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ERROR ! ERROR ! SUBMARINE RULES - BIG MESS



  • There are two total different understandings about the new sub rules:

    subs can´t be attacked by planes and other ships if there is not an enemy destroyer present.

    OPINION 1: This is correct in every situation.

    OPINION 2: ONLY SUBS THAT USE THE SUBMERSIBLE OPTION CAN NOY BE ATTACKED. So if the sub wants to be in a battle for several rounds, can be attacked by planes and ships until it uses the SUBMERSIBLE option. When is a destroyer present the sub cannot use SUBMERSIBLE so can always be attacked.

    I am one of the guys who thinks that opinion 2 is the correct, and if you read carefully the rulebook is the only one that does not contradict even 1 sentence from that book.



  • ERROR! ERROR! YOUR KEYBOARD IS OUT OF SERVICE! PRESS CAPS-LOCK TO CONTINUE!

    scnr :evil:



  • AND OPINION 2 IS THE MOST LOGICAL ONE.

    During the WWII the subs tech was not very developed.

    a sub to launch a torpedo had to surface or to be really near the surface, so could be spoted by other ships and planes.

    So, when participating in a battle, a sub could be destroyed by other planes and destroyers.

    When the sub decided to submerge, then the only ship that was able to detect the subs was the destroyer.

    Why only the destroyer? because the kind of tech necessary to detect subs (a kind of sonar at surface) was a really heavy equipment, difficult to handle and needed lots of space inside the ship.
    So, the logical option was to produce a ship specialist in detecting subs with some fire capacity also.

    (making a comparison to computers, in the 50s a computer processor that today is smaller than a square inch would be the size of a big room)



  • lol @ atarihuana 😄

    ontopic:
    Didn’t Krieghund already answer your question? He’s like the spokesperson of Larry Harris, the designer of the game, so he should know the intention of the rules right?

    As far as I’m concerned: option 1 is clearly more realistic (ever seen a fighter taking out a sub?), and more fun to play  :evil:, so why should you keep so tightly to the rule book?


  • Official Answers

    @MEGAEINSTEIN:

    There are two total different understandings about the new sub rules:

    subs can´t be attacked by planes and other ships if there is not an enemy destroyer present.

    They can be hit by ships without a destroyer present, but they can’t be hit by planes.


  • Official Answers

    @MEGAEINSTEIN:

    AND OPINION 2 IS THE MOST LOGICAL ONE.

    During the WWII the subs tech was not very developed.

    a sub to launch a torpedo had to surface or to be really near the surface, so could be spoted by other ships and planes.

    So, when participating in a battle, a sub could be destroyed by other planes and destroyers.

    When the sub decided to submerge, then the only ship that was able to detect the subs was the destroyer.

    Why only the destroyer? because the kind of tech necessary to detect subs (a kind of sonar at surface) was a really heavy equipment, difficult to handle and needed lots of space inside the ship.
    So, the logical option was to produce a ship specialist in detecting subs with some fire capacity also.

    (making a comparison to computers, in the 50s a computer processor that today is smaller than a square inch would be the size of a big room)

    You’re not going to make sense of this rule by looking at it in terms of “realism”.  A&A doesn’t have a tactical-level combat system.  It’s combat system is abstracted.  Rather than trying to represent how combat actually happened at a detailed level, it tries to abstractly represent the effects of combat at a strategic level.

    The reality is that in WW-II fleets and convoys needed destroyer escorts to protect them against submarine attacks.  It’s true that planes were capable of hunting and destroying subs, however the way air units are represented in the game makes them too effective in this task.  Tying them to the presence of destroyers tones down that effectiveness in order to make a more realistic portrayal of WW-II submarine warfare and its effects at the strategic level.



  • @MEGAEINSTEIN:

    If i understood, subs can be hit by other ships without the presence of a destroyer if the subs do not submerge, but can not be hit by planes even if the sub is not submerged.

    If this is right then the OFFICIAL ERRATA AND FAQ should make a change to the rulebook saying that subs can only be hit by planes if there is a destroyer present.

    It would probably be easier for you to get this question answered if you don’t open multiple topics on the same ‘topic’.

    The Official Errata and FAQ are the changes to the rulebook.

    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=ah/article/ah20081212

    states:
    Additionally, your aircraft may hit enemy submarines if you have a destroyer on the battle board."
    (my italics & bold)

    and if anyone knows the whys and the reasons for the way the rules are, it’s Krieghund- it’s in his job description.


  • Official Answers

    The latest version of the FAQ can be found on Larry Harris’ site.



  • I am really confused regarding submarines… Please let me show you how I was playing it and I think im playing it wrong because subs seems overpowered if I play them this way…

    1. 2 Subs Attack Battleship

    2. 2 subs get surprise strike, 1 hits, BS placed on side.

    3. BS cant fire back because subs got a surprise strike.

    4. Both subs fire, both miss…

    5. BS returns fire… hits.

    6. 1 sub submerges. to avoid hit.

    7. 1 sub remains in combat… fires hits.

    8. BS returns fire, hits… BS destroyed.

    9. sub submerges. 2 subs remain.

    Is this correct?



  • @tarkonis:

    I am really confused regarding submarines… Please let me show you how I was playing it and I think im playing it wrong because subs seems overpowered if I play them this way…

    1. 2 Subs Attack Battleship

    2. 2 subs get surprise strike, 1 hits, BS placed on side.

    3. BS cant fire back because subs got a surprise strike.

    4. Both subs fire, both miss…

    5. BS returns fire… hits.

    6. 1 sub submerges. to avoid hit.

    7. 1 sub remains in combat… fires hits.

    8. BS returns fire, hits… BS destroyed.

    9. sub submerges. 2 subs remain.

    Is this correct?

    What you posted is not correct.  You start going wrong on step 3.  The BB can fire back since it is still alive after the subs get their surprise strike.  You seem to misunderstand the way the surprise strike works.  It allows subs to strike before other units do (in the absence of defending destroyers), and inflict their damage before the defender gets a chance to fire.  This occurs every time you attack roll.  Since the subs only did 1 hit to the BB, it can fire back in the defender’s fire stage for combat.  Had the BB been any other combat surface ship, it would have been sunk before it had the chance to return fire.

    You also go wrong in #6.  A sub only submerges in lieu of rolling dice, so you would have had to roll for attack OR submerge .  You can’t do both.  If it stays for the attack roll, it must take the effects of the defender’s roll - it there are still defenders left.

    After the remaining sub hit the BB in #7, the BB is destroyed without the chance to return fire.

    So the sequence is like this for your combat:

    1.  subs can attack roll or submerge
    2.  inflict damage to defender and remove if sunk
    3.  defender’s roll
    4.  inflict damage to attacker
    5.  return to 1.



  • Thanks so much for clearing this up.


  • Official Answers

    Good answer, Uberlager!

    @Uberlager:

    Had the BB been any other combat surface ship, it would have been sunk before it had the chance to return fire.

    A defending sub would also be able to fire back if hit, as long as there were no attacking destroyers, since it would also get a Surprise Strike and the fire would be simultaneous.



  • @Krieghund:

    @Uberlager:

    Had the BB been any other combat surface ship, it would have been sunk before it had the chance to return fire.

    A defending sub would also be able to fire back if hit, as long as there were no attacking destroyers, since it would also get a Surprise Strike and the fire would be simultaneous.

    Exactly why I qualified it with “combat surface ship” - except DD, of course. 😉


  • Official Answers

    Yes, I was just emphasizing and clarifying your point there.  I’m finding that newbies don’t always pick up on that distinction.  🙂



  • @Krieghund:

    Yes, I was just emphasizing and clarifying your point there.  I’m finding that newbies don’t always pick up on that distinction.  🙂

    And you would be correct.



  • ok now im kinda confused lol subs get a first strike attack if no DD’s but do they get a reg attack same turn as well? so 2 attacks per round?


  • Official Answers

    No.  Subs get a Surprise Strike (attack before everything else except other subs with Surprise Strike) if there are no enemy destroyers.  They get a normal attack (at the same time as everything else) if there are enemy destroyers.  They never get both.



  • The thing i find odd about the sub rules is that undefended transports can launch an amphibous assault thru sub infested waters with no fear of losing there cargoes.

    Sure the transports will likely die on the sub owners turn, but I find it odd that sub capatains have to watch the troops unload before they can fire the torpedoes…

    I understand the abstraction thats going on - and for the most part I think the sub rules work (I am okay with planes not being able to attack subs et cetera) - but this particular outcome of the abstractiosn sticks in the craw.



  • I agree with the last comment here, subs should be able to defend against lone trps. Actually that would be more conssistent, as the trp must always be escorted, in defense and offense.

    I also think a good rule change ( ot just to make things more realistic) would be to let airplanes hit subs. The sub would still be able to dive before aircraft fire if it chooses so (if DDs not present). In other words sub could be picked as cannon fodder in a bigger sea battle involving air units. It would make the power with a lot of air units think twice before attacking fleets and making fleets more worthwhile to build. (discussed under another thread)


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Keep in mind however, subs alone always reserve the right to submerge before even the Attacker rolls his dice. so essentially, without a destroyer, you can NEVER attack subs unless your opponent allows you.


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