Can you scramble to fight off an amphibious assault against a PRO Neutral?


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Example.

    Germany Invades Eire from Sz109.

    Can units in London Scramble to prevent this invasion?

    My gut says NO.  They are “Friendly Neutrals” not Allies.


  • Official Q&A

    Your gut is right.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Hmm Kreighund - I like the ruling BUT… lets think about this though.

    Imagine that was a RUSSIAN, or AMERICAN territory?

    Because I have made a D.O.W. the British can now defend against this attack can they not?  As if say, an American and British navy were sharing the same zone and I attacked them?

    Interesting food for thought… let me know what you think.



  • Hmm, so in Alpha rules, you can’t scramble against any combat move in a sea zone adjacent to an airbase?


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Still no clear definitive response then?



  • @Gargantua:

    Still no clear definitive response then?

    I believe friendly planes can scramble to any seazone adjacent to a airbase.  I don’t believe it’s explicitly stated, but it seems to be implied that regardless of who owns the territory being amphibiously assaulted, it’s the seazone combat that the scramble relates to, so any plane located at an airbase next to that seazone can be scrambled to defend that seazone.  It’s already the case that multiple allied planes can defend a seazone.  It has never been written such that it’s a requirement, say if you’re amphibiously assaulting a UK territory, that one UK plane needs to scramble to allow other US or Russian planes to scramble.  Any airbase allows for friendly defense of the seazone.

    And alpha 2 rules were rewritten so the airbase did not need to be located in the amphibiously assaulted space, just adjacent to the same seazone where the amphibious assault was taking place.  So by hypothetical syllogism:

    any friendly plane can defend a seazone adjacent to an airbase
    airbases allow defense for amphibious assaults in the same seazone the airbase touches ->

    any friendly plane can defend an amphibious assault in the same seazone the airbase touches.

    The only thing that would throw this is if ownership of the amphib territory meant only airbases controlled by the same power could be used to scramble, but that seems needlessly complex and goes against the fairly established game mechanic of coordinated defense.


  • Official Q&A

    “Friendly” is the issue here.  “Friendly neutral” is not the same as “friendly”.  If there are Allied ships in sea zone 109, the UK planes may definitely scramble, as units friendly to UK are being attacked.  However, if there are no ships, only a friendly neutral, not friendly, territory is being attacked.

    The key is the timing of the change of status from friendly neutral to friendly.  Per the rules, this change happens after a failed attack.  However, those rules were written when scrambling could only be done from islands.  We need to re-examine this situation to see if it warrants a rules change in Alpha to move the timing of the status change to when the attack is declared.  I’m conferring with Larry on it now.



  • @Krieghund:

    “Friendly” is the issue here.  “Friendly neutral” is not the same as “friendly”.  If there are Allied ships in sea zone 109, the UK planes may definitely scramble, as units friendly to UK are being attacked.  However, if there are no ships, only a friendly neutral, not friendly, territory is being attacked.

    The key is the timing of the change of status from friendly neutral to friendly.  Per the rules, this change happens after a failed attack.  However, those rules were written when scrambling could only be done from islands.  We need to re-examine this situation to see if it warrants a rules change in Alpha to move the timing of the status change to when the attack is declared.  I’m conferring with Larry on it now.

    I don’t speak for Garg, but I think he was on board with a neutrals, friendly or not, being exempt from scramble interceptions.  I think his response was if (and my response related to):

    A russian territory is being amphibiously assaulted.
    There are no Allied ships in the seazone where the assault is taking place.

    Can UK planes in an airbase (UK territory or even US territory) adjacent to the seazone where the amphibious assault is taking place scramble to defend the seazone, even when UK units would not otherwise be engaged and the attack is not on UK territory.


  • Official Q&A

    I assumed that his second example was for purposes of contrast with the first, rather than a separate question.  If the assaulted territory belonged to another Allied power, UK could scramble whether or not there were UK units in the sea zone, as the declaration of war would have established the power as friendly to UK.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    So there is a DEFINITE seperation between invading a Friendly Neutral, and a friendly/allied territory.

    Interesting.

    Eire might yet matter in the game then… for some Sea-Lion Variations.



  • To sum up what everyone is saying with some context. Territories like Eire and Yugoslavia are friendly neutrals to the Allies. America and Russia are also friendly neutrals to the Allies when they are not at war yet, so before turn four and they have not had a DOW made on them. If the U.K has Finland and has an Airbase there, then the Germans decide to amphibious assault Novgorod, could fighters in Finland scramble to defend. Would this Amphib.assault instantly bring Russia into the Allies and allow scrambling or would the scramble affect occur after Russias turn of the round that war was declared. The answer to this can be applied to Pro Ally neutrals and Pro Axis neutrals only that they arent players. So to bring them into the Allies side they would have had to  been attacked first or have been made an Ally by a power Non combat moving into them. Am I following this correctly. The discrepancy here is  the change over of a friendly neutral to an Ally. This would be made when you declare war at the start of the Combat move. Do you allow an Ally to help straight away or after the attacked powers turn?
    I hope this hasnt confused the situation, just thought I would recap everything step by step.
    Am I correct?



  • @TheDefinitiveS:

    To sum up what everyone is saying with some context. Territories like Eire and Yugoslavia are friendly neutrals to the Allies. America and Russia are also friendly neutrals to the Allies when they are not at war yet, so before turn four and they have not had a DOW made on them. If the U.K has Finland and has an Airbase there, then the Germans decide to amphibious assault Novgorod, could fighters in Finland scramble to defend. Would this Amphib.assault instantly bring Russia into the Allies and allow scrambling or would the scramble affect occur after Russias turn of the round that war was declared. The answer to this can be applied to Pro Ally neutrals and Pro Axis neutrals only that they arent players. So to bring them into the Allies side they would have had to  been attacked first or have been made an Ally by a power Non combat moving into them. Am I following this correctly. The discrepancy here is  the change over of a friendly neutral to an Ally. This would be made when you declare war at the start of the Combat move. Do you allow an Ally to help straight away or after the attacked powers turn?
    I hope this hasnt confused the situation, just thought I would recap everything step by step.
    Am I correct?

    A) if the US controls finland (or has fighters there), it’s no longer neutral.  It MUST be at war to be in Finland, no other way around it.
    B) if any axis power declares war on Russia on the Europe side of the map, Russia is no longer neutral (it’s at war with someone, so it’s a friendly power to the Allies).
    C) Declaring War occurs at the beginning of the move phase, and scrambling occurs at the end (at which point Russia is at war with at least one Axis power).

    So in your example, as Russia is not neutral, and the US is not neutral, US planes in Finland can scramble to the seazone against an attack on Russia.

    Neutral non player powers are different, in that they never automatically flip to a side, they just change to “friendly neutrals”.  And even “friendly neutrals” require a non combat move into them to take control, even after they’re forces have been activated by a failed enemy attack.  And a friendly neutral is not the same as a player power not yet at war - they have completely different diplomatic rules.  For example, if Russia is not at war on the Europe map, Britain CANNOT noncombat move through their spaces.  It is NOT the same as a friendly neutral, for lack of a better term it’s a Neutral Power, completely different than a Friendly Neutral or a Strict Neutral.


  • Official Q&A

    @Gargantua:

    So there is a DEFINITE seperation between invading a Friendly Neutral, and a friendly/allied territory.

    That is what we’re currently trying to determine.

    @kcdzim:

    A) if the US controls finland (or has fighters there), it’s no longer neutral.  It MUST be at war to be in Finland, no other way around it.
    B) if any axis power declares war on Russia on the Europe side of the map, Russia is no longer neutral (it’s at war with someone, so it’s a friendly power to the Allies).
    C) Declaring War occurs at the beginning of the move phase, and scrambling occurs at the end (at which point Russia is at war with at least one Axis power).

    So in your example, as Russia is not neutral, and the US is not neutral, US planes in Finland can scramble to the seazone against an attack on Russia.

    Correct, except that TheDefinitiveS said “UK”, not “US”, but that is a minor point.  Either way, the scrambling power is at war.

    @kcdzim:

    Neutral non player powers are different, in that they never automatically flip to a side, they just change to “friendly neutrals”.

    Not exactly true.  When attacked, they join the opposite side from the attacker.

    @kcdzim:

    And even “friendly neutrals” require a non combat move into them to take control, even after they’re forces have been activated by a failed enemy attack.

    After being attacked, they are no longer neutral, but friendly to the opposite side from their attacker.  However, the territory and forces are uncontrolled, as you say.  The question at hand is the timing of this status change.

    @kcdzim:

    And a friendly neutral is not the same as a player power not yet at war - they have completely different diplomatic rules.  For example, if Russia is not at war on the Europe map, Britain CANNOT noncombat move through their spaces.  It is NOT the same as a friendly neutral, for lack of a better term it’s a Neutral Power, completely different than a Friendly Neutral or a Strict Neutral.

    Correct.


Log in to reply
 

Suggested Topics

I Will Never Grow Up Games
Axis & Allies Boardgaming Custom Painted Miniatures
Dean's Army Guys

38
Online

14.6k
Users

35.2k
Topics

1.4m
Posts