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My map isn’t heavily distorted to fit too many kind of units. I am favour to add new units if only absolutely needed. But Italy and China have units with similar Mech stats to diversify their options.
Simplifying units interactions of Transports, Submarines, Destroyers & planes
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Crusader IV,
I have also developed an alternate Subs rules to solve some aberrations issues a few months ago.
Here is one old and very different Sub HR which allows to use Subs with other warships but required a roll to find them, as you suggested.
However, it solved only 3 out 4 issues.
It didn’t solve the Subs fodder effect as my actual HR on Subs is last warships casualties taken.In this old HR, Subs have a much better survival rate when operating alone but can be used as cheap fodder because planes can hit them without Destroyers simplifying this interaction. As you will see, the detection rule is a bit complex due to combined arms effect of DDs or planes with Cruiser & Subs :
@Baron:
Here, I want to submit another different rules mechanics for aircrafts, destroyers and submarines warfare.
It will reintroduce some aspects discuss in previous threads on Subs and I intent to put it somewhere half-way between the OOB Sub mechanics and the classic Sub mechanics.I will also try to respect as much as possible historical accuracy about planes vs subs, and as much as possible not to be overly complex (the real challenge).
The main distinction in this Subs HR mechanics is based upon the difference between:
a) defending Subs alone (or with Transports) in a SZ and
b) defending Subs with other Warships (DD, CA, CV, BB) in a SZ.First, keep as a basic background the OOB Sub A2D1M2C6 and his capacities for submerge and surprise strike.
Second, all planes keep their basic combat value against subs Fg A3D4 / TcB A3-4D3 /StB A4.
Third, we need to introduce an Air Search Patrol (for planes) and an Anti-Sub Mission (for warships: Subs, Cruisers, Destroyers but excluding capital ones: CV and BB) which take place when attacking in a single SZ a group of Subs only, or Subs with Transports only.
Air Search Patrol:
All planes have to search and find Subs in a SZ before attacking them.
A plane unit needs a “1” or less to find a Sub.
If at least 1 plane succeed, then all planes can then make a regular attack, for 1 round only (before the Subs submerge).
In addition, if at least 1 DD is present (doing an Anti-Sub Mission), each plane unit needs a “2” or less to find a Sub.
(Said otherwise, a DD unit gives +1 to ASP or ASM rolls.)Anti-Sub Mission:
Each Destroyer unit needs a “2” or less to find a Sub.
Only successful DDs can then make a regular attack, for 1 round only (before the Subs submerge).
In addition, if at least 1 plane is present (doing an Air Search Patrol), each DD unit needs a “3” or less to find a Sub.
(Said otherwise, an aircraft unit gives +1 to ASM rolls.)OPTIONAL:
Other warships (excluding CV and BB), Subs and Cruisers need a “0” or less to find Sub.
That’s means that these warships need to be with DD or plane to perform an ASM.
If a plane or a DD is present, it needs a “1” or less to find Subs.
If both plane and DD is present, it needs a “2” or less to find Subs.
Only a successful Sub or Cruiser can then make a regular attack, for 1 round only (before the Subs submerge, if defender choose to do so).OPTIONAL:
EXCEPTIONAL Non-Combat Move allowance
ASM implies to use escorting vessels, such as DD, to be perform in the Subs SZ, and could implies to leave behind bigger ships needing protection and cover.
So, exceptionally, this optional rule can allow a complete 2 spaces move to any unit performing ASM one SZ away from his starting point. So if the combat take place after using only 1 move, all ASM ships are allowed 1 space Non-combat move in any SZ bordering the one in which they performed ASM. This exceptional ASM NCM move is not a 3 spaces move allowance.ASP and ASM are considered simultaneous.
When all the search rolls are done, only the successful warships and all or none of the planes (according to the ASP results) are considered part of the first combat round.
If the defending Subs stay for another round instead of submerging, then all the attacking warships and planes will be part of the second round.Subs alone on defense:
Except for planes (which subs cannot hit), defending subs get a Defense roll @1.
Against Destroyer (and other subs), Subs have no surprise strike.
Addendum: The attacker’s casualties from Subs can be taken amongst all warships units in the SZ, not just the ones which spotted the Subs. As usual, owner choose casualty.If OPTIONAL is included:
Against Cruiser, subs keep the surprise strike @1 as long as there is no DD present.
Defending Subs can always choose not to submerge after submitting to the first round of ASP or ASM.
If it is the case, then, this time, all the attacker’s units in the SZ get a round of direct fire on subs.
It lasts as long as the defender choose not to submerge (or even destroy all attacker’s warships unit!?).
Defending Subs with other warships (DD, CA, CV, BB) and scrambling planes (Fg or TcB).
When others warships or scrambling planes are present, their is no need to search for Subs (via ASP or ASM).
All planes and warships attack at their regular value.However, if there is no attacking DD, Subs keep all capacities (first strike & submerge) and Subs commander can choose to submerge any or all subs during the surprise strike phase.
Subs can also stay in the battle as cheap fodder for warships, defender’s choice, D0 (vs attacking planes) / D1 (vs attacking warships).If an attacking DD is present, then Subs can only submerge at the beginning of the second round (during subs submerge phase and before regular combat phase).
And couldn’t retrieve their surprise strike until all attacking DDs are sunk.
Finally, I add another little OPTIONAL Rule, which can be isolated from all the above and be part of OOB subs mechanics:
Sub targeting RULE
If Subs on offence get any hit after the first round, the attacker, if he wishes so, can pick a transport as casualty instead of a warships (warships casualties still chosen by owner). -
Subs must be independent of the rest of the fleet.
In defense and in attack.
Subs must play first and once the subs are done, go ahead with the warships.
ALCrusader IV,
here is another Subs HR in which I was mixing 3 games mechanics together:
1- OOB 1940, 1942
2- Classic OOB
3- World War II The expansion I for A&A, from David Schwartzer.To create a more integrated Subs rule which could be more of a chess game for Naval Warfare between Subs, planes, warships (CA, CV, BB), escorts ASV (DD and a new CVE) and transports.
All having a specific role with strength and weakness.The Air Search phase has been deleted by reducing the attack value of planes to @1.
The odds are the same. 2/6*3/6= 6/36 or 1/6
Destroyer get a single roll @2.One HR I didn’t develop yet was that Subs have 2 options when all these surface vessels are in the same SZ:
1- attack escort and warships
2- attack escort and transports (each TT unit having a 1 hit value but D0), letting the defending player choosing casualties between DD, CVE and TT.Crusader IV, probably you can provide us some rule mechanics you used to do such separate attack.
@Baron:
WARNING: Some additional specific points written in red are covered to take account all Subs naval warfare situations vs Cruisers and vs Subs.
I’m working on a different kind of naval warfare (a variant I played many times on Classic board which creates a much more chess-like action on the ocean) where Subs act as a lonely and separated group even when sharing the same Sea Zone as other friendly surface vessels and transports.
Here is some little things of this new HR about Sub Warfare (nSWHR).
You will see that some anomalies about planes vs Subs created in OOB 1940 and 1942 will disappear:
A) Planes that need another unit to attack subs.
B) Subs being used as naval cannon fodder for air and naval attack or defense.
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Here is the basics principles:As OOB, Sub cannot hit air units.
Aircrafts (Fg, TcB, StB) can attack Subs anytime, they get only A1 (same in SBR combat) and don’t need any DD or other AntiSub Vessel (ASV) to destroy Subs.
Battleship cannot attack submarines.
But, BB still defend @4 against subs, and G40 BB and CV (as OOB) can take 1 hit before going down on a second hit.
However, 1942 BB must be treat as a 1 hit unit vs Subs attacks. So 1 single shot can sink it, and it is a good thing to provide them DD/CVE cover.
Play-testing reveal that this change is to make Subs attack an interesting threat against 2 BBs in 1942 version.
Because they immediately recover at the end of the attacking player’s turn. Without this change, such a fleet with 2 BBs at his core, is virtually invulnerable against Subs attack and won’t requires any DD to provide protection and cover vs Subs.Cruiser Att @3 Def @3 vs subs but it is not an ASV.
It cannot block Sub Surprise strike attack.
It can go AntiSub Mission (ASM) by itself but
Subs can defend @1 with Surprise strike (same capacity as OOB).
So Subs can sink cruisers without ASV before it can even attack (as OOB Sub rule).Same last rules applied for 1942.2 Fleet carrier: CV A1D2M2C14 in ASM vs Subs.
Destroyer A2D2M2C8, ASV as OOB block Subs Surprise strike, will give _+1A bonus to any one plane (Fg, TcB, StB) when paired with for ASM_.*
There will be an Escort Carrier unit A0D1M2C10, carrying 1 plane (Fg or TcB) ASV, giving a +2A bonus to any one plane (Fg, TcB, StB) paired with while on ASM.
In counterpart, **subs A2D1M2C6 after a defence roll @1 are able to submerge vs all units at the beginning of the second round of an ASM.
On offence, Subs can attack Subs but they don’t get any First round Sneak Attack nor Surprise Attack vs each others same as they were 2 regular ships unit. Defending Subs can still submerge after the first round attack, as said below.
Submerge: allow Sub to withdraw in the same SZ from any battle at the beginning of the second round, and after.
So Subs become more elusive, and have a better chance to hide even when there is an ASV in the SZ (to the contrary of OOB Global and 1942 where ASV also block Subs Submerge ability).
In this HR, it was possible to give plane another attacking value (as in a StratBR/TacBR escorting and intercepting role) because even when sharing a SZ, you treat Subs groups as they were in separate SZs (except for “SZ of control” determination):
if a player with 2Fgs and 3DDs want to attack a SZ with 2DDs and 4 Subs, for example,
he will have to choose between whether attacking DDs group or attacking Subs group.So, it means either A) 2 Fgs A3 + 3 DDs A2 vs 2DDs or B) 2 Fgs A1+1* + 3DDs A2vs 4 Subs.
Now subs won’t be the cannon fodder of any surface vessels as the OOB will imply in the example.
2 Fgs+ 3 DDs vs 2 DDs + 4 Subs.Because, in this situation, assuming you protect the better defending and costlier unit: the defender will loose 4 subs before loosing DDs.
And, as usual, the attacker will think twice to throw DDs with aircrafts when there is a bunch of subs.
It is often better to throw only aircrafts to destroy surface vessels so this OOB battle example will only imply: 2 Fgs vs 2 DDs, since Fgs by themselves cannot hit Subs.What do you think of this first part of the basic principles for Subs warfare?
On the other side,
when Subs will be attacking, they will attack in a first wave assault of subs only group (before all others units) until retreating or a victory.All ASV (DD, escort carrier CVE) will block the Surprise attack as long as there is an ASV defending with other vessels.
So any surface vessels sunk by subs will still be able to fire back, as in OOB.
When there is no more ASV, then Subs will retrieve Surprise attack and any ship sunk won’t be able to fireback, as OOB rule.Planes will be able to defend against subs (Fg @D4, TcB @D3) without the need of DD (or CVE).
However, Subs will also get a special “First round sneak attack”, which differs from Surprise strike:
during the first round, only ASV (DD or CVE+ 1 Fg or TcB carried) can fireback at subs.
In addition, any successful sub making a hit is allowed (not compelled) _**to withdraw from battle before the DDs and CVEs(+ Fg or TcB on it) return fire against it.
However, all remaining unsuccessful subs must endure the ASV units defender’s rolls before choosing whether or not to withdraw from battle at the very end of the first round.
This “First round sneak attack” rule implies that all others ships including Fleet carrier (CV) and any one or two planes on board can only fireback on the second round and after.
So the new CVE and her 1 plane will have a better defensive and distinctive role from the Fleet carrier against subs.Example: 2 subs A2 vs 1 DD D2 and 2 cruisers D3
ROUND 1
First rnd sneak attack, subs roll: “1” and “3”, defender choose to sunk the DD.
1 sub can choose to withdraw. And do it.
(It is not the best tactical choice, but it is for simplicity.)Since it is the first round, only the DD can roll to fireback.
If it is a hit (“1” or “2”) then the remaining sub is sunk, the battle is over and the 2 cruisers survive.(Supposing both Subs have rolled a hit, then the battle could be over if both Subs withdrawn because the DD cannot hit any remaining unsuccessful sub. However, 1 last cruiser have survived the battle.)
If the DD miss the shot at the last Sub, then this attacking Sub can withdraw (as OOB said).
But, for the example, suppose 1 Sub stays for a second round.ROUND 2
This lonely sub now have Surprise attack and Submerge since there is no more ASV in the SZ.
As OOB said at the beginning of the round, Sub can either Submerge or make a Surprise strike.
Sub goes for the kill:
a “1” or “2”, then 1 cruiser is sunk without being able to retaliate.
A miss left the possibility to both cruisers to defend @3.Everything continue as OOB rule said.
Finally, after the battle is concluded,
if the remaining subs didn’t kill all the enemy units in the SZ, Subs must retreat 1 SZ from where they came.
if all enemy units are destroyed in the SZ, then subs can choose to either stay in the SZ or they can still retreat 1 SZ from where they came.What do you think of this second part of the basic principles for Subs warfare?_
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To be honest in explorations of alternate HR to solve the Subs aberrations issues. I decided to present this suggestion from Uncrustable.
@Uncrustable:
A simpler fix is leave everything as it stands, but remove all the special submarine rolls. There are no restrictions against air vs submarines. No destroyers required…
Then introduce a new submerge rule, submarines if not submerged can battle it out vs air. No change to any dice values. Any submarine however may choose to submerge before each round of combat (only once per battle and may not resurface once submerged)
Once a submarine submerges it may no longer fire at aircraft, defense or offense.
Conversely aircraft may only roll at submerged submarines if supported by a friendly destroyer on a 1:1 basis.All submarines are assumed not to be submerged until a battle commences at which point the owner may choose to submerge.
Very simple rule. Basically subs can shoot at planes and planes at subs as long as the sub is on the surface (makes sense). Once subs submerge they cant shoot at the sky anymore (duh!). Each air unit needs a destroyer to roll against submerged submarines.
No changes to any dice values.It simplify the subs vs planes interactions. And all others situations when transports are involved but at the expense of historical accuracy, when Subs are on attack.
It introduces the 1:1 DD’s blocker capacity.
It recreates a tactical dynamics with Submarines “submerge but blocked” cannot defend against planes, but can she defend against DDs?
While on surface, Subs can defend @1 against all units. Acting on defense like a weaker Destroyer unit.
But it is also possible to attack planes @2, making them as dangerous as any Destroyer unit. (Most problematic aspect of this rule which needs further tuning, IMO)Besides the ambiguous “submerge Subs blocked by DDs” the other weakness of this HR is that it makes Subs a cheaper padding unit for fleet than destroyer.
Hence, it creates an incentive to have more first combat round Subs Destruction Festival. -
i]Basically subs can shoot at planes and planes at subs as long as the sub is on the surface
Sub can shoot planes???
Don’t agree….Did you ever develop somewhere in the forum a complete summary of your adapted WWII Expansion Sub Rules (including the stats of both DD and DE)?
No because no one ask for it…
Probably some peoples would like to try yours for change, if they are tired of seeing Subs sinking in the bottom of the ocean so fast in OOB.
If there’s a demand….
Our group play with the same sub rules since 15 years…with great success but like all rules…nothing is perfect. -
i]Basically subs can shoot at planes and planes at subs as long as the sub is on the surface
Sub can shoot planes???
Don’t agree….Did you ever develop somewhere in the forum a complete summary of your adapted WWII Expansion Sub Rules (including the stats of both DD and DE)?
No because no one ask for it…
Probably some peoples would like to try yours for change, if they are tired of seeing Subs sinking in the bottom of the ocean so fast in OOB.
If there’s a demand….
Our group play with the same sub rules since 15 years…with great success but like all rules…nothing is perfect.About Subs, at some point during the Atlantic battle, it is true that Hitler gave the order to Subs commander to say on surface and shoot at incoming planes with their AA gun. There is some record of a few planes which were killed by it.
I don’t like Uncrustable HR, but it can becomes playable with a few adjustments. And it is simpler, I think.
On your Subs rules, you answered to a lot of my questions on your rules derived from World War II the Expansion, but these answered are scattered. For my part, I surely like to have a complete understanding of your way of playing with Destroyer and Destroyer Escort in a second edition setting. I believe other would like to read. For my own experience with this kind of rule in a Classic setting, I know it is a bit more complicated than OOB but it is more interesting to use Subs. If it worked for 15 years. I think it worth to be known and share. Don’t you think?
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I know it is a bit more complicated than OOB but it is more interesting to use Subs. If it worked for 15 years. I think it worth to be known and share. Don’t you think?
I will but only if there’s enough demand….
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I know it is a bit more complicated than OOB but it is more interesting to use Subs. If it worked for 15 years. I think it worth to be known and share. Don’t you think?
I will but only if there’s enough demand….
Thanks,
it can be easy to see.
People have just to +1 your post, as I just did. -
OK, now you got 2 +, is that demand enough ?
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OK, now you got 2 +, is that demand enough ?
:evil: no…
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@Baron:
I realized that a real play-test should have less additional rule patch. If it works with less this would be cool enough.
So, here is what I keep for the test.
I’ll go with Classics TP A0 D1 M2 C8.
Subs A2 D1 M2 C6, with OOB Submerge, Surprise Strike, etc.
I keep this single casualty rules:
Subs can be chosen as casualty if there is no eligible surface warship.Destroyer A2 D2 M2 C8, as DK’s HR: blocks Subs abilities on a 1:1 basis.
Planes can hit Subs anytime, DD not needed.
That is the core of my HR to simplify interactions.
Compared to OOB, there is still only 1 special casualty rule instead of being applied to Transport, it is for Subs.If it works in Playtest, is funny and units are somewhat balance, then there is no need for additional rules I intended to use in my Opening Post.
Mainly Knp’s 1 round before Submerge and
special retreat move for DDs and Subs.Could it be enough simplified to everybodys’ taste?
Here is the six points I tested in my last 1942.2 A&A experience:
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Classics TP A0 D1 M2 C8. But taken last casualty.
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Subs A2 D1 M2 C6, with OOB Submerge, Surprise Strike, etc.
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Subs can be chosen as casualty if there is no eligible surface warship.
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Destroyer A2 D2 M2 C8, as DK’s HR: blocks Subs abilities on a 1:1 basis.
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Planes can hit Subs anytime, DD not needed.
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Knp’s 1 round before Submerge
My first impressions are that 1 DD:1 Sub combined with Subs surprise strike makes Destroyer weaker than Subs.
On opening moves, German’s two atlantic Subs were very successful because 1 single preemptive hit was enough to sunk the destroyer without any retaliation. This left a weak Transport defending @1 against two Subs.
The USA’s DD+planes easily get rid of 1 atlantic Subs in the first round (the other sub submerge) but, again, the surviving DD was no match against the 2 remaining U-boats (1 which was able to submerge in the previous battle and the other coming from the previous assault on UK’s Battleship.) The destroyer was again sunk by a preemptive strike.
So, attacking Subs were already deadlier on the same IPCs basis than Destroyer.
But, in any numerical advantage over DDs, it is even more deadlier if DDs cannot retaliate.
And compared to Subs against Subs, in which all defendings Subs still keep their roll @1, it seems very strange and quite unhistorical: Subs can retaliate while Destroyers can’t.On that point, I come to the same conclusion as Zombie69 here:
@Zombie69:If you make destroyers work against subs only on a 1:1 basis, you’ll have to increase sub cost to 8 IPCs or they’ll be grossely overpowered. It’s already tough defending against subs when you need to spend 8 IPCs for every 6 IPCs spent by your opponent. If every sub that isn’t matched also gets to make a first strike, then it gets ridiculously overpowered for the guy buying subs. Either that, or bring their attack down to 1 (but I don’t think that would be enough).
It has a big impact on this basic naval unit interaction.
That’s why I think this other idea makes things more balance and still go in the way Zombie suggested (Subs roll @1):@Baron:
@Baron:
Maybe there should be a difference about attacking DD ability against subs and defending DD against subs.
It seems easier (because of the interaction with defending planes on carrier) to treat defending DD as OOB.One DD cannot be everywhere.
In fact, 1 DD sculpt means many destroyers ships. And usually they are escorting other attacking warships.
So, they are not scattered around the sea-zone, every ship by itself, hoping to hit a submarine vessel.I think that even a single defending DD is enough to block all attacking subs surprise strike. I rationalize it this way: to provide a good defense against subs Destroyers just have to stay close to the others warships they are escorting. DD don’t need to be everywhere in a SZ.
On the opposite, when going Anti-Sub mission, they are patrolling a large zone and if they stay too close to each other it will be harder for destroyers to find targets.
That’s why I think the 1:1 restriction better fit for attacking DDs.
In addition, an attacking player always have the opportunity to ponder if he have enough units on his side to make an effective attack and, if not, he will plan something else.
If a defending player have only 1 DD with other warships, there is a lot of chance he will pick the DD as first casualty instead of loosing bigger warships.
So, in the second combat round, a large subs fleet will retrieve his first strike capacity.
Don’t you think?A single defending DD is enough to block all attacking subs surprise strike. Keeping OOB rule.
However, outnumbering defending Subs can get their surprise strike @1.
This will allows a greater range of tactics when 2 or more Subs are in a SZ (wolf-pack situation) and only a single Destroyer is bring with a lot of planes.
Instead of all submerging but the one blocked Sub, all Subs can rather roll on defense increasing the odds of destroying the attacking Destroyer at the expense of taking the risk of losing more subs.This change is more accurate with history but makes a distinction between “attacking DDs which can block surprise strike on 1:1 basis” and “defending DDs which block all surprise strike”.
As always, it is at the expense of simplifying.If someone wants something simpler, I think he should just restrict the 1:1 blocker to Sub’s Submerge only.
Keeping the OOB 1 DD negates Surprise Strike of all Subs.
Other point, the “Knp’s 1 round of Subs under attack before allowed to Submerge” is redundant for 1 or 2 pinned Subs with the 1 DD:1 Sub blocked .
It is because usually the attacker get rid of them in the first combat round. However, this rule can give greater odds of survivability if many Subs are in the same SZs, assuming they cannot be all destroyed in a single round.For now, I’m not quite sure it worth keeping it, specially if someone wants to simplify interactions between units.
The Subs can be chosen as casualty if there is no eligible surface warship works well.
It allows to make planes works as other units when engaging against Subs.
It requires a small adjusting time at first when taking casualty to not include planes as a prior casualty over Subs. The rule stated warships first, then Subs. Planes can be taken any time before, after or at the same time as Subs. -
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My first impressions are that 1 DD:1 Sub combined with Subs surprise strike makes Destroyer weaker than Subs.
On opening moves, German’s two atlantic Subs were very successful because 1 single preemptive hit was enough to sunk the destroyer without any retaliation. This left a weak Transport defending @1 against two Subs.
The USA’s DD+planes easily get rid of 1 atlantic Subs in the first round (the other sub submerge) but, again, the surviving DD was no match against the 2 remaining U-boats (1 which was able to submerge in the previous battle and the other coming from the previous assault on UK’s Battleship.) The destroyer was again sunk by a preemptive strike.
So, attacking Subs were already deadlier on the same IPCs basis than Destroyer.
But, in any numerical advantage over DDs, it is even more deadlier if DDs cannot retaliate.
And compared to Subs against Subs, in which all defendings Subs still keep their roll @1, it seems very strange and quite unhistorical: Subs can retaliate while Destroyers can’t.To Der Kuenstler,
I’m wondering if you get a similar issue with your Subs on the 1:1 DD’s blocking capacity?
And, if not, why?
Is it because of your Classic transports, used as first casualties, thus letting DDs retaliate?
Or because in your play-test all Subs were going Convoy raiding instead of chasing DDs and TPs?
Or maybe, you didn’t see this as an issue? -
Here is the six points I tested in my last 1942.2 A&A experience:
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Classics TP A0 D1 M2 C8. But taken last casualty.
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Subs A2 D1 M2 C6, with OOB Submerge, Surprise Strike, etc.
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Subs can be chosen as casualty if there is no eligible surface warship.
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Destroyer A2 D2 M2 C8, as DK’s HR: blocks Subs abilities on a 1:1 basis.
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Planes can hit Subs anytime, DD not needed.
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Knp’s 1 round before Submerge
My first impressions are that 1 DD:1 Sub combined with Subs surprise strike makes Destroyer weaker than Subs.
To correct somehow this issue, maybe this additionnal abilities for Destroyers could work.
Immune to Sub’s Surprise Strike
Anytime a Destroyer is chosen for casualty resulting from a Sub’s Surprise Strike, this Destroyer is allowed to still make a defense roll.I’m not sure if it really change something compared to OOB: 1 DD cancel all Subs’ Surprise Strike.
With few units, it only add a layer of complexity but didn’t change the result.Example A: 2 Subs vs 1 DD and 1 Cruiser.
Both Subs get a hit. The owner allocated the surprise strike to DD and the regular to Cruiser.
Same result as with OOB rule.It change something only if there is at least 2 more Sub units than Destroyer unit.
Example B: 3 Subs vs 1 DD and 2 Cruiser.If both surprise strikes get a hit, then 1 hit sink Cruiser without allowing it a defense roll.
According to OOB rule, the Cruiser still have a defense roll.It changes nothing from OOB in the case there is 2 hits but only 1 surprise strike hit.
The surprise strike hit would be allocated to Destroyer then the other to Cruiser.
So, both casualties can keep a defense roll.
Maybe these complex situations provides some way of understanding the ground of OOB simple rule about 1 Destroyer negates all Subs’ surprise strikes.
Here is another post which discuss the 1 DD: 1 Sub ratio.
@Bridger:I never liked the implementation of destroyers in A&A. Basically all one player has to do to innoculate themselves against sub attacks is build a single destroyer per fleet.
So US and UK each build a single 8 IPC unit (or maybe two) and it completely removes the unit from play for the germans.
Huh? Why should 16 IPCs completely invalidate a unit’s usefulness?
I always enjoyed the house rule of the destroyer’s ability to cancel sub’s specials being a 1-to-1 ratio. I.E. a single destroyer cannot stop a vastly larger number of subs. Are the ASW capabilities of the destroyer endless? no matter how many fleets of submarines, this one fleet of destroyers can stop all of them from getting a sneak attack? It seems bad from a gameplay and realism perspective. Instead, for every destroyer present, one sub loses it’s opening fire/submerge/submersible abilities. So if you attack a fleet with 3 subs and they only have one destroyer, two subs still get opening fire.
This makes much more sense in terms of gameplay and actually allows for utilizing a sub strategy as germany. Anybody have any reason this shouldn’t be the case?
@Silent:
The only reason is that even without surprise attacks subs for let’s say 24 ipcs (4 subs) beat 24 ipcs of destroyers (3 destroyers) on both offense and defense on average.
Subs still marginalized…by DD this time…
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=12899.msg357726#msg357726As others have said before probably, Destroyers counter subs on a 1 to 1 basis and allow undetected subs to choose transports as targets. This was there goal anyway.
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A single defending DD is enough to block all attacking subs surprise strike.
Not sure at all with that….no sense… -
A single defending DD is enough to block all attacking subs surprise strike.
Not sure at all with that….no sense…It seems a non-sense, but it is OOB rule.
Otherwise, “1 DD blocks 1 Sub” makes Destroyer defense weaker than Sub defense when an attacking Sub get a hit on a surprise strike.
The defending sub can still roll @1 his own surprise strike roll while the defending Destroyer is immediatly removed.This also makes defending Destroyer, against a surprise strike hit, almost the same on defense than a carrier.
Same defense @2, immediatly removed from play if hit by a sub surprise strike roll. -
Why not just let DD bombard @2, no ASW. Make ASW a tech applicable to surface warships and aircraft. To counter this add tech to super subs as such: Super Submarines now attack +1 additionally subs may submerge after the first round of fire if the enemy has ASW tech.
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It seems a non-sense, but it is OOB rule.
So what…
The sub must have the advantage when they attack not the destroyer. -
It seems a non-sense, but it is OOB rule.
So what…
The sub must have the advantage when they attack not the destroyer.IMO, Submarines already get the advantage over Destroyers because of their cheaper price:
4 Subs A8 D4 C24 against 3 DDs A6 D6 C24 No surprise strike.
AAcalc:
Overall %*: A. survives: 78.2% D. survives: 18.8% No one survives: 3%
For the same cost, Subs are 4 times better.Their survival even rise at least 5% higher if we give a first strike to the outnumbering sub:
Overall %*: A. survives: 83.5% D. survives: 16.5% No one survives: 0%
(I input this data to get an approximation: 1 Subs A2 first strike + 3 DDs A2 against 3 Carriers Defending @2, keeping the sub as the last casualty)That’s another reason to rather prefer OOB rules about 1 DD blocking all Subs surprise strike.
However, maybe the 1:1 rule can be kept if playing with plain Classic Transport.
That way, it becomes the defender decision to choose a transport unable to defend @1 because it is taken as casualties instead of a Destroyer.
This would let the Destroyer his reaction roll @2 against Sub while transports are used as fodder.This can become a way to see some Submarines destroying transports while being sunk by Destroyers defense.
This can figure somehow and provide the feel of an Atlantic battle in a game where there is no merchant’s convoy like 1942.2.
Some subs surprise the defender convoy but usually attacking the less defended and slower unit in it.@CWO:
WWII battleships were not slow, especially the modern ones of 1930s and 1940s vintage. The “slowest” modern battleships had a maximum speed of about 27 knots, and the fastest ones of all, the Iowa class, could do better than 33 knots, which on par with what a typical true destroyer could do and better than a destroyer escort could do. As a rough generalization, you could say that the WWII battleships which dated from the WWI era weren’t fast enough to keep up with carrier task forces, and hence tended to be used for shore-bombardment and convoy-escort duties, so there would be some justification in giving them special treatment regarding speed…but in terms of A&A naval units, the only ones that would realistically (based on real-life average performance in WWII) be too slow to retreat would be naval transports.
In fact, Destroyers defending against Submarine attacking and sinking transports have totally disappear and can no more happen with the OOB Taken Last rule for Transport.
This documentary provides interesting infos on US Submarines working in the Pacific Theatre of Operation.
It shows how it was a seldom occasion to sink a surface warship because of their speed.
The main explanation starts around 32 minutes to 36 minutes. Especially 32m.30s to 33 m.
SUBMARINE WARFARE OF WORLD WAR II - Military History (documentary)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzZYDa_nA0w -
Why not just let DD bombard @2, no ASW. Make ASW a tech applicable to surface warships and aircraft. To counter this add tech to super subs as such: Super Submarines now attack +1 additionally subs may submerge after the first round of fire if the enemy has ASW tech.
Interesting option to compensate for a less efficient Destroyer.
However, such a bombard would totally makes cruisers obsolete.
2 Cruisers bombard @3 Cost 24 while 3 Destroyers bombard @2, same cost.
In both case you get 6 points for bombardment but you increase the number of possible hits with DDs.
Making it a better unit than cruiser.If it goes that way, the bombardment should be slightly weaker.
I think you provide many other ways to make DDs bombard in at least 2 threads (1 in 1942.2 and the other in House rules).I’m not playing with Tech, but your idea could also be appealing to someone willing to add some historical depiction of the evolution of this warfare making them available during specific timeframe game round progression.
Example, during the first three rounds all Subs vs DDs is played 1:1.
At the beginning of the fourth to the sixth, 1 DD unit is now blocking all surprise strike, but 1:1 against submerge.
At the seventh till the end, DDs are treated like OOB.So this could describe the evolution of technology in the subwarfare from an Allies perspective.
Supersubmarine abilities can be develop at specific timeframe also. -
Here is a very interesting but long post on our matter at hand, author is Justin Royek (if anyone knows him):
Dear BGG and AA community of gamers,
I have decided to make a variant pertaining to destroyer-submarine interactions, that would in my opinion better reflect submarine warfare in World War II as seen in the Axis & Allies game.
The current rules say that having a destroyer present negates a submarine’s first-shot stealth attack.
This is unrealistic because many submarine captains could sneak up undetected from enemy destroyers guarding a convoy because of a method called “silent running”Silent running is a method where submarines run as quietly as possible to avoid detection by enemy destroyers. Submarines often used this is the North Atlantic to avoid being detected. Most of the time, a destroyer did not know a submarine was there until a ship in the convoy was hit and/or sinking, then something was going on for sure.
But the game does not allow for submarines to utilize their silent running capabilities when dealing with enemy ships with a destroyer was present, when World War II submarine skippers were able to sneak up into a convoy even though a destroyer was present because the sensors on the destroyer cannot pick it up because the sub is silent.
For example, an account by a US submariner in World War II.
It happened on the submarine USS Puffer when it was rigged to “run silent, run deep” to avoid detection by a Japanese destroyer. Everything was shut off – air conditioning, refrigeration and fans. “Anything that would make noise and betray us to the enemy was shut off,” said the Mount Kisco, N.Y., native. To maintain silence, the crew stood in water a few inches deep from condensation, walked around in stocking feet and ate with their hands.
The rule that says that a submarine cannot submerge with a destroyer present is foolhardy because any sane submariner would submerge their boat when a destroyer is attacking them to prevent their boat from being blown to bits. This rule goes against common sense in relation to submarine warfare and allows you to be blown to bits by a destroyer. This is like a rule that says that you cannot go prone on a battlefield because a sniper is present or something like. It’s absolutely ridiculous that your submarine cannot submerge when a destroyer is present!
This goes against one of the fundamental elements of submarine warfare. To submerge when under attack by an enemy destroyer. To take him on the surface is suicide because you’ll get rammed and or blown to bits.
Another rule that submarines cannot fire at air units is also inaccurate because submarines of the period traveled mostly on the surface as their batteries did not allow them to travel for long periods of time underwater. These are not nuclear submarines we are dealing with in this game that aren’t equipped with AA guns.
Submarines shot down air units attacking them during the war. For example, a submarine at Pearl Harbor shot down a Japanese Zero during the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor.
**My new rule will allow destroyers to roll after a submarine fires it’s first shot attack.
Submarines and destroyers will fire first before all other naval units will do so.
The attacker or defender must fire their submarine’s first shot attack first. Then any attacking or defending destroyers roll.**The defender has 2 destroyers, one rolls a “2” a hit, the other a “3” a miss.
The attacker’s submarine’s 5 submarines fire like this. 3 submarines roll a “2” a “1” and a “3” 2 hits and 1 miss and the other two roll a “4” a miss and a “1” a hit. Any hits incurred from a first-shot attack by a submarine and a destroyer’s depth charge rolls are sunk also.
Destroyers often left their convoys to attack submarines that were sighted after sinking a ship in the convoy. The other submarines in the pack were able to sneak past these destroyers because the enemy destroyers were distracted with the other submarines in the pack, which enabled other submarines to attack other ships in the convoy and sink them, which caused losses among ships in the convoy. The British had few destroyers early in the war to counteract U-boats.
Destroyers were not designed to defend against enemy submarines, they were designed mostly as fleet escort ships or to hunt down enemy torpedo boats. The name destroyer comes from the designation of the ship’s role as a torpedo-boat destroyer. Destroyers were usually not designed to take on subs. However a new class of ship was called a destroyer escort or DE as it was known. These were ships designed to take on enemy submarines.
They had sub hunters like corvettes, not the car though. They had hunter-killer groups that were composed of destroyers and carriers. The destroyers had sonar to hunt enemy subs. Sonar did not always detect a submarine because the submarine’s were [remaining silent?]
The rule that a destroyer always detects a submarine, is therefore unrealistic because it goes against the real capabilities of sonar systems, which can only detect a submarine if it makes any noise.
I will also allow submarines to move into a sea zone occupied by a destroyer during non-combat phase because no combat is going on and submarines are using their silent running capabilities to inhabit sea zones inhabited by destroyers. Submarines were often able to move into sea zones inhabited by destroyers because of their stealthy silent-running capabilities and the minimizing of noise made by the boat.
You’d have to pretty suicidal to not submerge when a destroyer is attacking you.
Destroyers usually didn’t attack submarines until a ship in the convoy or task force was hit and or sinking. Submarines could conduct sneak attacks against enemy destroyers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_running_(submarine)
http://books.google.com/books?id=wHhpv6YgYgUC&pg=PA60&lpg=PA…http://books.google.com/books?id=tCjTUVCa6H4C&pg=PA77&lpg=PA…
http://books.google.com/books?id=Tzp58htKLkEC&pg=PA65&lpg=PA…
Submarines could always sneak into a sea zone undetected if a destroyer was present because of silent running, which enabled them to be undetected. This makes more sense in the game to equip submarines with silent running capabilities.
I am going to make it so that a submarine’s first shot strike is not negated by a destroyer and submarines can transit through sea zones inhabited by enemy destroyers to another hostile sea zone. When doing this, a submarine does not have to stop and conduct combat with a hostile destroyer in a hostile sea zone.
If a sub goes through a sea zone with a destroyer, just like an air unit goes through a hostile territory with an AA gun in it, a destroyer will roll a die roll for the destroyer. The die roll is a standard “2” or less for a standard destroyer’s die roll. This is to simulate destroyer attacks on subs.
In World War II, German U-boats were able to travel through the Straits of Gibraltar into the Mediterranean, through sea zones inhabited by British destroyers. The cunning tactics of the German U-boat skippers (Herr Kaleuns as they were known) and silent running, enabled them to sneak past the ships guarding the Straits into the Mediterranean to submarine bases at La Spezia to assist their Italian brothers in arms in the Mediterranean and sink British shipping there.
The idea that subs have cannot go through a sea zone inhabited by a hostile destroyer goes against the historical realities of naval submarine warfare. Submarines were often able to sneak in undetected. A submarine can choose whether or not to do combat in a sea zone with a hostile destroyer.
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/754134/submarine-destroyer-interaction
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Continue from precedent post:
Air units can attack submarines with a destroyer present.
Air units routinely attacked submarines without a destroyer present at night because they had radar. The radar enabled them to see in the dark. Another thing I will add is that air units can attack submarines without a destroyer present if their nation has radar capability technology.I am going to allow air units to attack without a destroyer present because submarines mostly traveled on the surface at this time. The rule saying that an air unit cannot attack a sub without a destroyer present makes it seem like submarines of the World War II period travel underwater all the time. This makes submarines like the nuclear submarines of today that travel purely underwater, which is unrealistic as submarines mostly traveled on the surface because of their limited underwater endurance as their electric batteries did not permit them to stay under for a long time.
Air units frequently attacked submarines without a destroyer present. Especially long range aircraft, like the Short Sunderland flying boat or the PBY Catalina, which often detected submarines traveling on the surface because a guy in the airplane had a pair of binoculars during long hours of sub patrols of boring mundane work. When a periscope was spotted or a surfaced submarine, they would go into attack. It didn’t matter if a destroyer was present or not. Air units will coordinate with destroyers when attacking submarines though. The destroyer’s roll will be enhanced. When air units attack with a destroyer present, their capabilities will be enhanced like a tank enhances a tactical bomber’s attack roll to a “4” or less.
Many navies had dedicated anti-submarine warfare (ASW) aircraft dedicated to hunting enemy submarines. They often attacked without a destroyer present because the submarines they often spotted, attacked, and sank often traveled on the surface to charge their batteries or were cruising on the surface. Submarines in World War II cruised on the surface.
Many U-boats were sunk by patrol aircraft out at sea.
Hudsons began to receive ASV radar in early 1940, and were assigned specifically to antisubmarine duty beginning in August of 1940 from Aldergrove, Northern Ireland. In March, 1941 No. 269 Squadron began operations from Iceland. One of the Hudson’s first successes against U-boats was on August 27, 1941, when an Iceland-based Hudson bombed and damaged U-570 and, after repeated strafing passes, observed the U-boat crew to surrender. The Hudson circled the U-boat and called additional aircraft and ships to the scene. U-570 was indeed captured intact, although the crew had thrown the Enigma machine and codebooks overboard. Hudsons went on to achieve two dozen additional successes against U-boats. An Africa-based RAF Hudson of No. 608 Squadron was the first aircraft to sink a U-boat with rockets.
http://uboat.net/allies/aircraft/hudson.htmhttp://uboat.net/boats/u656.htm
Sunk without a destroyer present.
I will make a new rule that says that when attacking a submarine with air units, the destroyer’s attack role will be boosted by a “3” or less because the destroyer’s capabilities are being boosted by the use of aircraft attacking the submarine. Air units no longer need to have a destroyer present to attack submarines.
Destroyers did not always detect enemy submarines. The idea that a destroyer magically detects a submarine goes against the realities of naval warfare.
Submarine detection by destroyers was a hit or miss affair as spotting with sonar was not always precise because subs could use tricks like putting on some noise for example to “give away” their position and then disappear, which would give destroyers the false impression that a submarine was there, when in fact it wasn’t and the submarine had evaded detection.
Sonar was primitive back then and could only estimate the depth of a submarine, not give its exact depth and it could only get so close. Depth charges were often set to an estimated depth and often exploded at an estimated depth based on earlier readings and estimations and exploded at a pre-determined depth, which enabled them to escape because they could hear the depth charge explosion and dive deeper and a destroyer’s screw noise or propeller noise often obscured sonar readings because the screws created noise that often hid the submarine contact. The screws of the destroyer often obscured contacts.
http://uboat.net/history/aircraft_losses.htm
Many aircraft were shot down by enemy submarines during the war. Submarines did indeed fire back at air units. The Germans even had an order that said that U-boats had to shoot back at aircraft.
http://uboat.net/history/fight_back_order.htmIn return the U-boats shot down at least 28 aircraft (with many more severely damaged). This is important since many works on the subject give the impression that the RAF victory over the bay in 1943 had been almost free.
U-155 14 Jun 1943 Aircraft attack, aircraft shot down:
Polish Mosquito HJ648 (307 Sqdn RAF/B, pilot S/L S. Szablowski)At 09.29 hours, four Mosquito aircraft (3 from 307 Polish Sqdn RAF and 1 from 410 Sqdn RCAF) attacked a group of 5 outbound boats (U-68, U-155, U-159, U-415 and U-634) in the Bay of Biscay. The leading Mosquito first strafed U-68 and then U-155, but its port engine stopped after being hit by AA fire and the aircraft was forced to make a belly landing back at the base in Predannack. A second Mosquito, piloted by F/O J. Pelka, attacked too but its guns did not fire and the remaining aircraft did not attack due to the intense AA fire.
Many aircraft were shot down by submarines during World War II. The idea that submarines cannot fire at air units is completely wrong and ridiculous because subs had AA guns to shoot back at aircraft and often did shoot down and fire at air units.
http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ships/3255.html
An example of how a U-boat slipped through the screen of destroyers and sank the carrier, USS Block Island.
On 29 May 1944, U-549 slipped undetected through the screen of the hunter-killer group TG 21.11, formed around the USS Block Island (CVE 21) and fired at 20.13 hours three T-3 torpedoes on the carrier, one or two of them struck and caused her to sink northeast of Canary Islands.U-boats slipped through destroyers undetected. Destroyers usually responded when a ship was hit or a torpedo was fired from a submarine, detected by the ship’s sonar.
I am going to make it so that only a destroyer can fire after a submarine does its first-shot attack.
No other naval units, other than a destroyer, may fire back at a submarine after its first-shot attack.
Destroyers can still be selected as casualties after a submarine’s first shot attack. After they are hit and after they’ve rolled, they are sunk and removed from play, along with any other vessels hit during a sub’s first shot attack.http://books.google.com/books?id=6z7quhWS-BoC&pg=PA139&lpg=P…
Audacity’s fighters sighted a submarine, 22 miles from the convoy, which is beyond the range of destroyers. The Martlets or Wildcat fighters attacked the submarine with a destroyer present, but the presence of the destroyer did not cause affect the air units ability to prosecute the submarine, nor did the air units have to attack with a destroyer present, even though they did.
My new rule allows for air units to attack submarines regardless of whether or not a destroyer is present. Air units can still attack submarines with a destroyer present.
U-131 fires back, an example of a submarine firing at air units, and shoots down one of the attacking aircraft.A submarine can still submerge if a destroyer attacks with air units present. I will add that too.
Admiral Doenitz wrote.
“The worst feature was the present of the aircraft carrier. Small fast, maneuverable aircraft circled the convoy continuously, so that when it was sighted, it forced the boats were forced to submerge or withdraw. The presence of enemy aircraft also prevented any protracted shadowing or homing procedures by German aircraft. The sinking of the aircraft carrier is therefore of particular importance not only in this case, but in every future convoy action.”
http://books.google.com/books?id=Tzp58htKLkEC&pg=PA65&lpg=PA…
Any carrier aircraft present with a carrier also attack the submarine after its first shot attack.
It goes like this. Submarine fires its first shot attack, then any destroyers that the attacker or defender possesses along with any carrier aircraft attack the submarine. Any ships hit by the submarine are removed from play and any subs hit by the destroyers are also removed from play.
Then all other ships roll their die rolls as if it were normal combat.
**Phases go like this.1. Attacking/defending submarines fire first (first-shot attacks). Any of the attacker’s or defender’s destroyers or air units roll next after the submarine conducts its first-shot. Any casualties incurred from these moves are removed from play. Air units may be selected as casualties, as the submarine can shoot back at air units and is using its AA guns to protect itself from aerial attack.
Ships other than destroyers may be selected as casualties. Any ships or air units hit are removed from play.
2. All other naval units that survived the first-shot attacks or depth charge attacks on the submarines roll as if it were regular combat.
3. Repeat as necessary until A. the submarine submerges or withdraws or B. the attacker’s units are all destroyed or C. The defender’s units are all destroyed or D. Both attacking and defending units are destroyed at the same time.**
Tactical bomber’s attack roll is boosted to a 4 or less when a submarine is present to simulate the use of Focke Wulf Fw 200 Condor aircraft that attacked convoys or ships with U-boats present. Condor maritime patrol aircraft attacked convoys with U-boats present and were such that CAM ships and were a significant threat to convoys that the Royal Navy had to deploy carrier airplanes to stop Condor attacks on convoys. The Condors were a threat to convoys early in the war. Tactical bombers are boosted by a submarine now.
This only applies for the attacker. Tactical bombers are not boosted on defense.A destroyer’s roll is not boosted on defense either. If the defender has a carrier and aircraft and the defender has a destroyer, then the destroyer’s die roll is not boosted to a 3 or less. It is just defending the convoy and or task force anyway.
The destroyer is doing its convoy protection or escort roll. This special technique of the destroyer shall be called a “fleet defense” roll. This fleet defense option is only exercised after a submarine has fired its first-shot attack and incurred any casualties.
In most cases during a convoy attack with destroyers escorting it, the submarine fired first and its stealth capability was not negated, in fact boosted by the fact that the submarine was able to sneak in undetected to the convoy or fleet in question and sink some ships. The submarine’s stealth attack is actually being boosted and/or used to good effect when a destroyer is present. When a submarine attacks ships with a destroyer present, it uses it stealth attacks anyway.
So, the idea that a submarine’s stealth attack can’t be used with a destroyer present goes against the very role and the very way that submarines work in real-life tactics. Destroyer-submarine interaction does not work the way it is presented in the game. Submarines use their stealth attack when destroyers are present, it doesn’t matter if they are because whether or not they are there is irrelevant, to achieve maximum surprise.
A submarine uses its stealth first-shot attack when a destroyer is present in that sea zone to prevent it from being detected and/or blown to bits by the destroyer. The roll afterwards simulates a depth charge attack by destroyers in response to a submarine attack, which is more realistic based on the actual accounts of submariners that attacked convoys during the war and the actual capabilities of a destroyer’s sonar systems.
So, I changed it to better reflect actual real-life capabilities of ASW Anti-Submarine Warfare tactics.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Tzp58htKLkEC&lpg=PA65&ots=P…
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/754134/submarine-destroyer-interaction
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