@Subotai:
This might been seen too harsh, (as of 2009), but don’t forget the psychological matters of WW2, regardless of it being Patton slapping a soldier, or the much more serous aspect of Holocaust…
I don’t really get what you’re saying with this statement. The sentence isn’t grammatical and doesn’t seem to make a point. Are you saying that they should not have tolerated Patton’s personality because of the holocaust? I don’t get it.
To make it short, in WW1 there was no such thing as soldiers suffering PSTD or psychological/psychiatric panic during artillery attacks etc, but in the WW2 we had evolved a little further in our knowledge.
I should not mention the factors of deliberately targeting civilians, which was a major part of WW2, in a discussion of personal deficits and/or character traits of certain commanders and generals in WW2, that was my mistake, but my point is that while in WW1 a soldier panicking was nothing but a coward, but in WW2 this was a psychiatric disorder, hopefully short lasting, but Patton failed to know such issues, and while it’s debatable how serious the slapping incident was, I support the decisions to relieve Patton of service, at least for a while.
@Subotai:
To make it short, in WW1 there was no such thing as soldiers suffering PSTD or psychological/psychiatric panic during artillery attacks etc, but in the WW2 we had evolved a little further in our knowledge.
I should not mention the factors of deliberately targeting civilians, which was a major part of WW2, in a discussion of personal deficits and/or character traits of certain commanders and generals in WW2, that was my mistake, but my point is that while in WW1 a soldier panicking was nothing but a coward, but in WW2 this was a psychiatric disorder, hopefully short lasting, but Patton failed to know such issues, and while it’s debatable how serious the slapping incident was, I support the decisions to relieve Patton of service, at least for a while.
Maybe you’re right, but I consider the soldier slapping incident a character flaw that does not reflect upon his ability as a commander. Like how he thought he was reincarnated.
I don’t see that at all. With Patton the war ends sooner and less people die. Whats more importasnt: The dignity of a shell shocked soldier or a war ending a month sooner?
To tell Patton he cant finish off the war and save lives because he slaps people is ridiculous. Heck he can throw pies in FDR’s face all day or roll him down a steep cliff and race little gimp kids it matters not as long as the bottom line is achieved.
Ok, so let’s be diplomatic, can we agree that Patton deserved a reprimand and some kind of light punishment by Eisenhower et.al, but that Patton should be reinserted to his previous commanding post after 1-2 weeks?
Yes get the best man for the job back to work. If Monty slapped some bloke before he got in a few good licks against the Germans, Rommel would be looking at which hotel he wanted to stay in at Mosul before heading to Baku.
@Imperious:
I don’t see that at all. With Patton the war ends sooner and less people die. Whats more importasnt: The dignity of a shell shocked soldier or a war ending a month sooner?
To tell Patton he cant finish off the war and save lives because he slaps people is ridiculous. Heck he can throw pies in FDR’s face all day or roll him down a steep cliff and race little gimp kids it matters not as long as the bottom line is achieved.
Except that the military is all supposed to be about discipline, and what he did and you suggest you do couldn’t be further from that.
Except that the military is all supposed to be about discipline
Well its alot more than that actually. But in that war if a Lieutenant slapped a private to get him to pick up his gun and fight for the platoon its just fine because the situation demands it and no time can be allowed for ‘discussions’ a soldier must do his duty and not cop out with some pathetic excuse about “i got a boo boo on my finger… i cant fight today… send me back to the buffet”
Every day the war is shorter the better. the bottom line is justified in the means used. Its not like Patton just slaps people all day long like Moe. He slaps a buck private and the war is gonna last another 5 months because of what? No way you take out Patton because of something like this. After the war you do something but not in the moment where hundreds of thousands of our men can die because they get replaced with some commander who cant win a battle.
What if Churchill slapped some private? Perhaps he slaps a taxi driver in May 9th 1940 and never gets his chance to save UK and UK is stuck with Chamberlain. How long do you think UK would last? a week? It would be another Petain surrender and another armistice in some railroad car in London.
Now if say they found out FDR was a serial killer and killed 100 hookers from his wheelchair… then he should not be king for 16 years. But slapping some private can be overlooked for the greater good.
What do you think of General George S. Patton?
I am biased. General Patton commanded the 3rd Army, and I was in the 3rd Infantry Division stationed out of Fort Benning (which has a memorial to him.)
I rate Patton as one of the best of the western allied Generals of WWII, and probably my number one pick to lead a “blitzkreig” style armoured penetration attack. If you want x distance covered in Y days, I think Patton would be the western general to call.
That being said I do believe the legend of the man is slightly bigger than his real world accomplishments. Very good general, but a great character and historic icon.
I think hes almost the opposite of the guy I rate as one of the best allied WWII Generals, William Slim. Slim was an amazing commander and the Burma campaign was battlefield brilliance. However, Slim doesn’t have Legend status and was by most accounts a humble and forthright soldier whose actions are largely forgotten.
Of course he did, they gave him no other choice. They was in hospital. Soldiers dont belong in hospitals. Real soldiers fight or die. Real soldiers dont say, - Ohh I am sick today, so I cant kill anybody. Now if I was Patton I would have slapped their butts and used my knee on their face too, just as they deserved.
Very uncool of you to say :-o :x :cry:
those troops were wounded in combat, and deserve the best medical attention available.
@Deaths:
Of course he did, they gave him no other choice. They was in hospital. Soldiers dont belong in hospitals. Real soldiers fight or die. Real soldiers dont say, - Ohh I am sick today, so I cant kill anybody. Now if I was Patton I would have slapped their butts and used my knee on their face too, just as they deserved.
Very uncool of you to say :-o :x :cry:
those troops were wounded in combat, and deserve the best medical attention available.
I missed that original comment somehow, that’s a pretty repellent statement Aldertag. Your attitude saddens me somewhat, I believe you should take a good look at what is required being a soldier, and the harsh realities of warfare and injury. I know a lot of “Real Soldiers” who would be none too happy about your statement.
@Imperious:
Except that the military is all supposed to be about discipline
Well its alot more than that actually. But in that war if a Lieutenant slapped a private to get him to pick up his gun and fight for the platoon its just fine because the situation demands it and no time can be allowed for ‘discussions’ a soldier must do his duty and not cop out with some pathetic excuse about “i got a boo boo on my finger… i cant fight today… send me back to the buffet”
Every day the war is shorter the better. the bottom line is justified in the means used. Its not like Patton just slaps people all day long like Moe. He slaps a buck private and the war is gonna last another 5 months because of what? No way you take out Patton because of something like this. After the war you do something but not in the moment where hundreds of thousands of our men can die because they get replaced with some commander who cant win a battle.
What if Churchill slapped some private? Perhaps he slaps a taxi driver in May 9th 1940 and never gets his chance to save UK and UK is stuck with Chamberlain. How long do you think UK would last? a week? It would be another Petain surrender and another armistice in some railroad car in London.
Now if say they found out FDR was a serial killer and killed 100 hookers from his wheelchair… then he should not be king for 16 years. But slapping some private can be overlooked for the greater good.
Except that wasn’t the situation. Generals (or really any officer) have no business slapping soldiers. Much more important matters. And of course I already said he was good for his position, he just did and said stupid shit like this.
You can avoid slapping people and still win a war. The war would have been won anyway without Patton, but I wasn’t saying he should be executed for it.
@Deaths:
Of course he did, they gave him no other choice. They was in hospital. Soldiers dont belong in hospitals. Real soldiers fight or die. Real soldiers dont say, - Ohh I am sick today, so I cant kill anybody. Now if I was Patton I would have slapped their butts and used my knee on their face too, just as they deserved.
Very uncool of you to say :-o :x :cry:
those troops were wounded in combat, and deserve the best medical attention available.
Uhm, okay, bearing in mind I don’t know everything about the conversation or for that matter, what the people in question were thinking and what lead up to the situation, but as I remember it:
General Patton did not like cowards.
General Patton viewed those with “shell shock” to be cowards (otherwise, they would not be afraid of battle, right?)
General Patton saw soldiers with “battle fatigue” aka “shell shock” being quartered in hospitals with “brave” (aka soldiers who fought and were wounded in combat) soldiers
General Patton believed that putting cowards in with brave soldiers insulted the brave soldiers
General Patton insisted on moving the cowards to another barracks, or even better, putting them on the front lines to catch bullets meant for brave soldiers.
That is my personal opinion and recollection of events.
I missed that original comment somehow, that’s a pretty repellent statement Aldertag. Your attitude saddens me somewhat, I believe you should take a good look at what is required being a soldier, and the harsh realities of warfare and injury. I know a lot of “Real Soldiers” who would be none too happy about your statement.
He was a UN soldier for a decent number of years. Ask him.
I was a Soldier. And if getting back from the frontlines for a few hours to relieve ones self from shell shock is considered being a coward, I would hate to be in Your Company.
So if a Trooper was in a fox Hole and it got hit by Mortar fire and his 3 Buddies were blown off the face of the Planet but He some how survived. You would call him a coward for wanting to be taken off the line for a few Hours to pull ones self back together. :-o :-o :cry:
I pity you and the ignorance of warfare you harbour inside.
Well just don’t call him Swedish. He hates that.
Also, Patton should be very well aware of that he was a General, not the director of a hospital, not a doctor or psychiatrist. Patton should let the medicals do their job, and Patton does his job……and Patton has not medical training and/or education, Patton is a commanding General and not a doctor.
Patton should understand this matter very easily. When privates are being punished if they do not do their jobs as soldiers, or don’t follow orders from officers, then logically it’s very clear that if whoever General do something wrong, he also deserves to be punished, just like ordinary soldiers. What kind of punishment Patton deserved we will never agree on, but if someone thinks that Generals should be above the (military) law, and order then there is something wrong in your brains.
Generals should be above the (military) law, and order then there is something wrong in your brains.
slapping a private is not in indication of this. Of course using the military to overthrow your government is far more serious. The Romans did that.
But in the case of a slap Patton was rightfully not relieved on command for long. The military really does not have cut and dry rules in wartime for stuff like that because the successful struggle of a nation in war is the prime concern. I think Patton’s idea of collaboration with remnant German forces to fight the Soviets was a more serious breech. Its good that he was joking and didn’t try to ‘start something’. We all knew he hated the Russians just as much as the Germans.
@IL, but you do agree that Patton deserved punishment? We do not agree what kind of punishment, or how long etc. ?
But (imo) it is totally wrong to not punish Generals (if they do something which is clearly wrong or breaking the rules) even how great or good a certain General is, regardless if it is in wartime or not.
Generals do not make the laws, even if it is during a war, and not during a peacetime.
But yes, slapping a solider is not a very serious incident, but imo it deserves somekind of punishment.
