• '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @ncscswitch:

    Adopting my crazy idea of the Western IC and massed Kreigsmarine off France?  :mrgreen:

    Yea.  It’s worked splendidly three times now. :)  Russia was completely crippled before the Allies got strong enough to sink the fleet, and even when they did, they had a full round of chasing me before they did sink it.

    Meanwhile, German and Japanese Armies were massed to take Moscow.

    In one game it hasn’t worked out well.

    England took Borneo and New Guinea on R1 and sunk a majority of Japanese shipping with no loss at all.  It took 4 rounds just to recover and in that case, your entire lead with Germany’s shot.  It only takes 4 rounds for the Allies to mass a big enough fleet and Airforce with one nation to sink your fleet.  (Assuming you only divert 8 IPC a round to the zone buying submarines/transports.)


  • I haven’t tried the WE IC yet but the next game I play with my friends I will.  I think it holds a lot of promise and it seems Jennifer has had some success.


  • Just be sure to give credit for the concept to the proppe source  :evil:

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    According to some I never give anyone credit, why would I start with you, dear? :)

    Seriously, yes, I learned of the idea from you first.  I personally felt it was the stupidest idea I’d ever heard and moved to test it out in realistic tests to justify the slam I was going to give it….much to my surprise I found Russia capitualiating 75% of the time to over whelming Japanese and German pressure with the Allied Fleet cowering in Sea Zone 8 until round 4 or 5.  (Depending on if I retreated to SZ 5 or not, and whether or not I pulled my fighters off the carrier(s).  I did have 2 carriers once…that was very interesting!)


  • It was a hairbrained idea (like the Candian Shield), and like Shield, it had the potential to work if never seen before :-)

    But I know too many ways to counter my own hair brained idea for me to put much more than “novelty” as a characterization of it.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    So do I!

    The best counter I can think of, even though it has YET to be used against me is the creation of British fighters.

    England should try for a hat trick.

    UK 1:  Buy 3 Fighters. (This is enough to sink the Baltic Fleet, but not a unified fleet, though, it might be possible to do with 2 transports and a battleship added in, havn’t run the number or tried it yet though.)

    Attack Borneo with 2 infantry
    Attack New Guinea with 2 infantry

    (Decent shot at getting both, net gain 5 IPC for at least 2 rounds, vs Egypt which will cost you everything on the German counter attack.)
    Sub/Fighter to Jap Sub (Fighter lands on US carrier)

    AC/DD to Jap Tran.

    This forces Japan to either sink the British fleet or the American fleet at much higher losses or ignore Asia for the most part as all naval vessles and fighters are engaged sinking boats that were never intended to survive in the first place.

    Second round, the Germans unit.  Possibly adding an extra submarine to the joined fleet.  If they add much more they’ll strip needed assets from teh Russian front defeating the purpose of the fleet delaying the allies.

    UK buys more fighters.  If it appears they can sink the fleet with combined assets, they do.  If not, then they don’t and move their fleet to safety. (Probably SZ 4 since they can shuffle troops to Karelia/Arch then.)

    How can Germany counter?  Buy another carrier.  Buy a destroyer instead of a Submarine (since Submarines add very little to fleet defense against aircraft.)  They can easily defend if they want too.  The problem is the Russians are not going to sit there and wait for Germany to become the only dominant force in the Atlantic before pressing hom their new advantage.

    You have a better idea?


  • Standard Sea Lion block works nicely…

    Also US/UK blockage of Gibraltar with a joint T1 landing in Algeria prevents fleet unification.

    US SBR campaign build also works quite nicely to kill the increased fleet.

    And of course Russia can just fire a spear at Berlin… West Russia Stack, lurch forward, lurch forward, lurch forward.  Germany can’t afford to defend AND keep that fleet alive.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Yea, that’s similar to the lines I was thinking.

    If you block the unification, if only for one round, you are capable of taking your 5 fighters, 1 bomber to the northern section of the fleet and destroying it completely.  Thus negating any potential rewards for fleet unification.


  • @ncscswitch:

    Standard Sea Lion block works nicely…

    Also US/UK blockage of Gibraltar with a joint T1 landing in Algeria prevents fleet unification.Â

    US SBR campaign build also works quite nicely to kill the increased fleet.

    And of course Russia can just fire a spear at Berlin… West Russia Stack, lurch forward, lurch forward, lurch forward.  Germany can’t afford to defend AND keep that fleet alive.

    Germany starts with 25 Inf 10 Armor 4 art and 6 fighters
    USSR starts with 24 Inf (4 of which are 4 spaces away from the front) 4 armor 2 art 2 fighters

    Even assuming 8 INF a turn, that equals the USSR build. Germany still has 16 IPC A TURN to use for a fleet (assuming the fleet will prevent allied landings).

    Germany has “equal” infantry, but has more fighters. Presumably it has additional africa income, and USSR has a bit less from Japan’s takings.

    How is it that a German fleet cannot survive if you invest in it?

    The allies need transports. 8 IPC, no attack, 1 defense. If they buy subs, the Germans are happy, because subs do not aid the allies in taking land.

    Germany doesnt need land. Subs are 8 IPC too, but attack/defend at at 2/2.

    From this perspective. 1 sub = combat value of 2 transports. So 16 IPC spent would = 32 spent by the allies.

    Squirecam


  • First off, Russia is ABOVE 24 IPC for several turns in most games (West Russia taken and held, Ukraine traded, sometimes Belo also).  And they are slow to lose IPC in the east (1 a turn max, if played correctly)

    Germany may have a mass of forces, but they ahve a lot to defend, and on 2 fronts.

    If the US and UK staged to SZ12, Germany is risking Norway, Western and Southen for amphib (Algeria already lost, Libya and any otehr Africa gains also at risk).

    Of Germany’s starting forces, they lose 6 INF, 2 ART, 2 ARM and a FIG before they ever get to use them (standard West Russia/Ukraine R1).
    If on G1 they do a Western IC AND an AC in the Baltic (to prevent loss of the Baltic Fleet to Allied air before they can even sail to Western), that leaves them $9 for land units.

    Against that, Russia is sending the WR stack.

    And if Germany turns to face it, the US and UK strike… Western, Navy, or Southern.

    And that is BAD for Germany


  • @ncscswitch:

    First off, Russia is ABOVE 24 IPC for several turns in most games (West Russia taken and held, Ukraine traded, sometimes Belo also).  And they are slow to lose IPC in the east (1 a turn max, if played correctly)

    Germany may have a mass of forces, but they ahve a lot to defend, and on 2 fronts.

    If the US and UK staged to SZ12, Germany is risking Norway, Western and Southen for amphib (Algeria already lost, Libya and any otehr Africa gains also at risk).

    Of Germany’s starting forces, they lose 6 INF, 2 ART, 2 ARM and a FIG before they ever get to use them (standard West Russia/Ukraine R1).
    If on G1 they do a Western IC AND an AC in the Baltic (to prevent loss of the Baltic Fleet to Allied air before they can even sail to Western), that leaves them $9 for land units.

    Against that, Russia is sending the WR stack.

    And if Germany turns to face it, the US and UK strike… Western, Navy, or Southern.

    And that is BAD for Germany

    1 - Forget the Western Europe IC. Not part of this discussion.
    2 - Germany will NOT always lose 6 INF 2 ART 2 ARM. What about the bid??? What if a 1-2 INF bid is placed in Ukraine?
    3 - If you count Germany’s losses, you have to count Russia’s too.
    4 - Germany is not going to allow the USA/UK fleet to live.

    I thought a few weeks ago we cleared this point up. Germany can merge if it wants to. Which is going to prevent a strike into SE or WE.

    Lets begin with this though. Germany has 2 inf bid.

    Hypo 1 - 2 inf bid Ukraine
    Hypo 2 - 1 inf UKR, 1 Inf Lybia.

    What does your USSR do?

    Squirecam


  • On Hypo2 I am stillhitting Ukraine.

    On Hypo 1, I am probably STILL going to go for it, and have a 90% chance to take it, 97% to kill everything there.

    As for teh link… staging to SZ12 as both UK and US will block the link.  It may be expensive, but it blocks the link.

    And in my post above, it was as a direct counter to the AC and IC G1 build, which allows Russia to go “medieval” on Germany for several turns.  :mrgreen:


  • @ncscswitch:

    On Hypo2 I am stillhitting Ukraine.

    On Hypo 1, I am probably STILL going to go for it, and have a 90% chance to take it, 97% to kill everything there.

    As for teh link… staging to SZ12 as both UK and US will block the link.  It may be expensive, but it blocks the link.

    And in my post above, it was as a direct counter to the AC and IC G1 build, which allows Russia to go “medieval” on Germany for several turns.   :mrgreen:

    Battle sim says only 70% for allies.

    21 vs 19 is not a very big edge.

    Squirecam


  • @Jennifer:

    Attack Borneo with 2 infantry
    Attack New Guinea with 2 infantry

    You are daring! Sounds like a great move if it works out, but this has the potential to backfire in a big way. You are 1:3 in each NOT to take the islands(2 inf vs 1), clearing the islands has little to no purpose - the objective is to capture. If you fail on both you have effectively lost Australia, NZ, Africa, India and the UK pacific fleet. All on UK1…

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    You put 1 infantry into Ukraine and Russia still ends up with 2 armor left over.  So I fail to see the need of the extra infantry, really.  If you want to put a bid in Ukraine, put 3 infantry in there and destroy Russia’s chance of taking it.

    And yea, the premise is that we’re looking at an AC/IC buy on G1 with one sub a round (or equivalent) into SZ 6/7 to bolster it.


  • @Jennifer:

    You put 1 infantry into Ukraine and Russia still ends up with 2 armor left over.  So I fail to see the need of the extra infantry, really.  If you want to put a bid in Ukraine, put 3 infantry in there and destroy Russia’s chance of taking it.

    That requires a 9 bid. I’m going off a 6 bid. The dice sims I saw said 70% Allies.

    2 infantry makes Ukraine a 21 vs 19 fight. With Dice, this is no simple battle. Approximately 1/3 of the time, Germany will “win” this outright or by forcing a russian retreat.

    Will people risk a Round ONE attack when 1/3 of the time they will lose?? Perhaps so, but IMHO its not a good idea.

    Also, again JHMO, you are better off buying AC + 3 Trans or+2 trans+sub rather than AC+IC.

    Squirecam

  • Moderator

    But Russia can just strafe Ukr, if the first rd of battle goes bad.

    I did this against Jen.  She placed 2 inf Bid to Ukr, I attacked with 3 inf, 1 rt, 3 arm, 2 ftrs (I think - basically I sent in all that could reach).

    My intention was, to see how the first rd of battle went, if I roll avg or up I continue, if I roll down I retreat my arm and ftrs.

    In that case I rolled up and ended up taking Ukr wiping out her bid.

    Even if you get Avg dice, you can still choose to retreat to save your tanks.

    Are there better alternatives, maybe.  But I think the old strafe attack is underused by many players and can be quite an effective tool in that case.


  • A good strafe can decimate a defense that took TURNS to build up, and leave you powerless to respond.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    But the purpose of a 2 Infantry bid in Ukraine is to give your fighter half a chance to survive.  6 IPC for 2 Infantry to save a 10 IPC fighter that exponentially increases your first round combat abilities.

    Though, I’m begining to think I don’t like the Axis with anything less then 13 IPC.  2 Infantry in Libya, 2 in Ukraine, 1 IPC to Japan.  (I just don’t like leaving her out.)


  • @ncscswitch:

    It was a hairbrained idea (like the Candian Shield), and like Shield, it had the potential to work if never seen before :-)

    But I know too many ways to counter my own hair brained idea for me to put much more than “novelty” as a characterization of it.

    1.  “Harebrained”, not “hairbrained”.

    2.  Canadian Shield isn’t harebrained.  It lists very specific circumstances under which it may be attempted.  Please read the paper again to inform yourself.

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