• There is nothing wrong with the standard 3/3 destroyer, simply assume the piece to represent a small group consisting of cruisers and destroyers. And the battleship piece represents a small group of battleships and cruisers combined.

    The cruisers optional anti-air gun rule is a good idea, but that depends if the amount of AA guns on a unit of cruisers is to match in the same volumne all the AA guns in one territory protecting numerous cities and factories, since you are limited to only one gun per province.

    In short all of this depends on how many actual ships, infantry, tanks, artillery, etc… you think each piece represents. Everyone has different ideas on how many actual units consist of one game piece.


  • @Thunderlord:

    Hi Mr Anderson

    We only used the cruiser,CV and Destroyer rules to start with.

    The Rules worked fairly well but nobody bought battleships just Cruisers,Destroyers and CV…

    You didn’t buy subs? Why, they are the best cannon fodder one can get? You should try to use the Convoy Rule as well!

    @Thunderlord:

    Maybe you could beef up the Battleship I’m only looking at it from a game balance point of view. I Know it was cheaper but the Anti aircraft fire for cruisers is great…

    Hmmm… I find the same thing happening when I play tested these rules, no BBs! A quick fix would be an opening fire ability for BBs in conjunction with an inability to hit subs, meaning subs can never be hit by BBs. That is goody goody and the 24 IPC price for a BB would be acceptable.

    I am right now trying to fish out the best ideas of mine. I would like you to try the following rules and let me know how it all came out. Thank you in advance of your reply.

    Shore Bombardment
    In an amphibious assault, your destroyers may like battleships make a support shot on amphibious assaults on a 2. Each destroyer fires once during the Conduct Opening Fire step against enemy land units in the territory being attacked (the enemy units do not fire back). A destroyer cannot conduct shore bombardment if it was involved in a sea combat prior the amphibious assault. In order to get a free shore shot one must land two land units for each shore shot, apply to both battleships and destroyers.

    Heavy Artillery (replace Combined Bombardment)
    Your artillery are now heavy artillery. They attack on a 3.

    Convoy Raids
    The U.K, U.S. and Japanese players are susceptible to supply line interdiction. This rule imply that enemy submarines may conduct an economic attack against the supply lines (sea zones) adjacent to any of these nations industrial complex to “sink” IPCs. On the U.K, U.S. and Japanese players collect income phase, the player must subtract 2 IPCs to the bank for each enemy submarine within 1 sea zone of an industrial complex contolled by respective nation. For each enemy submarine within 2 sea zones of an industrial complex, the player must subtract 1 IPC. Any submarine that became submerged during the subjected players turn’s conduct combat phase, does not cause any economic loss. Multiple submarines may affect a single industrial complex, but the maximum combined loss can be no more than the territory’s (containting the industrial complex) income value. An individual submarine may only affect one industrial complex during each turn, but can affect multiple industrial complexes each round (i.e. one industrial complex per player).

    Air Supremacy
    Fighters can support infantry attacks and artillery defense if no enemy fighters are present. Air supremacy increases your infantry’s attack to 2 or your artillery’s defense to 3. Each infantry or artillery must be matched one-for-one with a supporting fighter.


  • Submarines should never be cannon fodder. IN fact Submarines should only participate in one round of combat and not engage in multy surface combat actions. Their was never any major naval actions where submarines were used in a major role in such combat. They are basically sinkers of commerce ships. They participated as advance screening for fleet movements to locate and possibly sink a few ships that were passing thru the area, but a sub travels at 7 knots underwater and a cruiser is at 34 knots and a battleship is 25-32 knots. Thats why the other chap in an earlier thread bought those destroyers and stopped buying battleships. At your 3/3 values they are a better buy. The trick was to make all the ships equally important. The solution was to bring battleships in at 20 IPC, destroyers kept back at 2/2 costing 8 IPC and the new cruiser unit at 3/3 costing 14 IPC ( taking two hits to sink). You other people should playtest these values as i have and you will notice that all the naval units have equal values and equal justifications for buying them.

    So again the values:

    Battleship 4/4/2/cost 20 (takes two hits, shore bombard at 4)
    Cruiser 3/3/3/cost 14 (takes two hits, shore bombard at 3)
    Destroyer 2/2 2 cost 8 (takes one hit, shore bombard at 2)
    Carrier 1/3/3/cost 14 ( takes one hit, carries two planes)

    In order to get a free shore shot you must land 2 infantry for each shore shot. So if you got to land 5 infantry in your 5th invasion of France in as many turns, you can only count on 2 ships supporting it. Their is nothing more unrealistic on this green earth as that stupid lame rule where you have 3 battleships supporting one infantry, killing 3 german infantry and retaking france 20 times in a game. That has to end and these rules end that crap. Each infantry unit equals a corps level organization which is basically  3-5 divisions or about 70,000 men… Their is no way any collection of warships of all the worlds navies could destroy that many human lives, allowing an unopposed invasion by a small force of soldiers with no equipment. An invasion was a major undertaking and not something to just “DO” every turn just to grap IPC’s

    That brings up another problem…. Income should only be counted at the start of your turn… think about this concept!  its your second stage into the advanced system of playing a better game.


  • @Imperious:

    Submarines should never be cannon fodder. IN fact Submarines should only participate in one round of combat and not engage in multy surface combat actions. Their was never any major naval actions where submarines were used in a major role in such combat. They are basically sinkers of commerce ships. They participated as advance screening for fleet movements to locate and possibly sink a few ships that were passing thru the area, but a sub travels at 7 knots underwater and a cruiser is at 34 knots and a battleship is 25-32 knots. Thats why the other chap in an earlier thread bought those destroyers and stopped buying battleships. At your 3/3 values they are a better buy. The trick was to make all the ships equally important. The solution was to bring battleships in at 20 IPC, destroyers kept back at 2/2 costing 8 IPC and the new cruiser unit at 3/3 costing 14 IPC ( taking two hits to sink). You other people should playtest these values as i have and you will notice that all the naval units have equal values and equal justifications for buying them.

    So again the values:

    Battleship 4/4/2/cost 20 (takes two hits, shore bombard at 4)
    Cruiser 3/3/3/cost 14 (takes two hits, shore bombard at 3)
    Destroyer 2/2 2 cost 8 (takes one hit, shore bombard at 2)
    Carrier 1/3/3/cost 14 ( takes one hit, carries two planes)

    In order to get a free shore shot you must land 2 infantry for each shore shot. So if you got to land 5 infantry in your 5th invasion of France in as many turns, you can only count on 2 ships supporting it. Their is nothing more unrealistic on this green earth as that stupid lame rule where you have 3 battleships supporting one infantry, killing 3 german infantry and retaking france 20 times in a game. That has to end and these rules end that crap. Each infantry unit equals a corps level organization which is basically  3-5 divisions or about 70,000 men… Their is no way any collection of warships of all the worlds navies could destroy that many human lives, allowing an unopposed invasion by a small force of soldiers with no equipment. An invasion was a major undertaking and not something to just “DO” every turn just to grap IPC’s

    That brings up another problem…. Income should only be counted at the start of your turn… think about this concept!  its your second stage into the advanced system of playing a better game.

    I agree upon the shore bombardment and like it a lot your way: “In order to get a free shore shot you must land 2 infantry for each shore shot”!
    The fact that one get the IPCs in the end of each turn is because it favors offens, we dont wont a static game! How ever your opinion about is right from a logical point of view, but I think the game should favor attack (Axis) in the way it does! I need to think about more befor ethe last word is said! ;-)


  • Under the cost basis of counting the money before you play your turn here are the advantages:

    1. you take territories you plan on holding… no more stupid quick steals of land for cash. That makes for a silly game rather than a positional one.
    2. It will end that endless mindless attacks on France et al.
    3. It makes each move more important to plan out because you are more concentrated on defending as well as attack.
    4. have to abort will finish latter…

  • With Atlantic Wall and Fortress Europe advantages, Vichy France wont fall unless the allies bring in a huge amphibious force. This assumes of course that the Nazi player doesn’t leave the western front open, as they did in the real war when Hitler sent all his Panzer divisions crashing into Poland, then immediately rushed back to France. (No smart German player will leave a 6 IPC valued province ripe for picking)


  • Yes thats correct, but any real invasion of France should be the real deal, and not so many “Dieppe” raids on Le harve, whehn the allies land it should be a thunderclap of force from the clouds. A stupid German player deserves to lose it if he goes cheap on it, and problably the is game is basically over anyway because that creates positional imbalances for a next few turns, which may lead to defeat.


  • Hi Chaps

    Just thought I would answer why I didn’t buy Subs
    I was the UK and had a IC in India so I bought more tanks and fighters
    Some players bought subs mainly Germany.

    I have another Idea for you.

    IC Fighter defense rule.

    If you have fighters on a province with an IC then they my participate in Navel defense on any adjacent sea zone.
    What do you think.

    Cheers
    Rob


  • I like the idea of fighters being able to assist an adjacent territory in a battle or SBR interception.

    Only I think it’s more realistic to limit land based fighters to only being able to assist an adjacent LAND based territory.  Same goes for sea based fighters being limited to supporting an adjacent SEA territory only.


  • Excellent … but we are getting of ourselves…I will post some ideas along these lines.


  • Air Interception of Air Units
    Defending fighters may intercept and AA guns may fire at moving air units leaving the airspace of the defender’s territory or sea zone. Defending fighters hit on a die roll of 2 or less (1 for torpedo and/or dive bombers and 3 or less for jet fighters); the moving air units hit on a die roll of 1. One round of air interception combat occurs in the defender’s territory or sea zone.

    Coastal Defense
    During Naval Combat Resolution, defending air units (including bombers) may move to an adjacent sea zone to participate in the defense of friendly naval units being attacked, or where defending naval units are conducting combat against enemy naval units that have ended their movement in the defender’s sea zone (including during amphibious assaults). Movement of these units takes one full combat round before they can be used. (Example: On round one, the defending player announces that he will dispatch fighters and on round two they are used in combat). At the end of naval combat resolution, surviving coastal defense air units must return to their original land territory, if possible.
        Air units may provide coastal defense even if the land territory they are from is under attack.  They may provide coastal defense, defend the land territory, or provide strategic air defense; they may not do more than one.  At the end of combat resolution, if the territory a defending air unit flew from is captured, the air unit must fly to the closest friendly territory within its flight range. If no friendly territory is available, the defending air unit is eliminated.

    Strategic Bombing
    Bombers may perform strategic bombing against enemy ICs within their range. Strategic bombers may be intercepted by defending fighters and attacked by strategic air defense. Each bomber that survives may roll one die; this is the number of IP that the IC is reduced by during the owning country’s next turn. An IC may lose more IP than its printed value.

    Fighter Escort
    Fighters may accompany moving bombers or naval units as far as their range allows them and participate in air interception combat, but they may only enter one sea zone to the target territory or sea zone and one sea zone when returning from the target territory. If intercepted, fighter escorts and bombers hit on a die roll of 1. Escorting fighters may escort either naval units or bombers (not both) and may not attack naval units or a territory during the same turn they escort bombers or naval units.

    Strategic Air Defense
    Directly before strategic bombers roll for damage on an IC, defending fighters and AA guns in the territory may defend against bomber (and their escorts, if any) with one round of combat. Defending AA guns have a first-shot attack against each attacking air unit. The strategic bombers and their escorts can only target defending fighters (and not any ground units). Defending fighters hit on a die roll of 2 or less (1 for torpedo and/or dive bombers and 3 or less for jet fighters); strategic bombers and their escorts hit on a die roll of 1. Any surviving bombers may then bomb the IC.


  • You’ve quoted us with your “bombers shot down 10% of the time” rule. Many bombing raids included fighters in this activity and using all these new rules drastically change it, if you use the 10% rule that is.


  • Yes, well at least its not as bad as 1 out of 6 … ouch. The worst is when a tranny kills the bomber, which means every bomber Germany had during the war was shot down by a liberty ship carrying tea bags to england.I just want to throw the board out of my window after that.

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