondoning the country with no aid. the communists spread into cambodia and laos. thialand and burma resorted to military dictatorships to stop communism. that happens alot.
Again, you misconstrue the situation. The Soviets had really no significant involvement in the Vietnam War. The Vietnamese wanted a unified country, but didn’t agree on which method of rule. The core conflict again was unification of Vietnam without another country ruling over it. The US was afraid that if Vietnam went Communist, all of SE Asia would. So we extended a conflict that was destined to lose anyway, for completely misguided (and wrong) reasons.
Besides that, Vietnam attacked communist Cambodia and repulsed a (communist) China invasion after we left. So much for that communism spread.
@Cmdr:
If you think I said that, Jermo, then you did not read what I wrote correctly.
The United States used Desert Storm as the Coups de Grass for the Cold War. But the Cold War did not end just because the Soviet Union collapsed and we were A) naive and B) hosing the deck with premature testosterone.
Meanwhile, China was buying a president and buying intercontinental ballistic missile guidance systems from said president and getting the flood gates opened to purchase a large portion of our oil out of the Alaskan pipeline.
Ok, I guess the key here is you don’t understand the term coup de grace. So look it up.
And again I reiterate that you and many here claimed multiple times that the Cold War ended with a Reagan victory. But I don’t really care enough to push that.BTW, you just sound like a conspiracy theorist. Care to say something about 9/11?
I hate to entertain this off topic nonscence, but first of all I assume by this you figure to go home and raise up a couple “spineless fools” yourself? M, don’t let the corp push what little remains of your natural reasoning ability out of your head. It’s ok to use your own brain to create your own thoughts every once in awhile even if you have to do it by light of a flashlight under a blanket.
Both of my oldest children have told me a number of times that they can’t wait to join the army when they get old enough, fortunately I have 10 years or so to get some sense into thier heads, slim chance though I supose my father is a vietnam vet, my grand father is a Korean vet, my great grand father is a WWI vet and his father fought against the Spanish.
So, M, if you don’t know what your talking about, don’t.
I hope I didn’t misunderstand you…but I think you’d be doing your kids the right thing. Father first, fighter second.
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ok the cold war was between the Western powers and the Eastern powers. N Korea moved to attack S Korea with it’s USSR and Chines allies. the US steped in to prevent the invasion. ok so we have a war there. the thing is the US got in to oppose the USSR agressions. even though they were not USSR troops but there allies. it’s like saying that when the Allies landed in Italy we still wern’t fighting WWII (as the US) because we wern’t fighting Germans there. if you make a move on the allie of a nation that is supported by it’s allie then you are in fact fighting that nation. we may have never shot Russians (although it’s debated that there were Russian pilots in the area that we did fight) but we did shoot there allies. i think that constatutes that we would have been fighting the USSR the same as attacking Italy was attacking Germany.
no one wanted the big knock out fight with Russia/USA so there was a lot of behind the sceens political stuff to make it not apear to be a war between the two so that nether would take the big gamble of lossing to the other. it was all a bunch of streached out fights to give the illusion of small non related wars. -
ok the cold war was between the Western powers and the Eastern powers. N Korea moved to attack S Korea with it’s USSR and Chines allies. the US steped in to prevent the invasion. ok so we have a war there. the thing is the US got in to oppose the USSR agressions. even though they were not USSR troops but there allies. it’s like saying that when the Allies landed in Italy we still wern’t fighting WWII (as the US) because we wern’t fighting Germans there. if you make a move on the allie of a nation that is supported by it’s allie then you are in fact fighting that nation. we may have never shot Russians (although it’s debated that there were Russian pilots in the area that we did fight) but we did shoot there allies. i think that constatutes that we would have been fighting the USSR the same as attacking Italy was attacking Germany.
First off, N. Korea invaded S. Korea on its own to unify the peninsula. Each side was administrated by USSR & the US because every single occupied territory was divided up after WW2. The USSR & China did not act until the US crossed the DMZ after repeated warnings. You can read about this. It’s not a mystery.
It’s clear that the Koreans wanted to be unified. It’s clear that there was division under which system of rule it should be done on. It’s clear that the Koreans didn’t want the USSR or US to determine their future. Either way, it was a power struggle primarily between the Koreans that was reinforced by our Cold War. Our insistence that there was some Commie ploy going on only served to extend the conflict. I’m not saying that the UN was wrong in trying to protect S. Korea. But the problem of separation is still there, and the USSR has long been dead.I don’t know what you are saying exactly with the Italy thing. For one, Germany occupied Italy when they secretly surrendered. We were primarily fighting Germans. Second, Italy was in the Axis pact. It was clear that they were against us. Third, N. Korea was administrated by the USSR - they weren’t allies. The Koreans wanted everyone out. Same in Vietnam.
no one wanted the big knock out fight with Russia/USA so there was a lot of behind the sceens political stuff to make it not apear to be a war between the two so that nether would take the big gamble of lossing to the other. it was all a bunch of streached out fights to give the illusion of small non related wars.
Of course, you are talking about the Cold War. But it wasn’t WW3. Each one of those fights you talk about were only exacerbated by the Cold War powers. They would have occurred anyway, with or without that involvement.
It’s not that I disagree entirely, though. I do think that in the case of Korea, much of the buildup was the power struggle between the USSR & US. But much of that was natural consequence to the resolution of WW2. Spoils of war and all that.
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but the behind the sceens power in the fights were US/USSR. this means they were conflicts but with pupets to fight for them. it was not a war like WWI or WWII, it was a new kind of war that isn’t fully understood yet due to nukes and such heavy forighn propaganda the likes that has never been sceen before.
we have taken a leap in war fair that is not like any in the past. spies are something thats been around for a long time, but not like this in controlling smaller governments to fight for them (that isn’t new) and pull tricks to make it look like they didn’t do it and at the same time have power to make the other nation save face to not accuse them out right and go to direct war with them due to nukes. -
but the behind the sceens power in the fights were US/USSR. this means they were conflicts but with pupets to fight for them. it was not a war like WWI or WWII, it was a new kind of war that isn’t fully understood yet due to nukes and such heavy forighn propaganda the likes that has never been sceen before.
we have taken a leap in war fair that is not like any in the past. spies are something thats been around for a long time, but not like this in controlling smaller governments to fight for them (that isn’t new) and pull tricks to make it look like they didn’t do it and at the same time have power to make the other nation save face to not accuse them out right and go to direct war with them due to nukes.Ok. :roll:
Exactly what good would it do for the USSR or US to have the Koreas go at it? Or the Vietnams? And why would the US go in militarily when it could just get nations to do its bidding?The Koreas and Vietnam proved to be valueless to the Cold War Superpowers. Only the US thought it was worth going into to stymie the Communist expansion. Hindsight shows us we were stupid to believe that, and that we couldn’t stop it anyway.
And finally I get you to agree that the Cold War was not a World War. Thank you.
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they used n.korean tanks and arms. and russian pilots flew the migs in mig alley. and we shot them down, and them us. thats pretty warlike.
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no i didn’t i said it was a new kind of war, not that it wasn’t a world war.
the benifit of Korea and Vnam is they provide resources to the USSR. remember the USSR policy was to have weak states around it that acted as a buffer. they also provided resources and troops if in a war. the US wen’t in to prevent this (and the spread of communism of course). the US sent troops into places to boost numbers where needed.
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they used n.korean tanks and arms. and russian pilots flew the migs in mig alley. and we shot them down, and them us. thats pretty warlike.
Who used N. Korean tanks and arms?
Yes, the Russians & Chinese attacked the US, only after warning them of crossing the DMZ. In their eyes, it was defense against the encroaching US forces. The Soviet involvement didn’t really go past that, so I’d hardly call that a US-USSR war. The Chinese did, but that was because they warned the US that invading N. Korea was a threat to them, and they would act. So they did when we didn’t listen to them.
no i didn’t i said it was a new kind of war, not that it wasn’t a world war.
the benifit of Korea and Vnam is they provide resources to the USSR. remember the USSR policy was to have weak states around it that acted as a buffer. they also provided resources and troops if in a war. the US wen’t in to prevent this (and the spread of communism of course). the US sent troops into places to boost numbers where needed.
“It was not a war like WW1 or WW2” is what you said. Therefore, not a World War. But how was it a new kind of war? You had open conflict. That’s war. You had clear sides. But involvement of the USSR is exaggerated.
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i ment it as in there was no major pushes with victory of capture a city and you win type war. no side could afford to fight like that as the fear of nukes was there that could win the war for ether side in one simple move. it was war, it was on large war, it had many diffrent theaters that crossed over 4 of the 6 populated continouts, and the last two being N Amarica and Ociana. US was invalved so we now had 5 out of 6 invalved. thats more or the same as WWI.
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I hope I didn’t misunderstand you…but I think you’d be doing your kids the right thing. Father first, fighter second.
It’s a tough position to be in, I hope my children can serve the country in a less sacrificial way than I have and will, but whatever their choice I will be proud…
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