AARHE: Lite

[tekkyy]

IL I am combined our preferences and noted some conflicts
waiting for comments here

@tekkyy:

These conflicts remain. Comments required:

[Imperious Leader]

Phase 1: Collect Income–-- how can this be eliminated?

Economic Attacks— each german naval outside baltic takes 1 ipc off UK/lend lease and each USA/UK sub in pacific takes one ipc from japan… how hard is this to have in LIght?

Phase 3: Combat Move---- yea lets get rid of combat movement. we dont need to move units anymore…
Air Movement— sure planes no longer fly. great
Stalinist Xenophobia---- no allies in USSR. whats hard about that?
Phase 4: Conduct Combat— ok no more combat who needs it.
Anti-Air---- roll 1, then roll 1 again 1=plane dies, 2-3 plane flys back. easy.
Defender retreat----keep it.
Land Combat: Hit Allocation…tanks go against tanks, like for like. basic AARHE
Submarine Submerge----- yes of course
Naval Combat: Hit Allocation----- dump everything except 1) planes hits cant go against subs if another ship is availible, and 2) transports are not soaks

The rest of this must also be included.
Strategic Bombing Raid (SBR)
Phase 5: Non-combat Move
Phase 6: Mobilize New Units
Victory City Mobilization

JUst post the results and from there we cut and edit out. This system of decision is hopeless. This is more like making a cake and deciding how to change the recipe without actually baking the new recipe. Its gotta be trial and error. You cant design like a computer flow chart. :mrgreen:

[tekkyy]

system is going fine
you merely misread my post  :-P
this is so funny  :-D

Air Movement–- sure planes no longer fly. great
Stalinist Xenophobia---- no allies in USSR. whats hard about that?

that list is “consensus between us”
(part of the 15 items I want AND not part of the 13 items you hate)
we ARE having them, don’t worry

I am asking for comments on conflicts
(part of the 15 items I want AND part of the 13 items you hate)

Lend-Lease
Scorched Earth
Terrain
Land Combat: Amphibious Assault
Industrial Complex Mobilization

I’ve given in on terrain and amphibious assault.
You just have to comment on the other 3.

@tekkyy:

These conflicts remain. Comments required:
Lend-Lease: One line and no accounting needed. So why not? It is important as US/UK can’t enter Russian territories.
Scorched Earth: One line and no accounting needed. So why not? “Sorched earth” man.
Industrial Complex Mobilization: Its not simple in that it requires adding up IPC value of the units you are deploying. But you don’t really want Battleships to pop out of anywhere but major industrial centres. I am 50-50 on this. What do you think?

Economic Attacks–- each german naval outside baltic takes 1 ipc off UK/lend lease and each USA/UK sub in pacific takes one ipc from japan… how hard is this to have in LIght?

don’t get confused
Economic Attack is about economic attacks having a round limit
what you mentioned is an alternative Convoy Sea Zone rule you proposed about a month ago
and I have already posted several unrealistic outcomes of that

[Imperious Leader]

Lend-Lease: One line and no accounting needed. So why not? It is important as US/UK can’t enter Russian territories.
========= Lend lease is one line, Xenophobia is another line make it so.

Scorched Earth: One line and no accounting needed. So why not? “Sorched earth” man.
===== you can destroy your factories by declaring it at the start of the combat round, if you still have forces left they are considered sufficient to have blown up the factory. Also, if you have any factories you may also “sell” them back and get 5 IPC to your treasury. This is done at the end of your turn only.

Industrial Complex Mobilization: Its not simple in that it requires adding up IPC value of the units you are deploying. But you don’t really want Battleships to pop out of anywhere but major industrial centres. I am 50-50 on this. What do you think?

++++++Get rid of that 4x the IPC thing. Battleships and carriers can only be created in original sea zones adjacent to your original factories. In all cases you can build total quantity of units of any type in factories equal to the IPC value, and an additional amount of infantry also equal ( example: Territory value with factory can build 3 tanks and 3 infantry. Territory of 3 ipc and no factory can build only 3 infantry if its originally yours or 1/2 rounded down if occupied. Also, you cant build factories in occupied territories, BUT you can capture enemy factories ( also producing at 1/2 rounded down rate)

[Adlertag]

one more + karma from me

[tekkyy]

@Imperious:

========= Lend lease is one line, Xenophobia is another line make it so.

ok cool

===== you can destroy your factories by declaring it at the start of the combat round, if you still have forces left they are considered sufficient to have blown up the factory. Also, if you have any factories you may also “sell” them back and get 5 IPC to your treasury. This is done at the end of your turn only.

hehe thats pretty much the existing rule
so lets use the existing?
(existing rule is declare in purchase phase, destroy in mobilization phase…new rule is declare in combat phase, destroy at end of turn)

though we shouldn’t be adding new things
so lets not have the 5 IPC sell thing (thats more of IC relocation rather than sorched earth idea) nor requirement for force (this is your turn and your territory, after all)

++++++Get rid of that 4x the IPC thing. Battleships and carriers can only be created in original sea zones adjacent to your original factories. In all cases you can build total quantity of units of any type in factories equal to the IPC value, and an additional amount of infantry also equal ( example: Territory value with factory can build 3 tanks and 3 infantry. Territory of 3 ipc and no factory can build only 3 infantry if its originally yours or 1/2 rounded down if occupied. Also, you cant build factories in occupied territories, BUT you can capture enemy factories ( also producing at 1/2 rounded down rate)

ok nice and simple Mobilization rule, we’ll use it to replace both IC and VC Mobilization rule
I don’t think we need to disallow building IC at enemy territories though
limit of 1/2 round down is fine I think

Alright probably resolved all conflicts.

Updated draft:

Phase 1: Collect Income
Economic Attacks
Lend-Lease
Phase 2: Purchase
Sorched Earth
Phase 3: Combat Move
Air Movement
Stalinist Xenophobia
Phase 4: Conduct Combat
Anti-Air
Defender retreat
Land Combat: Hit Allocation
Submarine Submerge
Naval Combat: Hit Allocation
Strategic Bombing Raid
Phase 5: Non-combat Move
Phase 6: Mobilize New Units
Mobilization Limit* (new)

Time for next step. Working in the opposite direction.
You gave 37 1’s. (items you want)
Can you have a look the 37 again and give me 15?
It shouldn’t be hard for you now that several items you wanted is now already on the draft.

[Imperious Leader]

Quote
===== you can destroy your factories by declaring it at the start of the combat round, if you still have forces left they are considered sufficient to have blown up the factory. Also, if you have any factories you may also “sell” them back and get 5 IPC to your treasury. This is done at the end of your turn only.
hehe thats pretty much the existing rule
so lets use the existing?
(existing rule is declare in purchase phase, destroy in mobilization phase…new rule is declare in combat phase, destroy at end of turn)

ok keep it then.

though we shouldn’t be adding new things
so lets not have the 5 IPC sell thing (thats more of IC relocation rather than sorched earth idea) nor requirement for force (this is your turn and your territory, after all)

ok just thinking monopoly house sell back rule. nevermind.

Quote
++++++Get rid of that 4x the IPC thing. Battleships and carriers can only be created in original sea zones adjacent to your original factories. In all cases you can build total quantity of units of any type in factories equal to the IPC value, and an additional amount of infantry also equal ( example: Territory value with factory can build 3 tanks and 3 infantry. Territory of 3 ipc and no factory can build only 3 infantry if its originally yours or 1/2 rounded down if occupied. Also, you cant build factories in occupied territories, BUT you can capture enemy factories ( also producing at 1/2 rounded down rate)

ok nice and simple Mobilization rule, we’ll use it to replace both IC and VC Mobilization rule
I don’t think we need to disallow building IC at enemy territories though
limit of 1/2 round down is fine I think

ok fine…

Alright probably resolved all conflicts.

Updated draft:

Phase 1: Collect Income
Economic Attacks
Lend-Lease
Phase 2: Purchase
Sorched Earth
Phase 3: Combat Move
Air Movement
Stalinist Xenophobia
Phase 4: Conduct Combat
Anti-Air
Defender retreat
Land Combat: Hit Allocation
Submarine Submerge
Naval Combat: Hit Allocation
Strategic Bombing Raid
Phase 5: Non-combat Move
Phase 6: Mobilize New Units
Mobilization Limit* (new)

Time for next step. Working in the opposite direction.
You gave 37 1’s. (items you want)
Can you have a look the 37 again and give me 15?
It shouldn’t be hard for you now that several items you wanted is now already on the draft.

ok fine.

[Imperious Leader]

Economic Attacks        1

Phase 3: Combat Move       
Air Movement        1
Airborne Drop        1
Naval Movement      1 
Naval Transport      1 
Naval Occupation    1   
Submarine Movement  1     
Air Missions        1

Air Reinforcement: Defensive Air Support Mission (DAS)      1

Phase 4: Conduct Combat       
Land Combat: Air Units    1 
Air Superiority      1 
Jet Superiority      1 
Anti-Air        1
Land Combat: Retreat Decision  1

Attacker retreat        1

Land Combat: Hit Allocation        1

Naval Combat: Air units      1 
Jet Supremacy        1
Anti-Air        1

Defender Retreat        1
Attacker Retreat      1

Naval Combat: Hit Allocation        1

Naval Combat: Submarine Warfare    1   
Wolf pack        1
Naval Combat: Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW)    1

Air Missions       
Counter-Air Mission (CA)        1

Economic attacks        1

Phase 5: Non-combat Move       
Air Movement        1
Air Transport        1
Non-combat Reinforcement    1 
Strategic Redeployment (optional)      1

I cant remove any more than these. they are too solid.

[tekkyy]

ok you’ve cut down to 31 items

these 6 are actually already in:

Phase 1: Economic Attacks        1
Phase 3: Air Movement        1
Phase 4: Land Combat: Anti-Air        1
Phase 4: Land Combat: Defender Retreat        1
Phase 4: Land Combat: Hit Allocation        1
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Hit Allocation        1

so 25 left
from those, these 15 are simple yet major in gameplay
so we’ll have them:

Phase 3: Airborne Drop        1
Phase 3: Air Reinforcement: Defensive Air Support Mission (DAS)      1
Phase 3: Naval Transport      1 
Phase 3: Naval Occupation    1   
Phase 4: Retreat Decision  1     
Phase 4: Land Combat:  Attacker Retreat      1
Phase 4: Land Combat: Air Units    1 
Phase 4: Land Combat: Air Units: Air Superiority      1 
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Attacker retreat        1
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Air units      1 
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Anti-Air        1
Phase 4: Wolf pack        1
Phase 4: Economic attacks        1
Phase 5: Air Transport        1
Phase 5: Non-combat Reinforcement    1

the remaining 10 I find are either complex or not major
you shall defend them, or we simplify or remove them

lets hope we keep it “lite” !
we want a small subset, not AARHE with just a few rules removed

Phase 3: Naval Movement      1 -> might be a bit complex for lite to roll dice even before combat
Phase 3: Submarine Movement  1  -> might be a bit complex for lite to roll dice even before combat
Phase 4: Land Combat: Air Units: Jet Superiority      1 -> not major, not core to gameplay
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Air Units: Jet Supremacy        1 -> not major, not core to gameplay
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Submarine Warfare    1 -> AARHE hit allocation already sorts out a lot, we could remove this paragraph, which’ll merely removes first cycle bonus
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW)    1 -> a bit complex for lite, we don’t want players to have to allocate air/naval units to ASW resulting in a complex combat seqeunce

Phase 3: Air Missions        1
Phase 4: Air Missions          1
Phase 4: Counter-Air Mission (CA)        1
-> I think “air missions” sounds complex for lite, could do with just the 2 most important moves, SBR and DAS, SBR rule is already in and that describes the AA and dogfight before SBR rolls

Phase 5: Air Movement        1  -> lets just use OOB for NCM air movement? NCM air is not that major
Phase 5: Strategic Redeployment (optional)      1  -> this is optional in the first place

[Imperious Leader]

WE need to keep these> I got rid of some. Add these in and latter we can simplify. Start work. No more of this methodology. Lets get something done.

Phase 3: Submarine Movement  1  -> might be a bit complex for lite to roll dice even before combat
Phase 4: Land Combat: Air Units: Jet Superiority      1 -> not major, not core to gameplay
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Air Units: Jet Supremacy        1 -> not major, not core to gameplay
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Submarine Warfare    1 -> AARHE hit allocation already sorts out a lot, we could remove this paragraph, which’ll merely removes first cycle bonus
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW)    1 -> a bit complex for lite, we don’t want players to have to allocate air/naval units to ASW resulting in a complex combat seqeunce

Phase 4: Counter-Air Mission (CA)        1
-> I think “air missions” sounds complex for lite, could do with just the 2 most important moves, SBR and DAS, SBR rule is already in and that describes the AA and dogfight before SBR rolls

++++++++++++No CA and DAS are the most important historical models right along SBR. They dont take up too much space. leave them. If people cant figure these ideas out then they are stupid and don’t deserve anything we create.

[tekkyy]

Don’t worry. Its going great. We’ve progressed a lot.
We add items to the list once we’ve reached concensus.

Its better than you add some, I add some…round robin style.
That will only produce a document neither of us agree with.

Though it seems we have different feelings towards AARHE:Lite. I want it fairly light.
AARHE is just 20 pages excluding NA. If AARHE:Lite takes 10 pages then whats the point?
I am hoping Lite will be quite a bit under 10 pages.
The list is fairly long already. Will see what happens.

In already:

Phase 1: Economic Attacks
Phase 1: Lend-Lease
Phase 2: Sorched Earth
Phase 3: Air Movement
Phase 3: Stalinist Xenophobia
Phase 3: Airborne Drop
Phase 3: Air Reinforcement: Defensive Air Support Mission (DAS)
Phase 3: Naval Transport
Phase 3: Naval Occupation
Phase 4: Retreat Decision
Phase 4: Defender retreat
Phase 4: Attacker Retreat
Phase 4: Land Combat: Air Units
Phase 4: Land Combat: Air Units: Air Superiority
Phase 4: Land Combat: Anti-Air
Phase 4: Land Combat: Hit Allocation
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Air units
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Anti-Air
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Hit Allocation
Phase 4: Wolf pack
Phase 4: Submarine Submerge
Phase 4: Economic attacks
Phase 4: Strategic Bombing Raid
Phase 5: Air Transport
Phase 5: Non-combat Reinforcement
Phase 6: Mobilization Limit* (new)
Phase 7: Jet supermacy

Comments on remaining conflicts:

Phase 3: Submarine Movement: this rule merely lets submarines go through destroyers after rolling, rolling before combat might be a lot
Phase 4: Land/Naval: Jet Supremacy: selecting targets before each roll might be a lot
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Submarine Warfare + Phase 4: Naval Combat: Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) how do you intend to simplify these two? I am worry about selecting targets before rolling and unit allocation…and I am sugguesting no ASW search, submarines undetected first cycle, detected other cycles (the same as normal AARHE except you roll search dice to determine for first cycle)
Phase 4: Counter-Air Mission (CA) -> ok we’ll have it, this is going to add some length

[Imperious Leader]

Phase 3: Submarine Movement: this rule merely lets submarines go through destroyers after rolling, rolling before combat might be a lot.

Its only a few lines of text. Sub stall is a HUGE issue and this puts an end to it. Subs are too good value for what they do. This takes away some of this and gives value to destroyers, which can indeed stop fleets but at a higher price.

Phase 4: Land/Naval: Jet Supremacy: selecting targets before each roll might be a lot

Its easy to use this rule. anything that is simple to learn and has AARHE ideas mus be used whenever possible.

Phase 4: Naval Combat: Submarine Warfare + Phase 4: Naval Combat: Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) how do you intend to simplify these two? I am worry about selecting targets before rolling and unit allocation…and I am sugguesting no ASW search, submarines undetected first cycle, detected other cycles (the same as normal AARHE except you roll search dice to determine for first cycle)

This is a major component from AARHE. It cant be removed. Just try and make it in simple jargon.

Phase 4: Counter-Air Mission (CA) -> ok we’ll have it, this is going to add some length

This is a must have or the battle of Britain does not happen. Ground interdiction should be kept also but made simple.

ALSO, get rid of that “you lose 4 ipc” thingy from the normal AARHE rules. I have 2 people also telling me it makes no sence and try to argue that all they have to do is get a sub in the atlantic and Germany loses 4 ipc if they own the Azores.

Convoy Sea Zone

A sea zone part of a path* [see Spending or Saving IPC] is a convoy sea zone. Each hostile naval unit
(except Transport) destroys 1 IPC. This is applied to IPC going via the path. Exception applies if it is an
island sea zone, then each hostile naval unit (except Transport) destroys 4 IPC instead.

This line must go away.  Japan owns like 10 island groups and USA buys 10 subs and takes 40 ipc off japan. Rubbish.

[tekkyy]

@Imperious:

Phase 3: Submarine Movement: this rule merely lets submarines go through destroyers after rolling, rolling before combat might be a lot.

Its only a few lines of text. Sub stall is a HUGE issue and this puts an end to it. Subs are too good value for what they do. This takes away some of this and gives value to destroyers, which can indeed stop fleets but at a higher price.

oh, then its “Naval Movement” you want, not “Submarine Movement”

Phase 4: Land/Naval: Jet Supremacy: selecting targets before each roll might be a lot

Its easy to use this rule. anything that is simple to learn and has AARHE ideas mus be used whenever possible.

yeah I’ve moved that item to the draft list already
it’ll be a line when explaining the Jet tech

Phase 4: Naval Combat: Submarine Warfare + Phase 4: Naval Combat: Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) how do you intend to simplify these two? I am worry about selecting targets before rolling and unit allocation…and I am sugguesting no ASW search, submarines undetected first cycle, detected other cycles (the same as normal AARHE except you roll search dice to determine for first cycle)

This is a major component from AARHE. It cant be removed. Just try and make it in simple jargon.

download the latest full AARHE (since we’ve simplified some aspects just recently) and give some ideas then
its already written in the minimal way

Phase 4: Counter-Air Mission (CA) -> ok we’ll have it, this is going to add some length

This is a must have or the battle of Britain does not happen. Ground interdiction should be kept also but made simple.

right… nowyou even want GI now

almost everything in conduct combat phase you want in
conduct combat is 7 pages (p.6 - p.13)
we are removing like 1 page only

so Lite is going to be over 10 pages
(I will give you a definite figure soon)

remmeber we are making AARHE:Lite
not AARHE with just a handful of rules removed

I’ve told you from the start and I’ll remind you again
you need to be more selective
some things has got to be less important

ALSO, get rid of that “you lose 4 ipc” thingy from the normal AARHE rules.

I’ve replied in the other thread.

[tekkyy]

ok test document is 11 pages
sure we could cut a few things
but we’ll still be 9 pages

http://home.exetel.com.au/cometo/aarhe/20080331_AARHE_Lite_preview.pdf

we really need a portable document of about 5 pages
so people would actually try it

another representation…
things we’ve removed so far, just too few IMO:

Phase 1: Production Interruption
Phase 1: Logistics
Phase 1: Spending or Saving IPC
Phase 1: Convoy Sea Zone

Phase 2: Variable Industrial Complex Costs
Phase 2: Variable Infantry Costs
Phase 2: Purchase Developments

Phase 3: Submarine Movement
Phase 3: Strait Interdiction
Phase 3: Canals and Waterways
Phase 3: Terrain
Phase 3: Rome-Berlin-Tokyo Axis Co-operation

Phase 4: Conduct Combat
Phase 4: Land Combat: Amphibious Assault Sequence, 1st cycle
Phase 4: Break off
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Battleships

Phase 5: Air Transport
Phase 5: Non-combat Reinforcement
Phase 5: Strategic Redeployment (optional)
Phase 5: Other Restrictions

Phase 6: Industrial Complex Mobilization
Phase 6: Victory City Mobilization

Phase 7: Research Progress
Phase 7: Technology Deployment

[Imperious Leader]

Ok a few suggestions.

Get rid of the “fluff”

nobody cares about who made it. Remove the names.

get rid of the spaces from the bold headings to the start of the first sentence:

example of what you have:

Air Combat:

Air combat can be allowed in light and thank god Tekkyy is allowing it. ewjhfufjejl
ewljfjefjlfjlfjlflfl

Now do this:

Air combat:
In this version we allow air flight. In fact you need lots of planes in AARHE: Lite

also, leave out the optional units.

now i cut out 3 pages of ‘fluff’

[tekkyy]

remove introduction
remove acknowledgements
remove optional units
remove airborne drop
remove references to optional units
wrote the mobilisation rule
added tech

reduced by 2 pages, it is still 9 pages

conduct combat is 4 pages and a bit (p . 3 - p . 8 )
http://home.exetel.com.au/cometo/aarhe/20080331b_AARHE_Lite.pdf

as you can see this is very long

I think we don’t need Submarine warfare and ASW
I would just make it only Destroyer hits can be allocated on submarines
after tech, fighter hits can also be allocated on submarines
submarine hit allocation is already in

for tech I’ve put in
Jet Fighters -> Jet Plane
Rockets -> Rockets
Super Submarines -> Advanced Submarine
Long-Range Aircraft -> Long Range Aircraft
Combined Bombardment -> Advanced Anti-Submarine Warfare
Heavy Bombers -> Heavy Bomber

[Imperious Leader]

If you get rid of all those blank spaces between lines you have 1 more page easily. You wrote it in triple space?

[tekkyy]

no its single spacing
and it is in the same formatting as normal AARHE

focus on content

ASW, Submarine warfare, Counter Air, Ground Interdiction, etc…there has to be something that is not as important as core ideas of AARHE

I think ASW can be replaced by adding to hit allocation that only destroyer hits can be allocated on submarine
Submarine warfare can be removed, hit allocation already only has the relevant restrictions
ASW tech then lets fighter hits be allocated on submarines
naval combat sequence is then shortened

or make your own sugguestions

[Imperious Leader]

Its not single space. Come on now. Their is no freeking way your going to tell be that every other line does not have a wasted line from the bold heading to the actual content.

If you cant make it work, go back to Microsoft office. At least that allows you to do what you want to do.

or just remove the bold text and make it slanted text or underlined.

I am 100% sure a line is lost in every space from bold heading to text.

ON ASW type exactly what you want it to read and also what it reads now.

[tekkyy]

unfortunately msword does a lot less in other areas
line spacing is set to single, thats inside paragraphs
the spacing before and after headings does leave some gap
I’ll learn how to use change the layout file in a moment
in latex the layout file does the formatting for you
the document gets a consistent and professional look

anyway the point is that it was using same formatting as AARHE
allowing a direct comparison…AARHE is 20 pages, Lite is 9 pages
we’ll want to get closer to 5 pages

I’ve got rid of the page header (section and page number) and reduced margins
later on if you want we can even shrunk font, make it 2 columns, etc…

the ASW changes I am thinking should give us a simple system that is some sense similar to full blown rules, formally:

Naval Combat: Sequence
Pre-Combat
1. ASW search (1st cycle only).
Opening-fire
1. Undetected Submarines fire, selectively (1st cycle only).
2. Naval units perform Anti-Air.
3. Remove casualties.
Mid-Combat
1. Units are allocated to normal combat or ASW.
Main Round
1. Detected Submarines fire.
2. ASW attack.
3. Naval units fire.
4. Air units fire.
5. Remove casualties.
Retreat Decision
1. Defender
2. Attacker
->
Opening-fire
1. Naval units perform Anti-Air.
2. Remove casualties.
Main Round
1. Air units fire.
2. Naval units fire.
3. Remove casualties.
Retreat Decision
1. Defender
2. Attacker

Naval Combat: Hit Allocation
Submarine can never be hit by naval units except by Anti-Submarine Warfare rolls.
->
Only Destroyer hits can be allocted on Submarine.

Naval Combat: Submarine Warfare
Undetected Submarines fire in opening-fire and selectively. It may only target non-Submarine naval units. All targets are selected before any rolls. Detected Submarines fire in main-round. Submarines are automatically detected from second cycle of combat.
->
In the first cycle of combat Submarines fire in opening-fire and selectively. All targets are selected before any rolls.

Naval Combat: Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW)
Remove
(In full blown AARHE only Destroyers can perform ASW attack, value is 2…the same as normal combat value.)

Tech: Advanced Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW)
You ASW now have the following base values:
->
Fighter hits can now be allocated on Submarines.
(In full blown AARHE fighters can perform both ASW search and ASW attack rolls.)