FMG COMBAT UNITS - Rules: AIR TRANSPORT

[crusaderiv]

air transport cant be cheaper than 10 IPC or people will just buy them and ignore naval transports.
Your point make no sense here because Italian player didn’t have enough money to buid infantry and air Transport at the same time.
I tested both ways ( lower or higer air transport price) and there was no problem with 1 5 IPC air transport.
In fact, if you are the Italian player and choose to build a lot air transport and ignore naval ships.
Good…the end is near my friend.
As UK player, I’ll be happy top invade Italy defended by your air transport fleet!

But at the same time players will buy them like Italy when they lose their fleet they can still reinforce Lybia with 2 infantry in NCM, or 1 in combat.
That’s why only 1 infantry per planes is enough. It will be hard for the Italian player to reinforce a lot.
And by the way, Italian/Germany used planes to reinforce their position during the Tunisia campain! (And they lose a lot of air transport)

Your point makes no sence if you claim the German player will buy them to invade England,
I wrote that german player cannot only used air transport to invade england even with a 5 IPC air transport because he will need more than that to invade England.
I thought my point was clear.

[Imperious Leader]

air transport cant be cheaper than 10 IPC or people will just buy them and ignore naval transports.
Your point make no sense here because Italian player didn’t have enough money to buid infantry and air Transport at the same time.
I tested both ways ( lower or higer air transport price) and there was no problem with 1 5 IPC air transport.
In fact, if you are the Italian player and choose to build a lot air transport and ignore naval ships.
Good…the end is near my friend.
As UK player, I’ll be happy top invade Italy defended by your air transport fleet!

Then we should just make everything cheaper than 10 IPC …so Italy can buy them?  You make the point that Italy can’t afford them at 10 IPC, but at the same time by making this same claim to any plane or most naval units they cant buy them either. The solution is NOT to imbalance the game.

At 5 IPC US player can buy 10 and land 10 infantry each turn by staging infantry in UK and don’t need to buy any fleet to protect them. That is ridiculous!  It would be cheaper to just buy Air Transports and not even have fleets. Heck on G1 Germany can buy enough to invade uk even easier than before. Sorry but 5 IPC is laughable.

But at the same time players will buy them like Italy when they lose their fleet they can still reinforce Lybia with 2 infantry in NCM, or 1 in combat.
That’s why only 1 infantry per planes is enough. It will be hard for the Italian player to reinforce a lot.
And by the way, Italian/Germany used planes to reinforce their position during the Tunisia campain! (And they lose a lot of air transport)

Yes they did, but at 5 IPC they would be able to send alot more this way. Under the new setup Italy along with other nations start with one air transport, they really should not have any greater capability than that.

Your point makes no sence if you claim the German player will buy them to invade England,
I wrote that german player cannot only used air transport to invade england even with a 5 IPC air transport because he will need more than that to invade England.
I thought my point was clear.

So at 5 IPC invading England will be easier than invading UK with 10 IPC air transports. So i guess your real point is you like that idea. You also prefer buying air transports to naval transports because at 5 IPC you ruined the balance of that piece because you got a double ranged unit for 2 IPC less.

Your 5 IPC idea brings nothing less than Starship Troopers to the game with each nation buying them in bulk and ignoring naval transport.

Naval transport 7 IPC moves 2, carries 2 infantry
Starship Trooper transport 5 IPC moves 4 carries 1 infantry

Gee which would you prefer?

for 15 IPC you can bring 3 infantry 4 spaces, or spend 14 IPC and bring 4 Infantry 2 spaces.

I guess you now see what the problem is with 5 IPC Air transports?

[crusaderiv]

At 5 IPC US player can buy 10 and land 10 infantry each turn by staging infantry in UK and don’t need to buy any fleet to protect them. That is ridiculous!  It would be cheaper to just buy Air Transports and not even have fleets. Heck on G1 Germany can buy enough to invade uk even easier than before. Sorry but 5 IPC is laughable.

Air transport can only drop paratrooper during combat move no infantry.
Air transport can transport infantry and paratroppers during non combat move.
Also there a a limit of 5 paratroopers (special unit) per country (Germany,USSR, Uk, USA and Japan)
2 for Italy.
So this way it’s not ridiculous and not laughable.

Your 5 IPC idea brings nothing less than Starship Troopers to the game with each nation buying them in bulk and ignoring naval transport.
Long time ago, I understood the control of the sea importance.
So no, I don’t ignore naval transport because anyway you can’t transport tank with air transport!!!
If you used the reinforcement by air startegy it’s because you lose the control of the sea and for Italian player it’s not a bad news!!!

I guess you now see what the problem is with 5 IPC Air transports?
So now I guess you understand that 5 IPC air transport is not a problem?

[Imperious Leader]

Air transport can only drop paratrooper during combat move no infantry.
Air transport can transport infantry and paratroopers during non combat move.
Also there a a limit of 5 paratroopers (special unit) per country (Germany,USSR, Uk, USA and Japan)
2 for Italy.
So this way it’s not ridiculous and not laughable.

Oh i see you invent new rules as we go along in this. Arbitrary rules where you limit the number of units you can drop are not AA. The price alone should justify the number of builds because no other unit is limited in any manner. To limit builds because you made the cost too cheap is not Axis and Allies. It is silly Xeno style rules.

Your 5 IPC idea brings nothing less than Starship Troopers to the game with each nation buying them in bulk and ignoring naval transport.
Long time ago, I understood the control of the sea importance.
So no, I don’t ignore naval transport because anyway you can’t transport tank with air transport!!!
If you used the reinforcement by air startegy it’s because you lose the control of the sea and for Italian player it’s not a bad news!!!

Most people just transport infantry BTW. A German sealion will contain mostly infantry and all her planes. Italy cant really afford tanks and will shuck infantry to Africa. The Japanese will take Russia with dropping 5 of these each turn behind Soviet lines. THey will also due to the 4 space reach constantly invade Alaska, Australia and other spaces just because they now got cheap air planes that bring infantry 4 spaces for 5 IPC each.  Your often cited example of Italy and Germany would have them using Air transports to invade UK, and use a few naval transports for the armor. Italy also usually buys infantry so your point is moot. The US player will max out air transport every turn and land the maximum each turn, which is ahistorical. Japan will do the same against Russia and quickly block out the Russians from the border, while taking the interior.

I guess you now see what the problem is with 5 IPC Air transports?
So now I guess you understand that 5 IPC air transport is not a problem?

Now you see that artificially inventing a number of 5 out of thin air as an upper build limit is not axis and allies? It reflects nothing in terms of capabilities of the nations involved. Its just an invented rule you just made up to cover the fact that you made air transport ridiculously cheap.

If they are 10 IPC the nations will buy them sparingly, each player will start with one in the setup. Thats all you need.

[crusaderiv]

The price alone should justify the number of builds because no other unit is limited in any manner. To limit builds because you made the cost too cheap is not Axis and Allies. It is silly Xeno style rules.
Oh I see…so you can build 12 paratroopers and so for you is historical?
Special units like paratroopers must have limits

The Japanese will take Russia with dropping 5 of these each turn behind Soviet lines. THey will also due to the 4 space reach constantly invade Alaska, Australia and other spaces just because they now got cheap air planes that bring infantry 4 spaces for 5 IPC each.  Your often cited example of Italy and Germany would have them using Air transports to invade UK, and use a few naval transports for the armor. Italy also usually buys infantry so your point is moot. The US player will max out air transport every turn and land the maximum each turn, which is ahistorical. Japan will do the same against Russia and quickly block out the Russians from the border, while taking the interior.

The limit is 5 paratroopers on the gameboard not each turn!!!
Air transport cannot land in the same territory as paratroopers.
They must return to their base or land on a friendly zone so at least 2 spaces to drop and 2 toeturn.
We play over 15 games like this and no one used air transport as you mentionned.
You know what? because good player will see this poor strategy and is going to laugh.
Build a lot of air transport and paratroopers, no more money to build anything else!!
Wow…I’m amaze!!!

Now you see that artificially inventing a number of 5 out of thin air as an upper build limit is not axis and allies? It reflects nothing in terms of capabilities of the nations involved. Its just an invented rule you just made up to cover the fact that you made air transport ridiculously cheap.

Before to say anythnig in the air…just try it.
You’re jealous because you’re not the only one has to invent ridiculous rules… :evil:

[Imperious Leader]

The price alone should justify the number of builds because no other unit is limited in any manner. To limit builds because you made the cost too cheap is not Axis and Allies. It is silly Xeno style rules.
Oh I see…so you can build 12 paratroopers and so for you is historical?
Special units like paratroopers must have limits

If you did that and spent 12 X 10 or 120 IPC to build that nonsense, you would have lost the game. Thats why you make them refect their ability, so the economics will take care of the ‘historical’

If you made 5 IPC battleships, every nation will always have 5 battleships. But this is not AA or historical either. The PRICE justifies the economics of the buy, not the Xeno rules or artificial limits because they invented a game breaker

The Japanese will take Russia with dropping 5 of these each turn behind Soviet lines. THey will also due to the 4 space reach constantly invade Alaska, Australia and other spaces just because they now got cheap air planes that bring infantry 4 spaces for 5 IPC each.  Your often cited example of Italy and Germany would have them using Air transports to invade UK, and use a few naval transports for the armor. Italy also usually buys infantry so your point is moot. The US player will max out air transport every turn and land the maximum each turn, which is ahistorical. Japan will do the same against Russia and quickly block out the Russians from the border, while taking the interior.

The limit is 5 paratroopers on the gameboard not each turn!!!
Air transport cannot land in the same territory as paratroopers.
They must return to their base or land on a friendly zone so at least 2 spaces to drop and 2 toeturn.
We play over 15 games like this and no one used air transport as you mentionned.

Thats what i am saying, every turn each player will have 5 of these 5 IPC air transports and attack some NEW PLACE WITH 5 more infantry EACH TURN.  5 different places with one infantry each or just one either way the game is broken. Germany lands 5 in Russia, and Italy does the same, both from Romania into Russia. Also, France is 2 spaces from UK.

Also paratroopers are just infantry, not a new unit. The air transport is supposed to support the OOB rules from the game of which paratroopers are just normal infantry. Because YOU have them as specialized units does not mean FMG has them that way. You must take the OOB rules and build the air transport around that. Because it works in some completely different set of house rules and map does not mean it works for AA maps.

You know what? because good player will see this poor strategy and is going to laugh.
Build a lot of air transport and paratroopers, no more money to build anything else!!
Wow…I’m amaze!!!

Or spend 25 IPC to land another 5 infantry 4 spaces away each turn…. poor mans naval transport. You can’t argue that Italy “cant afford them at 10 IPC” then claim at 5 IPC they will have “no money for anything else”

Now you see that artificially inventing a number of 5 out of thin air as an upper build limit is not axis and allies? It reflects nothing in terms of capabilities of the nations involved. Its just an invented rule you just made up to cover the fact that you made air transport ridiculously cheap.

Before to say anythnig in the air…just try it.
You’re jealous because you’re not the only one has to invent ridiculous rules… evil

I just know it wont work. The unit is too cheap and if you start down the road of limiting units, then make the same rule for all pieces…limits on builds… but thats not AA. People dont like Xeno style rules and if they did Xeno would do much better.

[crusaderiv]

If you made 5 IPC battleships, every nation will always have 5 battleships. But this is not AA or historical either. The PRICE justifies the economics of the buy, not the Xeno rules or artificial limits because they invented a game breaker
LOL…a battleship and air transport it’s not the same at all.
I just lower a bit the price of air planes including fighter and that’s not change dramaticaly the games.

I just know it wont work. The unit is too cheap and if you start down the road of limiting units, then make the same rule for all pieces…limits on builds… but thats not AA. People dont like Xeno style rules and if they did Xeno would do much better.

I’m not a fan of Xeno rules either. But a game without limit for special units like paratroopers has no sense.
It’s not because unit is cheap than player will start to use it.
If the price of air transport and let see…the destroyer is the same, it’s ridiculous.
In fact, price of unit must be different between each country anyway.

[Imperious Leader]

In fact, price of unit must be different between each country anyway.

Thats another indication of that Xeno ideas creeping into AA games. Xeno has this concept and all the same concepts that you have brought up.  These rules are no good.

The AA way of doing things is to make the price the same for everyone and not have limits on builds. Thats why the cost needs to be justified at 10 IPC per, since the naval transport is 7 IPC and cant travel nearly as far and require a navy to protect. The air transport can be protected by cheap land units ( advantage) , has double the distance ( advantage) and can be used to effect in one turn ( advantage) the only bad thing is it can only ring one infantry, but at your price of 5 IPC you just buy them in pairs. The only reason why you made up the limit was because you know that people will buy tons of these and turn the game into starship troopers. Thats why the price needs to be 10 IPC and each player starts with one, so poor nations don’t have to buy one to be competitive.

[FieldMarshalGames]

I agree this unit should be more expensive as it does have a lot of advantages.  I would also add that it can only load units from a territory with an Air Base?  So they will not replace transports!

[Imperious Leader]

Yes from an air base, but the distance it must be 4 spaces total. If more than the game has many problems.

If you allow 6 space movement then US will just buy a fleet and buy infantry and shuck 10 men a turn in UK, then Berlin the turn after that.

[crusaderiv]

The only reason why you made up the limit was because you know that people will buy tons of these and turn the game into starship troopers.
You completly wrong. I put a limit on some unit beacause it’s historical. 10 paratroopers from the same country it’s laughable
So if I understand you will buy a cheap piece just because it’s cheap? Even if you don’t need it?.
An air transport more expensive than a naval transport is ridiculous.
Air base is useless…

[Imperious Leader]

The only reason why you made up the limit was because you know that people will buy tons of these and turn the game into starship troopers.

You completly wrong. I put a limit on some unit beacause it’s historical. 10 paratroopers from the same country it’s laughable

I think forcing players into a FIXED limit of 5 is most laughable and more ahistorical as opposed to just letting people buy what the hell they want if they can afford it.  The economics of your model should work themselves out if the price was correct at 10, but at 5 IPC per unit, i will take 20 air transports.

The result? The result is if you just thru away this 5 air transport limit and let people buy what they want you make the most ahistorical game imaginable, which only proves that the only reason you insist on a ceiling of 5 per nation IS BECAUSE YOU KNOW VERY WELL THAT THIS WILL BE GLITCHED AND STARSHIP TROOPERS IS NOT FAR BEHIND.

So if I understand you will buy a cheap piece just because it’s cheap? Even if you don’t need it?.

Because its too cheap for what it does: result every nation will max out at 5 air transports ASAP. Hows that for historical?

If you just make them at 10 IPC this does not occur and you don’t need a max out rule, the economics will not justify it. The proof of this is the value relative to the naval transport. 2 spaces move vs. 4 spaces but with 1/2 the cargo capacity, paying +3 IPC for the extra movement but getting 50% rate of cargo transferred is balanced IMO, except note that i the 10 IPC air transport needs to be able to fly 1 inf in combat or 2 inf in noncombat. If the second part of this is not adopted, the price must go down but not even close to 5 IPC. More like 8 IPC air transport if you can only shuck 1 infantry.

You may ask why or how can an air transport carry only 1 inf in combat but two in NCM?

Easy. When used as Airborne infantry and dropped into combat they carry alot more supplies and equipment. If just being transferred from friendly to friendly area, they just come as they are. Equipment is brought on the train, but in combat operations they need everything with them for the battle.

An air transport more expensive than a naval transport is ridiculous.

Right based on your idea its cheaper and more efficient, which the the greatest knock against your idea… you made it too cheap.

Air base is useless…

This reduces the element of surprise by just having a bomber stage in some undeveloped place on the map ( say a pacific island) and just hoping over to Hawaii or west coast USA.

Now you must establish some base to stage the airborne units, because using the can opener technique, Germany can take a space forward and Italy can airborne and land in this just captured space and glitch the game. Instead, Germany or Italy must leave an AB and if it wants to support the new captured area it must have an air base. Only in combat move you obviously dont need to land on AB, just take off from AB.

[crusaderiv]

IS BECAUSE YOU KNOW VERY WELL THAT THIS WILL BE GLITCHED AND STARSHIP TROOPERS IS NOT FAR BEHIND.
LOL…AND AS I SAID BEFORE, I TESTED IT (OVER 10 GAMES) AND NO ONE MAKE STARSHIP TROOPERS BECAUSE GUYS WHO PLAY WITH ME ARE GOOD PLAYERS
AND THEY UNDERSTAND THAT YOU’LL NEED MORE AIR TRANSPORT TO WIN THE GAME.
Somtimes I believe that you under respect the A&A players.

When used as Airborne infantry and dropped into combat they carry alot more supplies and equipment. If just being transferred from friendly to friendly area, they just come as they are. Equipment is brought on the train, but in combat operations they need everything with them for the battle.
I totaly agree with you but you don’t thnik that 2 infantry per transport is too much?
For you, the value of 1 infantry means what…3 division? = 24 000 men? 18 000 mens?, 12 000?. so 2 infantry = 48 000 men…more less.

Now you must establish some base to stage the airborne units, because using the can opener technique, Germany can take a space forward and Italy can airborne and land in this just captured space and glitch the game. Instead, Germany or Italy must leave an AB and if it wants to support the new captured area it must have an air base. Only in combat move you obviously dont need to land on AB, just take off from AB.

I understand that but it doesn’t change much in the progress of the game.

[Imperious Leader]

IS BECAUSE YOU KNOW VERY WELL THAT THIS WILL BE GLITCHED AND STARSHIP TROOPERS IS NOT FAR BEHIND.
LOL…AND AS I SAID BEFORE, I TESTED IT (OVER 10 GAMES) AND NO ONE MAKE STARSHIP TROOPERS BECAUSE GUYS WHO PLAY WITH ME ARE GOOD PLAYERS
AND THEY UNDERSTAND THAT YOU’LL NEED MORE AIR TRANSPORT TO WIN THE GAME.
Somtimes I believe that you under respect the A&A players.

How can anybody have respect for some limit of 5 air transport planes for every nation based on some notion that “its historical”?

When used as Airborne infantry and dropped into combat they carry alot more supplies and equipment. If just being transferred from friendly to friendly area, they just come as they are. Equipment is brought on the train, but in combat operations they need everything with them for the battle.
I totaly agree with you but you don’t thnik that 2 infantry per transport is too much?
For you, the value of 1 infantry means what…3 division? = 24 000 men? 18 000 mens?, 12 000?. so 2 infantry = 48 000 men…more less.

Airborne unit = corps with all equipment

Air transport of infantry not related to combat is personnel minus equipment.

Now you must establish some base to stage the airborne units, because using the can opener technique, Germany can take a space forward and Italy can airborne and land in this just captured space and glitch the game. Instead, Germany or Italy must leave an AB and if it wants to support the new captured area it must have an air base. Only in combat move you obviously dont need to land on AB, just take off from AB.

I understand that but it doesn’t change much in the progress of the game.

It make a huge difference!!  If you don’t have an air base you cant transport infantry via air transport.  This removes the glitch of some bloke landing a bomber with infantry on some silly undeveloped island then taking Washington or west coast USA, because nobody was looking, which is not historical.

You have to launch from AB

[knp7765]

Here are my ideas on air transports.  It seems we have two basic schools of thought:
1- More expensive with greater abilities:
Cost=10 IPCs, Movement=6 spaces NCM, 4 spaces CM, Load=2 Infantry NCM, 1 paratroop CM,  no attack or defense,  Infantry/paratroop must be loaded at an airbase.
2- Cheaper with lesser abilities:
Cost=7 IPCs, Movement= 4 spaces NCM and CM, Load= 1 infantry or paratroop NCM and CM, no attack or defense,  Infantry/paratroop must be loaded at an airbase.

Either of those options seems great to me.  
As for the cost, I think either is reasonable.  10 should be maximum and 7 should be minimum.  Having air transports cost 5 IPCs is just ludicrous.  That’s cheaper than submarines for crying out loud.  Not to mention it is half the cost of fighters.  Does anybody really think it would cost half as much to build a transport plane than it would a fighter plane?  I sincerely doubt that and I bet if you checked building costs for that time, you would find they were roughly the same, with transports maybe being marginally cheaper.
On Movement, (of course, dependant on final cost) a combat move into a hostile area would be trickier so the range should probably show that.  A NCM is of course easier and more peaceful so they could go farther.  However, if FMG decides on the higher cost and people don’t want to mess with 2 different movements, then we should settle on 5 or 6 spaces for both NCM and CM with the load being the same (1 paratroop CM, 2 infantry NCM).  The load carried would still be different enough to differentiate the abilities of combat vs NCM.
As for using airbases, having troops load at airbases only (CM or NCM) is a really good idea.  If the airbase is functional, of course this will give the transport plane an extra movement point like all other aircraft.  If the airbase is NOT functional, you just lose the extra movement point.  Troops can still be loaded onto air transports for CM and NCM.  As for air transports being used for paratroops in the CM, they should be able to land in any territory you owned at the beginning of your turn just like any other of your aircraft.  They should NOT have to land at an airbase.  That is too restrictive and in most cases would be impossible.  The air transports would still have to fly back to an airbase to be able to pick up more troops which would cost you another turn.  That should be restrictive enough whether we decide on the more expensive/greater abilities version or the cheaper/lesser abilities version.
As for the idea of interceptors and escorts involved with transport planes, I will leave that up to FMG as I am undecided on which would be a better idea.
One other though.  Bob A. Mikelson suggested that since transport planes have not attack/defense value, if a territory is captured that has transport planes then all transport planes are immediately destroyed (similar to the naval tranport rule).  I was wondering why you couldn’t capture enemy transport planes.  One thing about A&A I’ve noticed is that all enemy units in every battle are simply destroyed.  There is no representation of capturing equipment or even taking prisoners.  I know if we tried to incorporate that into every battle, it would make things very complicated and this is already a fairly complex game and seems to be getting moreso with the new units.  However, couldn’t we make an exception in this case?  Perhaps treat enemy transport planes like enemy facilities?  After all, those transport planes are not involved in the battle in this case so couldn’t an invader capture them instead of just destroying them?  Upon a successful invasion, replace them with your own transport plane units?  Just a thought.

[Tall Paul]

Imperious Leader,

I agree with YOUR thoughts concerning Air Transport(n/cm) and Paratroop Drops(cm).

I understand that there were two different schools of thought for a/c range.

FOUR in (combat) paratroop drops,…and SIX in (non-combat) air transport

OR

Four in ALL matters. Which did you end up thinking the best?

“Tall Paul”

[Imperious Leader]

Keep it the same as the game rules for combat movement for airborne, and 6 for NCM transport.

[crusaderiv]

I still with my thought because me and my friend tested the transtport rules.
10 IPc for air transport is too much!
And 6 A/C range is too much.

How can anybody have respect for some limit of 5 air transport planes for every nation based on some notion that “its historical”?
I never wrote that! Air transport Cost 5 IPC not limit.
But yes there’s some limit on some units like panzergrenadier, SS troops and paratroopers because everybody cannot be a special soldier!
that’s historical!!!
Try it before to say anything!

[Tall Paul]

Crusaderiv,

With all due respect,…I believe that if you truly thought it through you would see the wisdom and equity of having the Air Transport units cost TEN I.P.C.s and have a range of FOUR in Combat, and SIX in non-combat.

“Tall Paul”

[Imperious Leader]

Air transport Cost 5 IPC not limit

This is not historical…  Way too cheap. 10 is perfect since the bomber can perform it’s attack mission as well