(In depth poll) IF the Iraq war ever succeeds…


  • @El:

    @:

    cystic cryp "],

    Removal of his Sons

    They could have been assassinated…

    Hello, cystic crypt Pat Robertson

    better that than invade a sovereign nation killing its populace and stealing its resources to keep Bush’s friends (and father) happy.

    Elections in Palastine

    this is new?

    Without Yasser and his Saddam Putin-like results…fairly.i have trouble ascribing this so-called improvement a result and appropriate impetus for war.

    Israel out of Gaza

    Israel pulled out of Gaza as a result of its allies invading Iraq? The US couldn’t have just said “please”? Well, i guess if they need the destruction of >1% of the civilian population of some other country to do the right thing, then i guess it was necessary . . .
    Are you saying the Freedom Coalition killed 250, 000 Civilian Iraqis before the conflict was declared substantiallly complete[not to be confused with the W “Mission Accomplished” TF recognition]?
    Where in tarnation did you get those #s or what did you mean? :oops: i goofed.
    the point was that i really appreciate that the US needed to invade and slaughter much of another country for Israel to pull out of Gaza.

    @Linkon:

    Think of it as surgery to remove a malignant cancerous tumor before trouble spreads.
    Scalpel blades are often sharper than swords.

    Et tu, Linkon Pat Robertson?
    ignore ignore


  • @Imperious:

    Thats another thing that is this “falks” problem ( i cant say liberal anymore because thats a label)

    Mods, i officially accuse this personal attack.
    I call you to discuss this and would like to remind you that appropriate punishments do exist.

  • '17 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Just wait one second… we agreed to not use terms like Liberal and conservative and instead use our actual “ficticious” names, so as not to label a group of posters as things like “hippies, liberals, neo-cons, nazis,berkely students,etc” Thats way we stay out of trouble… and i am playing by these rules…

    BTW how can you even take any offense to not only what i post… but to really anything at this site. Its all about the back and forth exchange of information. Its like John Majors at the house of commons refuting what some chap in scotland says about public transportation. I enjoy our combative exchanges… really its more like two siblings fighting in the back seat of moms car. You must admit that i dont really do this “personal attack thing” because after all the forum is not any battlefield of ideas, but a direct expression of EVERYBODYS ideas woven into the same stinky blanket.
    Take care Falk and dont take yourself too seriously in this place…


  • @Zooey72:

    We started the invasion for the same reason you have had American troops in your country for the last 60 years. It is a strategic location.

    When did it become so strategic? What changed between 1944 and 1940?

    Democracy did not take hold in Germany because of American “feel good” mentality. If that is all it took than it would have done happened after WW1.

    Hmmm … there was democracy in Germany after WWI, why do you think there was not ?

    The honest truth why the Germans gave up on National Socialism is because we utterly destroyed thier country.

    True, and you destroyed Germany because of National Socialism. Rather simple equation for a smart person to solve, if that person wants to avoid further utter destruction.

    if allowed… the Germans probably would have voted in some Nazis if they were allowed to vote for whom they wanted. Esp around places like Nuremberg.

    Some did. And others of the majority made the parties illegal.

    The US needs to have a presence in the middle east for the war on terrorism. Iraq is a very strategic location that we can respond to attacks from.

    Why is Iraq so much better suited than Quwait and Turkey?
    You have fallen for propaganda.

    Disagreement is fine, polar f’d up radicalism is not.

    Who watches the watchmen?
    The world agrees that the US are on a good way to f’d up radicalism.

    And you are wrong about the nazis “could not care less about the workers”. It was psychotic and sad, but the whole concept of National Socialism revolved around being German.

    I agree with the second sentence, But where does worker equate German?
    The workers were cattle to the Nazis, useful tools. Needed to be grunts. That’s why programs the Volkswagen or Kraft durch Freude (Power though joy) were created. None of them aimed at giveng the workers any more rights so. It was all “bread and games”. And that is not socialist at all.

    Ernst Rohm, was a homosexual thug pedophile.

    You have fallen for NAzi porpaganda. He was gay, but not pedophile.

    So much so, that on the night of the long knives when he was dragged out of his bed by the SS he thought it was some kind of coup going on. He refused to believe Hitler would do that to him. He died with “Hiel Hitler” on his lips in the middle of a salute.

    Hmmm … you do know that Röhm was imprisoned on the 29th June, and died in prison on the 1st July? I don’t know where you have your information from, but you should check that.

    The reason Hitler got rid of Rohm is because the Army would not cooperate with the Nazis while the SA existed.

    And it surely was the army who also wanted General von Schleicher, Georg Strasser and Gustav Knight of Kahr assassinated ?
    The SA-Army thing was one part of the reason. The removal of critics and inner-party threats was the more important reason.

    Germany was FAR from being bankrupt in 1939. Unemployment was almost non-existant in 1939.

    sigh … simple counterexample: The GDR was bankrupt. The GDR had zero unemployment.
    Everything the Nazis had done was financed on credit. And it was about time thtat the credits were due.

    I only mention that so as to not sound like an extremist when I say I read “mien kamph” for refrences to a few pappers.

    you have read it? And you still take it seriously??

    If “because we said so” does not work…. than how come you have never been allowed to read it?

    I explained that above, with the smart person and the equation. BTW, long live the internet ;).


  • @Zooey72:

    You should be glad that the war started in 39. It was planned for 43. … 4 more years of German tech playing into it too?

    See … the Italians had one of europes best and biggest armies in 1936. What did that help them 1940? That is the same 4 years, and the equipment was utterly obsolete.

    Now, imaging the germans building more and more Me109. They would have suffered the same fate.
    What you imply in your “look at the tech advancement” is that in peacetime you would have had the same flux of equipment. “Unfortunately” in peacetime, things are not being bombed and shot at, and say operational much longer. And to throw that away ???
    Do you see my point?

    There is saying in the world -i am not sure wether it is in the US as well- that the US needs to wage wars every five to ten years so that they can get rid of their old technology arms and field - test the next generation of weapons.

    That is what the Germans would have missed, so i stand by: Had the war started later, the german equipment would have been outdated.

  • '17 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Not a very astute reflection. Germany tested its weaponry in Spain along with the Italians and thats why it was “the cutting edge of 1936”. Only the soviets had gained some experience as they supplied some equipment. The European axis supplied both men and equipment. The allies had no program or doctrine of developing the science of warfare, except in cases as it pertained to commerce (jet power, radar).
    If Hitler decided to listen to Erich Raeder and others who advocated the war begin by 1943-44 during this time Germany would have undoubtedly gotten itself into a few “other causes” again for the purpose of sharpening the blade. Of course she could not invade other nations as that would have led to war, but to provide the 5th column support allowing these nations to rot from within would be the goal. Even in America you may remember madison square garden once accomodated the american “nazi” party convention. Their were many “seeds” of support in many nations for this cause. Anyway… the axis purpose was geared up for war, while the allies were in malaise and did little to nothing. The only other nation that would suspect a war breaking out was Stalin who was preparing to invade Germany by 1942 on her own merits.

    That is why the Germans even in 1939-45 totally outclassed the world in tank technology, Jet power, Rockets, even small arms (mp44) It took a while to catch up but they allways had a big lead to start. If they fully mobilized by 1943 with the full Speer wartime economy and underground factories, they would have been nearly unstopable.

    The only problem was japan… They really had to start something sooner rather than latter due to their far more limited industrial capabilities. If they didnt take indo - china and piss off FDR then the oil embargo would not have taken place when it did. This would have allowed a second window of time in order to finish the war in China. They didnt have the capabilities to conquer China completely, but at least conclude some treaty allowing an end to hostilities. China was a financial drain on Japans economy, nearly like a “mini-babarossa”.


  • @F_alk:

    @Zooey72:

    We started the invasion for the same reason you have had American troops in your country for the last 60 years. It is a strategic location.

    When did it become so strategic? What changed between 1944 and 1940?

    Democracy did not take hold in Germany because of American “feel good” mentality. If that is all it took than it would have done happened after WW1.

    Hmmm … there was democracy in Germany after WWI, why do you think there was not ?

    The honest truth why the Germans gave up on National Socialism is because we utterly destroyed thier country.

    True, and you destroyed Germany because of National Socialism. Rather simple equation for a smart person to solve, if that person wants to avoid further utter destruction.

    if allowed… the Germans probably would have voted in some Nazis if they were allowed to vote for whom they wanted. Esp around places like Nuremberg.

    Some did. And others of the majority made the parties illegal.

    The US needs to have a presence in the middle east for the war on terrorism. Iraq is a very strategic location that we can respond to attacks from.

    Why is Iraq so much better suited than Quwait and Turkey?
    You have fallen for propaganda.

    Disagreement is fine, polar f’d up radicalism is not.

    Who watches the watchmen?
    The world agrees that the US are on a good way to f’d up radicalism.

    And you are wrong about the nazis “could not care less about the workers”. It was psychotic and sad, but the whole concept of National Socialism revolved around being German.

    I agree with the second sentence, But where does worker equate German?
    The workers were cattle to the Nazis, useful tools. Needed to be grunts. That’s why programs the Volkswagen or Kraft durch Freude (Power though joy) were created. None of them aimed at giveng the workers any more rights so. It was all “bread and games”. And that is not socialist at all.

    Ernst Rohm, was a homosexual thug pedophile.

    You have fallen for NAzi porpaganda. He was gay, but not pedophile.

    So much so, that on the night of the long knives when he was dragged out of his bed by the SS he thought it was some kind of coup going on. He refused to believe Hitler would do that to him. He died with “Hiel Hitler” on his lips in the middle of a salute.

    Hmmm … you do know that Röhm was imprisoned on the 29th June, and died in prison on the 1st July? I don’t know where you have your information from, but you should check that.

    The reason Hitler got rid of Rohm is because the Army would not cooperate with the Nazis while the SA existed.

    And it surely was the army who also wanted General von Schleicher, Georg Strasser and Gustav Knight of Kahr assassinated ?
    The SA-Army thing was one part of the reason. The removal of critics and inner-party threats was the more important reason.

    Germany was FAR from being bankrupt in 1939. Unemployment was almost non-existant in 1939.

    sigh … simple counterexample: The GDR was bankrupt. The GDR had zero unemployment.
    Everything the Nazis had done was financed on credit. And it was about time thtat the credits were due.

    I only mention that so as to not sound like an extremist when I say I read “mien kamph” for refrences to a few pappers.

    you have read it? And you still take it seriously??

    If “because we said so” does not work…. than how come you have never been allowed to read it?

    I explained that above, with the smart person and the equation. BTW, long live the internet ;).

    In a hurry, but will respond to a few things and get to the rest later.

    Please don’t play games falk, this is not a flame thing. I just don’t want to cover things I know you are aware of.

    meaning…

    What happened that made Germany so strategic, the cold war. And you know that. It was also in our best intrest to have Germany rebuild its military to help with the Warsaw pact/Nato arms race

    You also know that democracy failed in Germany because of the stab in the back mentality of the German people.

    3rd point. Have we destroyed Iraq the way we did Germany? Think before you knee jerk reaction of “yes” because although you like the anti war propaganda, you also know that there is no comparison. There are pro SH demonstrations in Iraq. Would we have allowed that in Germany after WW2? We could solve the problem of insurgency with the utter destruction of Iraq… Not every German was a nazi, and not every Iraqi is a follower of SH. So lets fire bomb Baghdad the same way we did dresden. That is how Germany was converted. When the people were faced with utter hopelessness in thier cause.

    Grr, got to go. Looked up the Rohm thing, I stand corrected for the most part. Can’t remember where I read that… oh well. Mien kamph… if you are going to study Nazi Germany you should read the autobiography of the man who ran it all. Some of the refrences I used was to show what a dumb ass Stalin was for thinking he could trust Hitler when the book clearly states that he was going to attack.


  • @Zooey72:

    What happened that made Germany so strategic, the cold war. And you know that. It was also in our best intrest to have Germany rebuild its military to help with the Warsaw pact/Nato arms race

    You think that was the reason why the US entered the war? AFAIK only Churchill was “wise” enough to look into the future and see this upcoming conflict. The US gov’t did not, thus it can not be the reason for invasion. (Remember that is what we are talking about)

    You also know that democracy failed in Germany because of the stab in the back mentality of the German people.

    I know, but you know that your point of the last post was "If the US had wanted democracy after WWI, you would have ‘gone in’ ". My answer was: there was no need for you to go in. I don’t argue what you wrote in this post, but this here does not really relate to your earier post.

    3rd point. Have we destroyed Iraq the way we did Germany? Think before you knee jerk reaction of “yes” …

    Think and remember this should not be a flame war, before you warn me of a knee jerk reaction, especially when you are not long enough a member here on the board to know that i often enough disapproved of this comparison. Germany was bleeded out by the war, Iraq was not. The German population suffered from a year long war, Iraq did not (they suffered from a year long trade-ban, but that is not the same than having bombs fall on your regularly).

    Mien kamph… if you are going to study Nazi Germany you should read the autobiography of the man who ran it all. Some of the refrences I used was to show what a dumb a** Stalin was for thinking he could trust Hitler when the book clearly states that he was going to attack.

    Like the “dumb” jews who stayed?
    Anyway … the book was written in prison, before 1933. If you want to study the regime, then yes, it is interesting to compare what happened to what was proposed in the book. But, it is more important to study what really happened.

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