AARHE: Phase 2: Technology

[Imperious Leader]

“Not “double” but rail speed. Say 3.”

turns are 4-6 months why only 3?

[tekkyy]

I think there is a probably with a turn representing 4-6 months
I “think” it was 3 months

anyway I’ve seen 1 month
which is even better, but really bad with construction schedule

I mean with 4-6 months
land units can go anywhere really in non-combat, with or without rail

[Imperious Leader]

Yes right but for some measure of playability it has to be some fixed rail if its a fixed number of units as i originally posted it can be made to work as well. otherwise their is no way to model air interdiction because we would need many planes to “choke off” movement paths. Clearly we must just allow double movement in NCM and some fixed movement on a per nation basis… what you think?

[tekkyy]

yeah we could just allow double movement in non-combat-move
its effects should be quickly revealed in only a little bit of playtesting

but I think the double movement should be if the path only involves territories friendly at the beginning of your turn, or sea zones friendly at the beginning of your turn…of course both needs to be friendly at the moment :)

[Imperious Leader]

Movement by rail only includes movement by land or air units within territories you control. not ones that you took, or are uncontrolled. IN the soviet territories the rail guage was larger so conversion takes 1-2 turns of solid occupation to convert. However this may prove too hard to manage when the Soviets retake german converted rails in the soviet union. Markers will be required?

[tekkyy]

I think territory controlled at the beginning of your turn is good enough as solid occupation

[tekkyy]

back to technology

so what do you think of my proposal of free rolls (modelling research resource that can’t be diverted into production anyway) and mutliple hits before research is complete (modelling research progression)

I guess we’ll end up with minor and major tech
minor tech is 1 hit
major tech is 2 hits

[Imperious Leader]

I like free rolls and the fact that the other player does not know how close you are to the next tech breakthru. Id also like to see tech basically a rolled thing each turn with each tech having a specific amount of boxes…

New idea:

say each nation has a specific amount of rolls ( nation specific number) per turn where it can get the tech which again is a specific amount of boxes to check…

example USA player has say 6 free rolls per turn… It want the atomic bomb ( counting as 10 boxes) and heavy tanks (counting as 3 boxes)  from previous turns it has allready gotten 3 rolls out of 10 for the abomb tech and 2 boxes checked off for heavy tanks…

leaving 7 clear boxes for A- bomb and 1 left for the tanks.

On its turn out of its allotment of 6 rolls it scores twice… it decides to check the final box for tanks ( allowing it to build heavy tanks) and allocates the other score toward the a- bomb tech.

Also each nation will automatically start with a predetermined number of checked boxes! wow thats brilliant if i say so myself!

so Like USA could have 4 checks by its own Atomic bomb program, while germany could start at say 2 checks, while germany could have a check at heavy tanks to start out with… IN that way most likely the progression would start historically as it did because obviously some techs would be closer for some nations than others… also important is it still allows any nations to eventually get any tech thats a win /win idea if i ever came up with it!

[tekkyy]

free rolls and progress I’ve mentioned already and think they would be good

whats new in your idea is the allocation of research hits…which I don’t like
I don’t think its realistic to let the player allocate hits

if you want tech A you must buy rolls for tech A
if you want it this turn (end of this turn) you might buy extra rolls, but you don’t roll over excess hits into tech B

[Imperious Leader]

OK a few points each player gets a specific amount of free rolls, additional rolls can cost money (say 5 IPC). This system i propose could have allocations of what a player decided he wanted to use his sucessful rolls developing. So example: he gets 4 free rolls and decided to spend 10 IPC and rolls 6 times. he will decide he wants 3 rolls on heavy tanks and 3 on the rocket tech… when he suceeds he just marks off the boxes all the while hes closing in on the “magic number” needed to obtain the tech. This is kept hidden from other players at the end of the game you can check to see if he cheated by looking at the total times he was sucessful ( its your job to keep track of his sucess… or you can just trust him)

[tekkyy]

this secrecy aspect can be complicated
come to think of it the OOB model’s luck already implicitly models secrecy in research progress…and even the power in question is uncertain

it’ll be quite complicated if breakthroughs are kept secret too

anyway I am not sure if we should have huge differences between nations free rolls and technology’s boxes

US and Germany has X rolls, the rest has Y rolls, X > Y
major techs at M rolls and minor techs at N rolls, M > N

[Imperious Leader]

this secrecy aspect can be complicated
come to think of it the OOB model’s luck already implicitly models secrecy in research progress…and even the power in question is uncertain

++++ not clear what the idea is here. IN OOB you either have the item after one try or you have nothing… under our system you need to continually advance research untill you obtain it. The other side has no idea how far along the tech path you are so This terrible idea of basically spending all your money on a vegas roll just to keep up with the jones is busted. It will take a period of turns to acquire the tech. That is much better historically, plus you can install natural tendancies based on what a nation was capable of doing realistically in the war. So USA will naturally be closer to completing its atomic bomb before say japan. On its own tech chart it will have say 4 boxes allready checked off, while japan will have say one ( just an example)

it’ll be quite complicated if breakthroughs are kept secret too

+++++ HUH? these are not kept secret?

anyway I am not sure if we should have huge differences between nations free rolls and technology’s boxes

US and Germany has X rolls, the rest has Y rolls, X > Y
major techs at M rolls and minor techs at N rolls, M > N

++++ the basic idea is adaptable… each nation can have the same amount of rolls per turn and it cost x additional for each extra roll. or each nation can allready have x amount of specific tech boxes allready checked off or a combination of these two. Its a very flexable idea.

[tekkyy]

@Imperious:

not clear what the idea is here. IN OOB you either have the item after one try or you have nothing… under our system…

Yeah I know. I am saying progress is built into the luck system in OOB. Except even the power in question does not know the progress. But yeah we can improve it with the new system.

it’ll be quite complicated if breakthroughs are kept secret too
+++++ HUH? these are not kept secret?

By breakthroughs I meant which technologies are complete.
Not Atomic bomb but a weapon upgrade. Its complete but no one else knows? So you declare it when neccessary in combat?
Should this be hidden? I think the Japanese know what was coming (Atomic bomb), only they didn’t know when the attack would be.

the basic idea is adaptable… each nation can have the same amount of rolls per turn and it cost x additional for each extra roll. or each nation can allready have x amount of specific tech boxes allready checked off or a combination of these two. Its a very flexable idea.

I was saying I don’t know if we should have 5 different setup values and 5 different no. of free rolls for the 5 powers thats all. But it should be ok, just put it in a table. Just now you have to justify all those values which can be complicated. So I was sugguesting just X or Y no. of free rolls and M or N no. of boxes….rather than A, B, C, D, E no. of free rolls for the 5 powers.

[tekkyy]

By the way last time I played we made it 2 free rolls per turn and nothing else changed.
And then no one bought additional technology dices.

[Imperious Leader]

OK heres an idea. lets see what you can come up with as the different techs, then we can sort out who gets some advantage in each department. It will take some time to sort out.

simply the techs are:

1. atomic weaponry
2. rocketry
3. super subs
4. long range airplanes
5. jet planes ( fighters and bombers)
6. heavy bombers
7. super tanks?
8. advanced sonar
9. ASW tech level 1,2,3
10. advanced Radar
11. underground factories
12. ??? please add…

[tekkyy]

do we actually need to have sonar and ASW separate?

Sonar improves DD’s sbu-detection as well as screening ability?
ASW lets planes attack submarines?

advanced radar…is that ground combat radar, and/or coastal defense, and/or air combat?

underground factories? I feel this should be an IC upgrade purchased rather than researched

---

how are we doing for the major/minor tech thing?
just major/minor tech, or actually wide differences from 4 to 10 boxes?

[Imperious Leader]

do we actually need to have sonar and ASW separate?

++++ well sort of… naval sonar allows ships to better locate those subs and ASW is the ability to fight subs with specific weapons… so yes they are different

Sonar improves DD’s sbu-detection as well as screening ability?
ASW lets planes attack submarines?

++++ it improves detection… not screening ability

ASW allows planes eventually to have the ability to attack ships in conjunction with ships its a perfected technique.

advanced radar…is that ground combat radar, and/or coastal defense, and/or air combat?

++++++ ground radar allows you to see and react to planes coming overhead. For the game it can possibly allow DAS in the same round rather than having to wait one round for planes to assist.

underground factories? I feel this should be an IC upgrade purchased rather than researched

+++++ The practical value could be better efficiency and -1 on all armor and plane costs… please list what you think all these tech should be. id say about 15 items

[tekkyy]

@Imperious:

ASW allows planes eventually to have the ability to attack ships in conjunction with ships its a perfected technique.

You meant “allows planes eventually to have the ability to attack subs in conjunction wit ships” right?

++++ right

++++++ ground radar allows you to see and react to planes coming overhead. For the game it can possibly allow DAS in the same round rather than having to wait one round for planes to assist.

What happens if attacker does not send planes?  :?

+++ lol then the defender does not play any DAS mission.

underground factories? I feel this should be an IC upgrade purchased rather than researched
+++++ The practical value could be better efficiency and -1 on all armor and plane costs…[/quote[

Cheaper units? I was thinking more like resistance to SBR and our “production interruption”.

+++ ok that would work how would the production thing work in that case?

[quote]please list what you think all these tech should be. id say about 15 items

You’ve covered pretty much everything. Except computers, which is quite major.

But this one is tough to model.
Stronger attack can’t be justified, not even with D12 system.
Quicker attack organisation can’t be modelled currently, with no time limit per turn.
Only thing would be certain technologies should be easier to research after you’ve got “computer” technology.
These would probably be atomic, rocketry, jet, sonar and radar.

++++ how does computer tech apply? you mean the enigma machine? the machine that was decoded by british intelligence?

[tekkyy]

lol try not to reply in the form of moderating my post, because I can’t tell from the forum page whether you’ve replied!

What happens if attacker does not send planes? 
+++ lol then the defender does not play any DAS mission.

Oh, so DAS is only for dogfighting not ground support? And once attacking air force is destroyed DAS air force retreats?

++++ how does computer tech apply? you mean the enigma machine? the machine that was decoded by british intelligence?

Oh no just general computing power. It is used not only for decoding but also gun fires, attack planning, etc…instead of relying on mathematicians.

Hence I was thinking certain technologies should be easier to get with computer power. One book mentions electronic computer would have speed up the Mahattan project. (Among with theories that US government always had more computing power than we know…)

[Imperious Leader]

lol try not to reply in the form of moderating my post, because I can’t tell from the forum page whether you’ve replied!

+++++ SORRY BOUT THAT… had limited time so i took a quick way

Quote
What happens if attacker does not send planes? 
+++ lol then the defender does not play any DAS mission.

Oh, so DAS is only for dogfighting not ground support?

+++ good question! I think defending planes should be allowed to defend ro come in on the second combat round if adjacent. Yes so DAS  works under either contition.

And once attacking air force is destroyed DAS air force retreats?

++++yes

Quote
++++ how does computer tech apply? you mean the enigma machine? the machine that was decoded by british intelligence?

Oh no just general computing power. It is used not only for decoding but also gun fires, attack planning, etc…instead of relying on mathematicians.

++++ hmmm not sure about its relavence in this format… with details explain how it could work?

Hence I was thinking certain technologies should be easier to get with computer power. One book mentions electronic computer would have speed up the Mahattan project. (Among with theories that US government always had more computing power than we know…)

+++++ with this im really not sure its purpose… Ok how bout you list all the tech possible in this game… state basically all the different techs from both revised and 2nd edition. well go thru the list step by step and weed out stuff and add others.

on the cuff:

atomic bombs
surface to air missiles ( v-2/a-4)
heavy tanks
long range artillery ( rail guns)
artificial harbors (mulberry)
jet fighters
jet bombers
long range aircraft
super battleships
super subs ( electro boats)
ASW 1,2,3
efficiant factories ( underground?)
self propelled artillery
chemical weapons
naval sonar
radar
enemy code broken ( you can react to his attacks with some benifit)
guided torpedos?
lance torpedo ( used for shallow waters)
better weapons ( mp44 submachine gun?)