What IF canada stayed out of the war(IF)


  • @FieldMarshalGames:

    @Octospire:

    Canada proving 7-8% of manpower and industrial capacity doesnt seem like much but in 1940 there was no U.S involvement in the war or the Soviet Union so Canada’s share of manpower and resources would of been far greater than 7 or 8%.

    Thanks Octospire for joining the discussion and for your input.  This is the point I was trying to make.  In the overall conflict 1939-45 it is true that Canada only contributed 7-8% of manpower and industrial capacity.  But in the Early stages of the European conflict it was a much higher percentage when only Great Britain and Canada were fighting the Battle of the Atlantic, and the Air war over the UK.  This contribution at this crucial time was enough to keep the British in the “game”.

    Great point also about the equally important role of South Africa and ANZAC troops in the African campaign.

    So arguably, the Allies could have lost the war in 39-40 “IF Canada stayed out of the war”.

    Aside: This has been a really good discussion.  We should have more on this board like this!

    just reading up on this topic(been busy) thanks FMG i guess i know how to star a good topic.;)


  • @Zhukov_2011:

    Most or all of the illegal killing within Germany would likely have ended once the British food blockade had been lifted. Hitler would eventually have died, and would likely have been replaced with a milder man.

    Revisionist garbage, Kurt. Where do you get this stuff from?

    One day me and you will go to the Holocaust Museum in D.C. with lots of duct tape wrapped around your mouth and we’re going to learn a few things about what happened inside Nazi-controlled Europe.

    In my initial post, I made three separate factual claims or implications.

    1. That a British (and later an Anglo-American) food blockade had existed during WWII.

    2. That this food blockade resulted in a severe food crisis within Germany.

    3. That a proximate cause of the decision to exterminate the Jews was the desire to reduce pressure on the food supply.

    If you would like me to support some or all of these claims, I’ll be happy to do so. I’ll also be happy to avoid using sources any reasonable person might consider “revisionist.”

    That being said, I find your above-quoted response devoid of substance. Other than using emotion-laden words or phrases like “revisionist,” “Holocaust Museum,” and “lots of duct tape wrapped around your mouth,” it contributes nothing to the discussion; and certainly not to anyone’s search for accurate information about the three points listed above.


  • @KurtGodel7:

    In my initial post, I made three separate factual claims or implications.

    1. That a proximate cause of the decision to exterminate the Jews was the desire to reduce pressure on the food supply.

    If you would like me to support some or all of these claims, I’ll be happy to do so. I’ll also be happy to avoid using sources any reasonable person might consider “revisionist.”

    That being said, I find your above-quoted response devoid of substance. Other than using emotion-laden words or phrases like “revisionist,” “Holocaust Museum,” and “lots of duct tape wrapped around your mouth,” it contributes nothing to the discussion; and certainly not to anyone’s search for accurate information about the three points listed above.

    Yeah, number three up there is the one I have a problem with. Please, humor me with “facts” and “sources” to support this point. You are right, my post was without substance but how much substance should one attribute to comments like, “The Jews were killed because the Germans were hungry?” You mean to tell me the extermination of Europe’s Jews had little or nothing to do with Hitler’s twisted and racial ideology that strived to wipe out all “impurities” from the “master race?”

    To be honest, I’d rather not argue this subject with you because, in my opinion, you do not have a firm grasp of the horror that occurred in Nazi-occupied Europe or you willfully choose to ignore all the evidence. Besides, Nazi depravities in WWII is a subject that doesn’t need to be argued. Why would I argue that the Earth revolves around the Sun when we know it to be fact?

    To be honest, Kurt, I used to think like you that those nasty Germans couldn’t have been all that bad. But then I started reading and discovered just how uninformed I was.

    But if you want to start a thread where you justify or explain why Nazi Germany killed millions of Jews, and why German soldiers were forced to shoot up busses filled with school children and why everything they did is OK  because the Allies made them do it, please be my guest. Let’s not hijack this thread anymore.

  • '12

    Kurt, you might as well say the Jews were killed because  English people have this stupid way about them,the silly bastards use the word day to end every day of the week…monDAY, tuesDAY, sunDAY.  And because the allies use the word DAY, the Jews had to be killed, its only logical right…


  • First of all most the GERMANS didn’t kill the Jews. The NAZIS did. Also only Nazis killed the Jews not the Wehrmacht. They were two completely different organizations.


  • @Zhukov_2011:

    @KurtGodel7:

    1. That a proximate cause of the decision to exterminate the Jews was the desire to reduce pressure on the food supply.

    Yeah, number three up there is the one I have a problem with. Please, humor me with “facts” and “sources” to support this point.

    Prior to the start of WWII, Hitler had envisioned solving the so-called “Jewish problem” by forcibly shipping Europe’s Jews to Madagascar. Putting the plan into effect would have required victory over the Allies, because Britain had refused to allow large numbers of Jews to immigrate to Palestine or its other colonies. Prior to the British adoption of the White Paper of 1939, “Jewish migration [out of Germany] was impeded by Nazi restrictions on the transfer of finances abroad (departing Jews had to abandon their property), but the Jewish Agency was able to negotiate an agreement allowing Jews resident in Germany to buy German goods for export to Palestine thus circumventing the restrictions.”

    That mechanism is explained in more detail in Adam Tooze’s excellent work, The Wages of Destruction. The book has been praised by The Times (London), The Boston Globe, Financial Times, The Wall Street Journal, The New York Sun, and other major media outlets. On pages 89 - 90, Tooze writes,


    The Haavara Transfer was designed to take advantage of this loophole. The scheme operated by allowing German Jews to make payments into a fund in Berlin in exchange for certificates crediting them with sufficient Palestinian pounds to allow them to obtain the coveted visa. Hanotea for its part used the funds deposited in Berlin to buy German goods for export to Palestine. The emigrants were reimbursed in Palestinian pounds when the German goods were sold to Jewish or Arab customers. In effect, the arrangement ensured that every Reichsmark of capital exported by a German-Jewish emigrant was matched by a compensating export order. As the Reichsbank tightened its grip on its foreign exchange reserves, Haavara became, despite the tiny size of the Mandate economy, one of the most efficient means for Jews to export capital from Germany. In total, 50,000 people, one-tenth of the German-Jewish population in 1933, were able to use this scheme to make good their escape. . . . [Jews who emigrated under this scheme] paid a discount of only 35 per cent, at a time when the majority of Jewish emigrants were able to rescue only a tiny fraction of their wealth.


    Muslim resistance to the above plan inspired Britain to adopt the White Paper of 1939, under which further Jewish immigration into Palestine was severely restricted. Therefore, the Nazi regime had to postpone its efforts to solve the so-called “Jewish problem” via further emigration out of Europe.

    Tooze also describes the German food supply.

    pp. 418-419


    After 1939 the supply of food in Western Europe was no less constrained than the supply of coal. . . . Grain imports in the late 1930s had run at the rate of more than 7 million tons per annum mostly from Argentina and Canada. These sources of supply were closed off by the British blockade. . . . By the summer of 1940, Germany was facing a Europe-wide agricultural crisis. . . . By 1941 there were already signs of mounting discontent due to the inadequate food supply. In Belgium and France, the official ration allocated to ‘normal consumers’ of as little as 1,300 calories per day, was an open invitation to resort to the black market.


    p. 539


    When the order to ship large numbers of Eastern European workers to Germany was first given, Backe protested vigorously. The 400,000 Soviet prisoners of war already in Germany were more than he could provide for. . . . If the Russians were to be given meat, they would have to be supplied at the expense of the German population.


    p 541


    Backe was in an impossible position. The Fuehrer had demanded more workers. Gauleiter Sauckel was dedicated to delivering them. Hitler and Sauckel now demanded that the workers be fed, which was clearly a necessity if they were to be productive. And yet, given the level of grain stocks, Backe was unable to meet this demand.


    p. 542


    Entire groups were to be excluded from the food supply, most notably the Jews. As Goebbels noted in his diary, the new regime would be based on the principle that before Germany starved ‘it would be the turn of a number of other peoples.’


    pp. 544 - 545


    Faced with Germany’s food shortage in 1942, Backe went much further. He now demanded that the Governor General should reverse the flow. Rather than receive food supplements from Germany, the General Government [of Poland] was to make sizable food deliveries. . . . Backe predicated his demands on the elimination of Polish Jews from the food chain. . . . Eliminating the Jews would . . . reduce the number of people that needed feeding.


    p. 549


    By the end of August 1942, this extraordinary series of measures spread a palpable mood of relief throughout Berlin. Backe, Himmler, and Goering had staved off a disastrous downward spiral in the food supply.



  • And that relates to Canada how?


  • sorry IL but Zhukov has a way of getting off topic. We’'ll keep it on Canada for now on.


  • a) if the gremans didnt kill the the jews therd have 2.~ million ward working soldiers at there command.
    b) back on to pioc (if possible)

  • '12

    Making excuses why Nazis did bad things is a losing argument no matter how eloquent you think you are being.  Whatever reason you think you have, subjecting one minority group for special treatment versus others is evil.  If there was a food problem the entire population needs to bare the brunt or war should not have been entered into.  I seriously doubt that if in 1944 or any year for that matter….that if the allies had rushed food to the germans that the Nazis would have stopped killing the jews. I am not saying anyone here is a douche, but those who make excuses for what the nazis (Nazis NOT germans) did are douches.  So I seriously hope nobody here is making excuses for Nazis because I do think we have some really bright lights at this site.


  • Making excuses why Nazis did bad things is a losing argument no matter how eloquent you think you are being.

    Good point, MrMalachi. Acknowledging Nazi atrocities, even if some incidents of those atrocities are overstated, isn’t just about admonishing the Germans. It’s about what drives some groups of people to commit horrific acts in the name of something, and how we can try to prevent that from happening again, or at least catch the warning signs early.

    Kurt wrote:

    That mechanism is explained in more detail in Adam Tooze’s excellent work, The Wages of Destruction. The book has been praised by The Times (London), The Boston Globe, Financial Times, The Wall Street Journal, The New York Sun, and other major media outlets. On pages 89 - 90, Tooze writes,

    Fantastic source, but no where does it support your claim that the food blockade was a “proximate cause” for the killing of millions of Jews (as well as millions of Poles, Ukrainians, and other European ethnic/national groups) or that without the blockade, the Nazis would have embraced Europe’s Jewish population. I’m sure Tooze would balk at such a correlation to his excellent book. He analyzes the Nazi perspective that justified - in Nazi eyes - mass killings of certain groups, but he does not condone those actions, let alone blame the Allies for those killings.
    Again, you try to shift blame to the UK because they did not provide homes for the European Jews (you do realize there were millions and millions of Jews in Europe?). What kind of argument is that? Hitler’s desire to ship the Jewish population to Madagascar wasn’t a noble one, wouldn’t you agree?
    Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re suggesting Nazi Germany was forced to exterminate and execute millions of innocent people becuase:
    A) the Allied blockade caused a food shortage, and some groups received better food than others
    B) the UK and whoever else wouldn’t accept the millions of Jewish refuges, and finally:
    C) Hitler wasn’t able to ship the Jewish population to Madagascar, which we all know is just such a wonderful resort and would have made a fantastic place for millions of disposed and penniless people to live. :roll:

    Am I and MrMalachi the only ones who call BS on these nonsensical arguments?  This isn’t just some interesting conspiracy theory, like those who believe English pilots bombed Pearl Harbor to draw the U.S. into the war. These are rather some very serious misconceptions.

    And Jesus, Cminke, do you not own a dictionary?

    Mods, is it possible to have this topic split into another thread, maybe named something like “WTF, This is ridiculous”?


  • GUYS! Get back on Canada or IL is gonna shut this topic down! Alright? Good play nice.


  • No more posts about whatever this topic became. Start a new thread.


  • @Zhukov_2011:

    Mods, is it possible to have this topic split into another thread… ?

    That way we don’t have to argue this BS all over again. Besides, I feel a mile-long series of comments and quotes from Kurt coming our way, and we  wouldn’t want him to put it in the wrong thread.


  • Zhukov shut your mouth and quit posting here for your own good before your deleted. Sorry IL we won’t post anymore unless it’s on Canda. By the way can I be your evil sidekick  :-D  :evil:


  • yah right you wish only a candain are evil enougf to be his sidekick


  • Oh, yessir Mister Ryan, I donts want to be kicked off this here forum, I just learnin so much, especially from you Mister Ryan!

    Yessir, Mister Ryan, I play nice from here on. I just donts know what I’d do if dey got rid ‘a me! That postin’ off topic stuff, good Lord, that’s just the devil.

    Yessir, Mister Ryan, maybe you put in a good word to the masters for me and maybe dey keep me ‘round sum more! Maybe dey let me be a grovellin’ sidekick too?


  • IL can we get this shut down? There are about a dozen posts just like this dribble.

  • '12

    I have no problem with a moderator trying to keep the topic….on topic.  Ryan, you are sounding like a teachers pet, it does not become you.


  • @Pvt.Ryan:

    IL can we get this shut down? There are about a dozen posts just like this dribble.

    but we are allowed to talk off topic… just as long as we dont change the whole thread.

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