Sub Question


  • 2007 AAR League

    This has probably been covered before but I can’t find where it’s clarified.
    It is the usual Gbr Fleet in SZ5 doing the Transport ferry system from Gbr. Gbr has no Dest present.
    Ger on their turn builds a Sub placing it in SZ5.
    Can Gbr still ferry Inf from Gbr to Len in that Sea Zone?



  • You would technically be attacking the sea zone with a transport, in which case, it would lose. Escorting it is necessary.


  • 2007 AAR League

    Yeah but Brt has in SZ5 already 1 BB 4 Trns 1 AC 1 Ftr as well as 1 Russian Sub and 4 Usa Trns when he placed the Sub there.



  • Just treat it as a standard naval battle. Since he placed it there, I believe he is actually considered attacking, and thus everything shoots back in the sea zone. I could be wrong, though.



  • If Leningrad is not combat then no. From the LHTR.

    At the beginning of the combat move phase you may already have sea units in spaces containing enemy units that were there at the start of your turn.

    This situation will require you do one of the following:

    • Remain in the sea zone and conduct combat;
    • Leave the sea zone, load units if desired, and conduct combat elsewhere;
    • Leave the sea zone to load units and return to the same sea zone to conduct combat;
      *Or, simply leave the sea zone and conduct no combat other than sailing out of harms way.

    Once these sea units have moved and/or participated in combat they may not move or participate in the noncombat phase of the turn. You may not load units while in the original contested sea zone.



  • So all the British navy engages the sub if you wish to unload in Leningrad.


  • Official Answers

    As a44bigdog pointed out, the UK units begin their turn in a sea zone with an enemy sub, automatically placing them in a combat situation.  Their choices are to fight the sub or flee.  If Karelia is held by the Axis, the UK transport could move out of sea zone 5, pick up units in Great Britain, and move back into sea zone 5 during combat movement (assuming sea zone 4 is friendly).  At that point the UK fleet would attack the sub and conduct an amphibious assault against Karelia.

    However, if Karelia is in Allied hands, the situation is different.  Since the fleet, including the transport, must either move away during combat movement or fight the sub, the transport will have either made a combat move or conducted combat.  This would prohibit it from picking up units in Great Britain and moving them to Karelia during noncombat movement.

    Basically, the only way the transport can move units in this situation is during combat movement to make an amphibious assault, and then only if it can move to a friendly sea zone to pick those units up first or if the units were already on the transport at the beginning of the turn.



  • Because the UK TRN’s are IN combat at teh start of their turn, they must engage in combat movement (either by staying put to fight, or moving out of the contested sea zone)

    As such, UK can only load those TRNs to offload to COMBAT.  If Leningrad is in enemy hands, yes you can offload to there since it would be combat movement for your TRNs to leave SZ5, grab troops, move back to SZ5 and offload to Leningrad (assuming of course that the TRNs survive the battle against the Germany SUB).

    But if Leningrad is controlled by the Allies, then UK cannot COMBAT move out of SZ5, and then NCM into Leningrad.

    Only aircraft may make moves in both combat and non-combat movement.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Which one should keep in mind since you may find the day you can suicide a submarine and end a shuck shuck for a round some day in the future.  Can save a game or seal the fate of your enemy if done right. (And this works against the axis too, get that British submarine to SZ 60 and stop the Japanese for a round.)


  • 2007 AAR League

    Righto thanks everyone for the help


  • 2007 AAR League

    @Cmdr:

    (And this works against the axis too, get that British submarine to SZ 60 and stop the Japanese for a round.)

    can you please explain this



  • @Amon:

    @Cmdr:

    (And this works against the axis too, get that British submarine to SZ 60 and stop the Japanese for a round.)

    can you please explain this

    I suppose it would be something like

    • Aussie sub attacks sz45 and survives to UK2
    • Aussie sub attacks sz60 on uk2 and survives opening round of combat from trans and any defenders, if present., then submerges

    At that point, japan would not be able to unload those transports to any friendly territory on J2. They could, of course land on any hostile territory.

    Frankly this rule is one part of the LHTR that i think is very, very broken.  The thought that a single newly launched sub can scare the amassed allied navy from landing in controlled territory along the baltic is comical.  In my mind, the trannies should be allowed to unload in friendly territory even if the boat itself was involved in combat.  It’s not like the units are getting extra movement.  But what do I know.  🤷


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    I agree, Tim, but that’s the rule.

    So yes, if Japan is unwise and only stations transports in SZ 60, and England attacks with a submarine, lives and decides not to risk another attack instead submerging, all those transports are “locked.”  They cannot load from SZ 60 and they cannot off load into friendly territory.  They can only move in Combat Move, that means moving to another sea zone to load units and yet another to offload and that offload better be an amphibious attack.

    Good way to gum up Japan for a round.



  • And I believe this has been the rule ever since AAE, when building ships into enemy-controlled sea zones was first allowed.

    It does seem a bit odd, but it’s not like the rule is going to be abused: A sub has to somehow not get killed by air, find some transports that aren’t defended by anything and are shucking into friendly territory, and then not get killed by the transports.



  • Whats odd is that units loaded in combat move must be offloaded in the same combat move into enemy territories.

    That is what caused the strange situation in the OP.


  • 2007 AAR League

    @Cmdr:

    I agree, Tim, but that’s the rule.

    So yes, if Japan is unwise and only stations transports in SZ 60, and England attacks with a submarine, lives and decides not to risk another attack instead submerging, all those transports are “locked.”  They cannot load from SZ 60 and they cannot off load into friendly territory.  They can only move in Combat Move, that means moving to another sea zone to load units and yet another to offload and that offload better be an amphibious attack.

    Good way to gum up Japan for a round.

    thank you Tim 😉

    the rule may sim odd, but its good in some way, beacuse it leaves you to be more creative in your play, and shows the value of each unit, even the cheapest( in this case the sub-of the sea units)

    the same thing is when you attack massive fleet with one sub, so you can declare your ACs will pass through that seazone but you re infact sending figs to kamikaze mission someplace else, as Jen previously mentioned, thank you Jen  😉



  • A true master of all the permutations of naval combat can play havoc with traditional strategies…



  • Yeah imagine all the swearing when a novice player is shown all the loopholes for the first time, all in one game.  😄



  • Sorry, I should have covered this thread too:

    Fricking subs…


  • 2007 AAR League

    i have a question

    for example

    UK attacks Japan on sea

    with 1 des, 1 bat
    Japan defends with 1 sub

    UK forces miss on round 1 turn, Japanese sub also

    can UK forces retreat, or Japanese player can submerge his sub first=negate the possibilty of UK forces to retreat

    thanks


  • Official Answers

    In your example, the sub can’t submerge at all, since there is an enemy destroyer present.  However, let’s assume that the attacking force consists of a battleship and a sub.  In LHTR, the attacker’s choice to retreat is made before the defender’s choice is made to submerge.  In the box rules, the choices are made simultaneously.  In either case, the defending sub may not disallow the attacker’s retreat by submerging.


  • 2007 AAR League

    @Krieghund:

    In your example, the sub can’t submerge at all, since there is an enemy destroyer present.  However, let’s assume that the attacking force consists of a battleship and a sub.  In LHTR, the attacker’s choice to retreat is made before the defender’s choice is made to submerge.  In the box rules, the choices are made simultaneously.  In either case, the defending sub may not disallow the attacker’s retreat by submerging.

    thank you for correcting me

    and clearing things out

    i get it now 😉



  • @Krieghund:

    In LHTR, the attacker’s choice to retreat is made before the defender’s choice is made to submerge.  In the box rules, the choices are made simultaneously.

    how does THAT work?

    Do you each write down your attack/withdraw perogative on paper and show it at the same time… I mean, how ELSE could you do it simultaneously?



  • It’s not so much that the OOB rules specify that they are similtaneous, it’s just one of the vague rules in the OOB that doesn’t specifically dictate the order so you’re left to wrangle it out with your opponent.  LHTR specifies the order as Attacker, then defending subs.  I just found out a few minutes ago in the Unbaltic thread that CSub’s rules say the sub submerges before the attacker, so it all depends on who you’re playing.


  • 2007 AAR League

    i see your point Axis roll

    we should now who goes first

    the attacker with his retreat or the defender with its sumbergance

    or is it done simultaniously as you ve mentioned

    anybody which can clarify this ˝frickin subs˝ issue  :? :?:lol:


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