Hamar: No bunkers in Axis and Allies Classic. Most normal build for Germany in Classic is 9 Infantry, 1 Armor.
Here’s the scenario:
Russia 1: 3 Armor in E. Europe. 2 Fighters, 16 Infantry in Karelia
Germany 1: 4 Infantry, 5 Armor in E. Europe; 3 Infantry, 3 Armor in Karelia
England 1: Plays with boats. Might land in Norway if they don’t attempt a suicide run to liberate Karelia.
Japan 1: Sinks American Fleet, Invades Russia or recovers from Russian invasion.
America 1: Builds
Russia 2: Builds 8 Infantry in Moscow. No forces to use, sits tight.
Germany 2: Builds 3 Infantry in Karelia, moves 4 infantry, 5 armor, 4 fighters to karelia
England 2: Reinforce Norway, or suicide again on Karelia
Japan 2: Move deeper into Russia, maybe ignoring the Chinas to deplete Russia faster
America 2: Landings on England or Africa
Russia 3: Build more infantry
Germany 3: Take Moscow
England 3: Take Karelia
Japan 3: Attack China from 3 fronts (West, South and East)
America 3: Run up the white flag as they see Japanese naval forces becomming indominable.
You’re BEST bet with Russia in a 7 infantry bid to Ukraine is to pull back to Russia and build the Russian Wall in Yakut to slow the Japanese. With that you can hold out til round 4.
Hamar WAS talking about Classic. And his analysis, builds and all, were quite accurate. Much more so than your overview which selectively ignores units or strategies that aren’t convenient to the point you are trying to make.
my odds calulator shows that germany has about an 11% chance of holding karelia if they only took with 3inf, 3arm (and captured an aa gun) when the uk attacks with 3ftr, 1bmb, 2inf, 1arm, 1bb. so as long as uk takes it back with 1arm (sacrificing air to do so if necessary, which, i admit, could be costly), then usa can land a bomber there and russia can build 9inf there, move in the 2inf from russia that originally came from eve, and the 1arm from nov (and maybe move in the infantry from cau if he’s still alive and not doing anything important).
that leaves 11-12inf, 2arm, 1bmb, aa to defend against a best case scenario of 4inf, 5arm in eeu (if russia doesn’t get any defensive hits) and whatever air germany has left (probably 2ftr, 1bmb at the most). unless germany bought 6arm in g1 then uk will always be able to effectively counterattack karelia (5-6inf, 1arm, 1-2bb, + whatever air they have left). if germany did buy all armour then uk and usa should be able to move as many as 10inf, 2arm, 2ftr, 1bmb to weu by usa2. then, when germany does take russia on round three, BAM! the allies storm berlin and raid up to 60ipcs.
What does your odds calculater say your chances are of whipping me?? Mine says about 5%
Hamar WAS talking about Classic. And his analysis, builds and all, were quite accurate. Much more so than your overview which selectively ignores units or strategies that aren’t convenient to the point you are trying to make.
He couldnt have because he said to build a bunker.
ROFL
purchase: depends on how russia did. maybe 10-11 inf and bunker, or maybe 6arm and go out in a blaze of glory. 4inf, 4arm is a good purchase for moderation
He also said to build a “Go out in blaze of glory” by that standard. I don’t recall any “Go out in blaze of glory” units in any version of Axis and Allies. He clearly must be playing a different game than the rest of us!
If that purchase described above does not sound to you like pure A&A classic, then I would like your opinion as to what game you THINK he’s playing, based on those purchases. They fit perfectly fine with A&A classic to me.
Jennifer you’ve got to do better than being overly literalistic if you want to make your point. I’ve never seen Hamar play on these forums but from what he’s posting, he sounds like he’s very familiar with A&A Classic play, more so than you at any rate.
edit - furthermore, I just noted that Hamar has posted exclusively on the A&A Classic forums, never on the forums for any of the other editions. So it looks like the majority if not all of his experience is with Classic, anyway.
Maddog, I don’t play nomore games online. They are just too time consuming… time wich I don’t have… so I have to decline your offer.
Avin:
Here is exactly what he said:
turn: germany 1
purchase: depends on how russia did. maybe 10-11 inf and bunker, or maybe 6arm and go out in a blaze of glory. 4inf, 4arm is a good purchase for moderation
combat: ?? if russia has won all three of its attacks i welcome the german assault on karelia. an attack of 13inf, 3arm, 4ftr, 1bmb (everything) wins about 75% of the time, but doesn’t take with enough land units to defend against the uk’s counter attack of 2inf, 1arm, 3ftr, 1bmb, 1bb. germany can sacrifice planes to take with more ground units, but that’ll get them in trouble quickly.
(Page 2)
10-11 Infantry on G1. That’s 30-33 IPC plus a Bunker. Germany doesnt even have that kind of cash in Classic, let alone bunkers which don’t exist in Classic. It’s obvious he’s talking about either home rules or a different version of the game.
You know, I really get tired of people going out of their way to twist reality to make me look stupid. It never works. You can always go back to the original quote and put the lie to them. Common.
Not to mention, people KNOW what a bunker is and people know what the term “GO OUT IN A BLAZE OF GLORY” means…not to mention one is a noun and the other contains a verb. Last I checked, you couldn’t purchase verbs in any version of Axis and Allies.
So yea. If you want to start inventing rules and comming up with resources you wouldn’t actually have, then yea, I could see how your (plural) arguements could be valid. I mean heck, if I could get 2 tanks for 5 IPCs and put twice as many units on an IC then the rules allowed, I could kick anyone’s butt too. /sarcasm off.
:-D
jen - yes i’m playing classic, and yes i meant bunker as a verb, as in “to bunker down”. and if the axis bid 22 then germany can easily have 10inf on ukr and 33ipc for an 11inf purchase on germany 1.
maddog - the calculator says my odds of whipping you any time soon are 0%. but only because i’m too damn busy to play.
:-)
As you can see, Hamar’s purchase is perfectly fine for A&A classic. I did quote his exact line in my previous post - you were the one taking the word “bunker” out of the context he posted it in and taking it to mean a noun when it was clear he was using it as a verb, as the parallel to “go out in a blaze of glory” indicates. All of this, what, to make it seem like he didn’t know what he was talking about? As I said, it’s pretty clear that if your argumentation rests on such weak leaps of logic rather than refuting his strategy that you are the one without much to stand on.
Everone take a deep breath. :-)
:-D
jen - yes i’m playing classic, and yes i meant bunker as a verb, as in “to bunker down”. and if the axis bid 22 then germany can easily have 10inf on ukr and 33ipc for an 11inf purchase on germany 1.
maddog - the calculator says my odds of whipping you any time soon are 0%. but only because i’m too damn busy to play.
:-)
Okay, you have to bear with me because there are flavors of the game that include rules for units like bunkers, Atlantic Walls, pill boxes, etc. So it IS reasonable that you could have gotten it mixed up.
Also, I didn’t see you include a bid of 22 IPC. In fact, if anyone were to play me they would NEVER get away with a bid over 20 IPC. (I like a fighter, tank, infantry bid.)
I agree, DM, it does telegraph and there’s some luck in the dice in Karelia, but given a decent shake, you’re facing over whelming odds in Karelia. (Remember, Russia has NO units to use on R2 if they attack EE and mass Karelia since Germany just kills them all off without loosing a single tank.)
That isn’t really true. Â Russia can have 2 inf and 1 arm (eve, sfe).
Russia can strafe EE, and have 16 inf, 3 arm 2 ftrs in Kar.
Or
they can attack with 3 inf, 2 arm, 1 ftr and have 16 inf, 1 arm, 2 ftrs in Kar.
(in both you take out the Ger trn in the baltic)
So Germany is looking at
13 inf, 6 arm + planes vs. 16 inf, 3 arm, 2 ftrs
or
13 inf, 3 arm + planes vs. 16 inf, 1 arm 2 ftrs
In both cases you need 4 planes to survive the AA fire to even have a remote chance of taking.
And 4 in the first scenerio gets you about 6 survivors but you probably needed to bring in possibly 5 planes, which means UK may still have its Canada trn.
Even if they can’t, UK can counter with minimum 2 inf, 3 ftrs, 1 bom, 1 bb-shot. Â
You looking at UK clearing any time Ger only take with 5 units or less and possible take/clear with 6 units left.
This also doesn’t even count the options of withdrawing from Kar or trying to stack Cauc. Â In this case a 3 inf, 3 arm buy on R1 (LL) might prevent a German move to Kar. Â It would certainly require the Japanese ftrs for extra defense. Â Just throwing out more options.
Anyway, I think it is a bad gamble to make, esp if you are getting a 21 bid. Â I’d perfer to go PAfr and give my self a shot at not only Russia, but letting Japan build up, or even a shot at M84.
Yea, well, the basic arguement was that 7 extra infantry in Ukraine was a very bad idea to give to Germany. And in round 2 with Avin I’m proving that if you DON’T hit Karelia on G1 you loose. I already showed that Germany has a distinct advantage if htey DO hit Karelia on R1.
BTW, it’s assumed that your SFE and Yak units hit Manchuria to kill a fighter and you hit E. Europe to kill another Fighter with Russia.
So yea, Russia maybe has 2 infantry in moscow to use. (the blitz blocker being destroyed by a battleship and 2 infantry from s. europe in caucasus.)
But if you don’t do Manchuria you could have 2 infantry and a tank. Not sure how that helps you, but you could have it.
DM can’t you play Maddog in classic? He has improved a lot since the last time you played him, might be a fun game to watch because you are prolly the best classic player on this board ;) It is always nice to see how you play your games :D Lets spot you a 22 bid as the axis and give puppy the allies.
I was thinking of maybe spotting him a 24 :wink:
Jennifer, what is the point of “proving” that you are going to lose? I already know you are going to lose! It doesn’t prove anything to assert that if you do X you are going to lose, and then do X yourself. You’re not proving anything.
If you wanted to prove something, then prove that if you DO attack Karelia, you win. You have yet to show this given that in our last game, I was ahead before losing two fighters. As I said even then, if you had wanted to continue but adjust that single battle, I would be perfectly happy to do so. If you’d like to give up the current game and go back to that game and let me reroll UK2, I’d rather do that. Or if you’d like to do a new game with LowLuck so that neither of us has cause to complain, let’s do that.
DM can’t you play Maddog in classic? He has improved a lot since the last time you played him, might be a fun game to watch because you are prolly the best classic player on this board ;) It is always nice to see how you play your games :D Lets spot you a 22 bid as the axis and give puppy the allies.
Actually, IIRC MD gave me a pretty good run last time we played.
I’ve gotta clear a couple Revised games off my schedule first though, before I get back into classic. I’ve got three going at the moment and they are in the fairly early stages.
I was thinking of maybe spotting him a 24
I might hold you to that. :-D
Jennifer, what is the point of “proving” that you are going to lose? I already know you are going to lose! It doesn’t prove anything to assert that if you do X you are going to lose, and then do X yourself. You’re not proving anything.
If you wanted to prove something, then prove that if you DO attack Karelia, you win. You have yet to show this given that in our last game, I was ahead before losing two fighters. As I said even then, if you had wanted to continue but adjust that single battle, I would be perfectly happy to do so. If you’d like to give up the current game and go back to that game and let me reroll UK2, I’d rather do that. Or if you’d like to do a new game with LowLuck so that neither of us has cause to complain, let’s do that.
But you were not ahead. You were reduced to equal status from superior status and then you lost 2 fighters putting you squarely behind. But even with those fighters, you were still well on your way to a loss.
So now I’m showing that if you do not immediately take advantage of the weakened Allied position you will definately loose. :)
Im stıll goıng to say though that a bıd of 7 to 8 unıts ın Ukraıne or Europe ıs not the best because so much more can be done wıth 4 ın Ukraıne and 4 ın Lıbya or 5 ın ukraıne and 3 ın Lıbya. Wıth eıther of these the Russıans cannot really afford to attack Ukraıne or at least take ıt meanıng Germany should be able to use all fıghters and have enough fırepower to achıeve all objectıves on turn 1. Also because Ukraıne ıs so buılt up the Russıans wıll have to brıng everythıng ıngnorıng the baltıc fleet whıch ıs another advantage to Germany. Even wıth a strafe Russıa should lose. Further should Russıa brıng everythıng ınto the Ukraıne they are lıkely to have to pull off leavıng a tank or two and ıf they go after the baltıc as well as the Ukraıne they wıll lıkely lose more troops than they kıll. And thıs doesnt even begın to account for the extremely hıgh lıkelyhood of very bad dıce ıe Germany gettıng 5-6 defense hıts on round 1. Yes there ıs a lıkelyhood of that hıttıng the Germans but ıt ıs less than that facıng Russıa. Also unlıke a euro only bıd you dont have all your eggs ın one basket 4ınfantry ın Lıbya ıs very capable of gettıng the job done as are 3ınfantry. In the end the only real choıce for the Russıans ıs to make no attacks on R1 but for the baltıc and maybe a strafe on fınland to soften ıt up for turn 2.
