• Does the US get a 2D12 for the Japanese attacking the Dutch?

  • '18 '17 '16

    @manincellv The Americans get 2 D12 if the Japanese declare war on the Dutch.


  • @manincellv
    Yes, the Americans have a condition that says:
    "[2d12 if] Japan declares war on any other neutral [than China, the Commonwealth, or France.]
    A neutral is defined as
    “A major power is neutral if it is not at war with another major power (even if it is at war with a minor power) A minor power is neutral until it is aligned with a major power.”

    Thus the US will get that 2d12 if Japan attack the Dutch, the Siamese the USSR, Mongolia, etc. (Assuming none of those are already aligned or in the case of the USSR, at war with a major.) If Japan attacks China, the US gets 5, and if Japan attacks the UK or France, or a UK aligned Dutch the US gets 5d12. That is why it is so important for Germany to attack Britain after Japan attacks Holland, or Japan to attack the Dutch after going to war with the UK.

    Hope that helps.


  • @trig Assume Germany has already declared war on the Dutch. 5D12 for US? If so, then Japan needs to attack the Dutch before Germany does, right?


  • @manincellv
    If Germany already attacked the Dutch, nothing would happen, unless Germany was at war with the UK.
    Then Japan would have to DOW the UK to attack the Dutch (as the Dutch would now be British), and America would get 5d12. A similar thing would happen if Japan attack the Dutch, then Germany attacked them and the UK. If Japan wanted to attack again, it would give the Americans 5d12.
    Nothing big or unavoidable, just a good reason for Japan to go early, so Germany can attack the Dutch Home Country later.


  • @trig I want to make sure I understand this.

    Turn X
    Great Britain is already at war with Germany. Germany attacks the Dutch, They align.
    Japan on their turn attack Dutch East Indies. 5D12 USA?

    Turn X
    Japan attacks the Dutch. Dutch align to GB. 2D12 USA?
    Germany on their next turn attack the Dutch.


  • Turn X
    -Great Britain is already at war with Germany. Germany attacks the Dutch. Any surviving Dutch align with Britain.
    -On their turn, Japan attacks the Dutch East Indies, which is a declaration of war on the British. The USA gets 5D12 to their peacetime income.

    Turn X
    -Japan attacks the neutral Dutch. Any surviving Dutch align with Britain. The USA gets 2D12 to their peacetime income.
    -Britain has a turn and may reinforce the Netherlands with more troops.
    Turn X+1
    -Germany attacks the Netherlands (which are now British troops).


  • @hbg-gw-enthusiast said in USA peacetime increase:
    Edit:

    Turn X
    -Great Britain is already at war with Germany. Germany attacks the Dutch. Any surviving Dutch align with Britain.
    Correct
    -On their turn, Japan attacks the Dutch East Indies, which is a declaration of war on the British. The USA gets 5D12 to their peacetime income.
    Correct

    Another Scenario

    Turn Y
    -Japan attacks the neutral Dutch. Any surviving Dutch align with Britain. Only if Japan is at war with the Commonwealth. The USA gets 2D12 to their peacetime income.
    -Britain has a turn and may reinforce the Netherlands with more troops if they have alinged
    Turn Y+1
    -Germany attacks the Netherlands (which are now British troops if they have alinged).

    Overall, the theme is this. If Japan is at war with the Dutch and not a major power, then it is only 2d12 for the Americans.
    If Japan attacks the Dutch, and they (the Dutch) are aligned with a major power, then the US will get 5d12.
    The Dutch can align with the UK if they are both at war with Germany which is the really only bad spot. This would force Japan to attack the UK if they wanted to attack the Dutch.

    Some possibles:

    • Japan attacks the Dutch in '37. The Americans get 2d12.

    • Japan attacks the Dutch in Jan 39 and the Americans get 2d12, then the Germans attack the Dutch and the British in July 39. Since the Dutch and UK are now at war with the same major power, they align. This means that if Japan wishes to attack the Dutch again, they would have to attack the UK to do so, giving the US 5d12.

    • If Germany attacks the UK and Dutch in Jul 39, then the Dutch aling to the UK. Then, Japan goes to attack the Dutch in 1940. They US would get 5d12 for Japan attacking the UK alinged Dutch.

    It is the control and alignment thing. As long as the Dutch are controlled by the UK, then 2d12 for the US. If the Dutch are alinged, then it is 5d12.
    Basically, if you go before Germany, or get Germany to avoid the Netherlands, you are doing good. (If you define good as giving the US 2d12.) If Germany goes before you and attacks the UK as well, it is bad. Then the Durch would be at war with the same major power, and would align, effectively becoming British. In that case, Japan would have to attack the British to attack the Dutch.

    I hope that makes some sense, and I’m sorry for the rambling.


  • @trig Ramble on, my knowledgeable friend! Thanks for the correction!


  • @hbg-gw-enthusiast Is there a scenario out there, in which these statements can be true:

    1. Japan attacks the Dutch only for a 2D12 to USA.
    2. Germany attacks the Dutch, but does not declare war on UK, denying a US +5 Peacetime increase.

    Based on what I read above and stated in the reference sheet, Japan attacking the Dutch aligns them to UK, giving the UK a +2 peacetime increase.
    Then if Germany comes along on the next turn and attacks the Dutch, are they essentially going to war with the UK? Answer is no as Germany does NOT declare war. This action (+ 2D12) will probably get the UK to their wartime income though and the UK can on their turn declare war on Germany, thus denying the USA +5 peacetime increase.

    The goal of this is to deny USA a +5D12 and the +5 increase from a declaration of war by Germany on the Commonwealth and forcing UK to declare war on Germany, all in the effort to take all the Dutch territories in Europe and Asia.

    Thanks for everyone’s input on this as I’m sure this will help an Axis player(s) understand what consequences attacking the Dutch are.


  • @manincellv If I understand your question, you want both one and two to happen.

    Let’s say it’s 1938 and everyone’s neutral. No Declarations of War have occurred.

    Path A - Germany declares war on The Netherlands before Japan does. Now, The Netherlands East Indies becomes controlled by Great Britain as long as Germany isn’t at war with another Major Power. This increases Great Britain’s peacetime income by 2D12, which is an average of 13. Their starting income is 11 and their wartime income is 25. Perhaps you get to 24. Risky, but possible.

    Then, Japan declares war on the NEI. This increases USA peacetime income by 2D12, just as you were hoping. Great Britain’s peacetime income increases by +2, possibly allowing them to declare war on Japan.

    Path B - Japan declares war on The Netherlands before Germany does. As long as Japan isn’t at war with another Major Power, The Netherlands cannot align with anyone. Instead, The Netherlands becomes controlled by Great Britain (and GB’s peacetime income increases by +2, btw). USA peacetime income increases by 2D12, just as you were hoping. On Great Britain’s turn, they could lend-lease to The Netherlands and this would occur before Germany gets to take its turn. They would also get to roll a D12 and on a “1” they would recruit either an infantry or 2 militia in The Netherlands.

    Now, it’s Germany’s turn. They declare war on The Netherlands. This increases Great Britain’s peacetime income by 2D12, which is an average of 13. Their starting income is 11 and the Japanese DoW on the NEI has increased that to 13. Great Britain’s wartime income is 25. The most likely outcome statistically is that Great Britain will hit 25 with their roll of 2D12 and be able to DoW Germany, but there is a chance of your dream outcome going down this path.

    But I’d wait to make sure folks like Trig, Noneshallpass, or GeneralHandGrendade concur, because I’m still learning.


  • @hbg-gw-enthusiast If the Dutch Align with the British upon a declaration of war by Germany and subsequent capitulation, does:

    1, Does the UK now control all Dutch ships and forces in
    A. English Channel and
    B. Dutch East Indies and can now move them?

    1. Are all these units replaced with British units?

    2. Does the UK collect income from the DEI?

    3. Do the Dutch make an recruitment roll?

    4. How does this rule 4.12 Minor Power Colonies affect above?

    Keep in mind Japan has not attacked the Dutch at this point and Germany has taken the Netherlands.


  • @manincellv If the Dutch Align with the British upon a German DoW and subsequent capitulation, then it must mean that Germany is at war with the British. If the Germans were not at war with the British, then the Dutch wouldn’t Align. They would be controlled. I just want to make sure we are on the the same page as far as that goes.

    As long as we are talking about the Dutch having Aligned with the British and The Netherlands has fallen, then any surviving Dutch units (naval, air, land, whatever) are replaced by British units. The Dutch cease to exist as a separate nation for purposes of the game. The British collect the income from the DEI and Suriname (10 IPP). The Dutch do NOT make a recruitment roll because that is for controlled minors, not Aligned minors (Page 21, Table 4-2, If a Major Power controls a minor power).

    Rule 4.12 is about minors which are controlled. Let’s explore that. Let’s say the Germans are neutral to everyone and then declare war on the Dutch. As I wrote two posts above, “Now, The Netherlands East Indies becomes controlled by Great Britain as long as Germany isn’t at war with another Major Power. This increases Great Britain’s peacetime income by 2D12, which is an average of 13. Their starting income is 11 and their wartime income is 25. Perhaps you get to 24. Risky, but possible.” So it’s possible that the British control the DEI. The moment Great Britain is a war with the Germans, the DEI will change from controlled to Aligned, but until that time, the Dutch units remain Dutch. They are controlled by the British, but still Dutch. The British do NOT collect income form the DEI. You can make recruitment rolls at “9” once a turn while the DEI, Lesser Antilles, and Suriname are controlled.


  • @hbg-gw-enthusiast Excellent answer.

    The only addition I will make is that when controlled, the UK move move and fight with the dutch units, but may not do anything that would put them at war with another power (ie attack Russia or something) They could, if Germany got really lucky, sail the Dutch navy all the way to the Pacific, to go fight Japan. Or, once Germany attacked them, fight Germany. They just would never fight with the UK, because the UK would not be at war. I hope that makes sense. If not ignore it.

    Also, if Japan attacked the Dutch, it is likely that there are 3 territories left for the recruitment roll. See this sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CCjrtM8TWCyXmzDOslPz2MsG_OTv-UQNe6mL65glRww/edit#gid=0


  • @trig said in USA peacetime increase:

    @hbg-gw-enthusiast Excellent answer.

    Also, if Japan attacked the Dutch, it is likely that there are 3 territories left for the recruitment roll. See this sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CCjrtM8TWCyXmzDOslPz2MsG_OTv-UQNe6mL65glRww/edit#gid=0

    I’m glad you nudged me about this! I had forgotten, so appreciate the reminder about Suriname and Lesser Antilles!


  • Okay, I have been keeping quiet about the Dutch questions because I have been playing with the Netherlands Fight Back Expansion for a while and had not gone back to the basic rules for some time.

    I think that the relevant rules to consider are:

    Great-Britain NRS (v3.5) :
    Dutch Colonies : If Axis or Comintern declares war on the Netherlands, Netherlands becomes Controlled by or Aligned to Great Britain at the end of the Combat Phase. Once Aligned, it may distribute this income as it sees fit to itself, FEC or ANZAC.

    Peactime Income Increases
    Germany or Italy declares war on any neutral nation in Europe : +2D12 (each time)
    Japan declares war on neutral (including China) : +2 (each time)

    ANZAC NRS (v3.2)
    Axis or Comintern declares war on The Netherlands East Indies : +3 (once)

    FEC NRS (v3.4)
    Japan declares war on any nation : +2 (each time)

    US NRS (v3.4)
    Japan declares war on British Commonwealth or France : +5D12
    Japan declares war on any other neutral : +2D12 (once)
    Germany declares war on British Commonwealth or France : +5 (once)

    France NRS (v3.5)
    Germany or Italy declares war on any other nation : +2D12
    Germany or Italy declares war on British Commonwealth : France moves to wartime Income
    Japan declares war on neutral nation or China : +1 (each time)

    Rule 4.4 :
    Once Aligned a Minor Power and its units become part of the Major Power for all purposes and ceases to exist as a separate nation for the rest of the game.

    The obvious danger to avoid for the Axis is that a Japanese attack on an Aligned Dutch West Indies (i.e. for all purposes Britain), will trigger the +5D12 for the USA. So Min. 5, Max. 60, AVG. 32.5) and you are also declaring War on the Commonwealth.

    However, if Japan attacks a neutral Dutch instead, the effect is far less imposing (+2 GB, +3 AZ, +2 FEC, +2D12 USA, +1 France). Min. 10, Max. 32, AVG. 21.

    On the other hand, if Germany attacks an Aligned Netherlands (i.e. Britain), the Commonwealth and France can go to War, but the USA only gets +5.

    If Germany attacks a neutral Netherlands, the effect is GB +2D12, France +2D12 and no effect on the USA.

    Save for the 5 US increase, the German invasion will likely mean war with France and GB in both scenarios.

    If the Axis want to coordinate an attack on the Dutch, I think that it’s much better for Japan to go first and Germany second than the other way around. You are trying to delay the US coming to war, which is the game changer in Global War.

    And to answer the @manincellv questions :

    If the Dutch Align with the British upon a declaration of war by Germany and subsequent capitulation, does:

    1. Does the UK now control all Dutch ships and forces in
      A. English Channel and
      B. Dutch East Indies and can now move them?
      Yes to both (Rule 4.4)

    2. Are all these units replaced with British units?
      Yes (Rule 4.4. and Appendix B(2))

    3. Does the UK collect income from the DEI?
      Yes, if it is in control of the territory (Rule 11.6)

    4. Do the Dutch make an recruitment roll?
      No, only Controlled minors do this (Rule 11.5 and Table 4-2) unless otherwise stated in the rules

    5. How does this rule 4.12 Minor Power Colonies affect above?
      In your example it doesn’t since the DEI are already Aligned to Great Britain


  • @noneshallpass Your write-up is the definitive reference for Axis players deciding how to approach a Declaration of War on the Dutch!

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