• 2007 AAR League

    hey switch, jenn is correct uk cannot buy a navy unless u.s.a reinforces uk. or the brits buy land units.  we both got smacked by the operation sea lion in back to back games.


  • It depends on Germany’s AF movements in G1 whether it is a risk or not.  If they put massive force forward (in range of UK), then yes, you reduce the size of the UK naval build to JUST the AC, and do that out of range in SZ2.  Then you use the remaining 14 IPC for land units.

    But if several FIGs are out of range, with an AC/TRN/2 INF build on UK1, you SHOULD be safe from Sea Lion…
    Germany has 4 FIGs max in range (1 dead in Ukraine R1, 1 sitting in Libya after G1 that can;t reach UK).
    Germany has 1 TRN, so 1 INF/1 ARM is the most that can land in UK

    With FOUR FIGs in range, you probably want to skip the TRN and go land units, then build your TRNs the following turn.

    UK will land 4 units in Algeria, 1 of those from ECan, so 1 land unit left in UK, plus the 2 INF from the build.  The remaining unit would be an ARM for me, sending 2 INF, 1 ART, 1 ARM to Algeria
    US sends a FIG and BOM to UK
    And with the UK1 build being in SZ2, no need to transfer the RAF FIGs to the AC yet.

    So UK has:
    2 INF, 1 ARM, 3 FIG, 2 BOM, 1 AA

    So if only 3 Germany FIGs are in range…

    The Battle:
    1 INF, 1 ARM, 3 FIG, 1 BOM vs. 2 INF, 1 ARM, 3 FIG, 2 BOM, AA

    Less than 10% Axis win.

    The other option of course is for the UK to STACK their fleet in SZ6 on UK1, and invite the Germans to hit it… :-D

    The point is, there are several ways to “deal with” the AC build.  But if you DON’T build the AC as Germany, you lose the Baltic Fleet on UK1, period.


  • The moving west of the Med Fleet does not assist in a G2 strike on UK under the above scenario…

    The Med Fleet can;t get passed the BB, DST, 3 TRN, 1 SUB that will be in SZ12 to make the landing during combat movement on G2.

  • 2007 AAR League

    i agree i will either buy 1 ac+ 1 dd and put fleet in sz 6. or just buy land units and move  all allies to algeria, sz 12.  never never let the german fleet to link up. we should be on each others list for a game switch, but your like me 1 game at a time with the actual board. the only way to play it.


  • You wre not yet on my list, but you are now :-D

  • 2007 AAR League

    If you are building your UK AC out of range of GER air, why not build UK trns instead, and save your AC build for round 2 when you can plop it down wherever you want to consolidate your allied fleet?


  • Because SZ2 is not 100% safe.  It can still be hit by 2 FIG, 1 BOM (with the AC sailing to SZ3 for FIG recovery)

  • 2007 AAR League

    That doesn’t seem like a serious threat to me…

    UK consolidates their 2 trn and 1 BB in SZ 2.  Add 1 Russian sub and 2 more UK trn built in round 1.  If I can get GER to attack my combined 1BB 4trn 1sub with 1bmb 2fig I will probably hold with BB and 2 trn.  Now if this suicide attacke also forces GER to move at least their AC if not their entire Baltic fleet to sz3 (and thus avoid a fleet consolidation G2 in sz7), then I would gladly make that trade I think and pick off their weaker fleets at my leisure (remember they are now down 3 air).  Plus now I am seriously threatening his holdings in NOR and WEU with 4 trn for a turn 2 landing…

    If he doesn’t attack sz2 and still consolidates in sz7 turn 2, I can either further build up my consolidated fleet, moving it to sz8 and dropping an AC there turn 2 (no further behind), or if I want to attack his consolidated fleet, I’d still rather have 2 trn on attack than 1 AC.

    Of course, this comes from a pure classic player (haven’t yet played revised).  What have I missed?


  • I was assuming a UK landing in Algeria.  If their fleet is still in SZ2, then there is NO Sea Lion risk due to the number of units in UK

  • 2007 AAR League

    NCSCSwitch,

    I now see where you are going with this for the algeria landing UK2.  Are you suggesting though that you could both land in algeria in UK2 and still protect against sea lion G3?

    @newpaintbrush:

    If the German Med fleet moved west, then UK should probably build transports and consolidate with US fleet southwest of London for threatened attack on Norway or Algeria UK2 followed by US fleet reinforcement if to Algeria.

    @ncscswitch:

    If they put massive force forward (in range of UK), then yes, you reduce the size of the UK naval build to JUST the AC, and do that out of range in SZ2.

    @ncscswitch:

    And with the UK1 build being in SZ2, no need to transfer the RAF FIGs to the AC yet.

    However, since we are agreed we don’t have to land fighters on the AC until round 2, I still think a superior build would be UK1 = 2trn plus ground, and USA1 = AC (plus whatever else).  Then round 2 you can either go to algeria (with USA AC support) or consolidate in SZ 6/7 (again with USA AC support).  This way you avoid purchasing capital ships with the cash strapped UK and put that money into ground troops instead…

    Thoughts?


  • It is a UK1 landing in Algeria with 1 ARM, 2 INF, 1 ART, the ARM from ECan.

    US follows up with the same forces from Eastern landing there in US1.

    That leaves a fleet of 3 TRN, 1 DST, 1 BB in SZ12, perhaps the Russian SUB moves there in R2 as well, depending on German AF positions.

    Germany has to go Sea Lion on G2 if they are going to attempt it, because the next thing is a UK Fleet Link in SZ6 in UK2, and the fall of Norway.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Nah, move the SZ 2 fleet to SZ 1, move an infantry from W. Can to E. Can, buy 3 fighters.

    Sink German Navy along with German planes on UK 2
    Invade Norway with 2 Inf, 2 Arm (Buying 2 Inf, 1 Arm to replace losses + whatever.)

    As I said, the odds you find a german player who doesn’t stack W. Europe with fighters is extremely small.  So you’re going to have to worry about at least 1 transport, 1 infantry, 1 armor, 4 fighters and a bomber on average.

  • 2007 AAR League

    @ncscswitch:

    It is a UK1 landing in Algeria with 1 ARM, 2 INF, 1 ART, the ARM from ECan.

    Ahhh, UK1 landing…

    So still not sure why you want to build that AC turn one with UK?  If you are planning on consolidating in SZ6 on turn 2, why not just build the AC turn 2 placing it directly in sz6?  I’d rather have 2 trn on turn one than 1 ac, and I haven’t heard a good argument yet for building the trns over the AC (in fact, I’ve already argued in earlier posts this thread that the trns are better for a number of reasons).

    Rob


  • Personal Preference… the AC allows more flexibility to me :-)

  • 2007 AAR League

    @Jennifer:

    Sink German Navy along with German planes on UK 2.  Invade Norway with 2 Inf, 2 Arm (Buying 2 Inf, 1 Arm to replace losses + whatever.)

    Jennifer,

    How are you going to a) sink the consolidated sz7 GER navy and b) invade Norway, in round 2?  The sz7 battle is a close one as is, and without those transports as fodder, I think you are risking leaving the GER with a navy yet…

    In two rounds of combat, UK will probably score 7 hits without transports as fodder (maybe 8), GER will score 8 hits / borderline 9 hits.  UK will be left with maybe one unit (BB or BMB), GER will be left with 4 units (BB, loaded AC), or maybe only 3.

    Now the UK has wasted their entire starting navy (except 2 trns - guaranteed dead come G2) and their entire first round buy, and GER still has boats in the water and basically the entire AF still intact.

    Rob

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Clay:

    No one said a unified German fleet was a threat.  Most people that I’ve seen play move the BB/Trn to Egypt.

    If you put the BB/Trn in SZ 13 I sink them with the 2 fighters, bomber on England, laugh histerically and invade Algeria early.

    And you can always stop a unification with a Russian sub in SZ 6 and the British/American fleet in SZ 12.

    Or we can get totally ridiculous and assume Germany not only lost her BB and TRN off the coast of Gibraltar but Japan lost a fighter in FIC and Germany lost fighters in Ukraine and E. Europe.  Since these are all possible outcomes that can happen before Germany can even use her silly Baltic fleet.

    That’s why I say, if you arn’t going after England very hard in the first 3 rounds with germany, don’t build a fleet.  Use what you got and let it do as much damage as possible before being sunk.  Meanwhile, those 4 artillery that the AC cost you and the 2 lost fighters you no longer have because they died WITH your AC to the British Air Froce are much more useful in a fast destruction of Russia.


  • Those 4 ART are not worth that much when, without SOME type of reinforcement of the Baltic Fleet, the UK is landing with imunity in Eastern while being a direct threat to Berlin on UK2.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I don’t see England being a threat to anything but a some tea and crumpets on England two, with or without a strong fleet in the Baltic.

    Remember, this is UK2, Germany’s GOING to have more then 6 land units in W. Europe, Germany and E. Europe.  So England MIGHT land in Karelia or Norway, but that’s about it.  Meanwhile, they are now out of position and prime pickings for the Luftwaffe who will eat them for breakfast.  And you ahve to assume it’ll take 3 transports to shoot down 1 fighter, so that’s 10 IPC in exchange for 24 IPC.  Germany can play that game all day long, especially after she sinks your second battleship because it’s away from England invading Poland (E. Europe)


  • The UK fleet is:
    1 BB (so first hit fom Luftwaffe means nothing)
    1 AC
    2 FIG
    3 TRN

    That lands 6 units per turn, with a BB shot, and air cover of 2 FIGs and a BOM if desired

    Even if somehow, miraculously, the ENTIRE Luftwaffe is till alive on G3, AND in position to strike the UK fleet AND is not needed for other combat…
    The odds of the UK winning the battle is 56%  If just ONE German FIG is lost (oh say… UKRAINE on R1), the odds of the luftwaffe killing the UK fleet drop to 14.7%

    Meanwhile, I will STILL have dropped 6 divisions in Europe by that time (since if you did nto build an AC, my fleet stayed put and did not go to Africa), and that force drop was 2 ARM, 1 ART, 3 INF, backed up by BB shot and AF.
    And run THOSE forces through a SIM… that kills 10 INF divisions 75% of the time.

    You REALLY do not want the UK to be able to land freely via the Baltic on UK2.  You won;t ahve any forces to send TOWARD Moscow, you will be stacking Berlin instead.

    Meanwhile… USA just dumped into Africa, set up a NAD strat, and you ahve a similar invasion risk in Southern now also, and a 1-2 punch risk for Western.

    It just is NOT pretty to let the German Fleet die without at least being able to do some SERIOUS damage.  And it is better to keep it alive a while…

  • 2007 AAR League

    @Jennifer:

    If you put the BB/Trn in SZ 13 I sink them with the 2 fighters, bomber on England, laugh histerically and invade Algeria early

    Good point.  But I wouldn’t move my med fleet to sz13 without amphibiously taking Gibraltar.  Now the RAF doesn’t have a leg to stand on.  I’ll invite your UK1 landing in Algeria now.

    @ncscswitch:

    It just is NOT pretty to let the German Fleet die without at least being able to do some SERIOUS damage. And it is better to keep it alive a while…

    This intuitively makes sense to me.  Even if UK doesn’t see it as a serious threat for Sea Lion, it should still slow them down a turn or 2, and if GER can take down UK fleet while preserving GER AF, then 16 IPC sounds like it’s an investment well worth it.  Otherwise you’ll have much more than 16IPC of gear landed in Europe much earlier than you want…

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