A better HR for making G40 SBR dogfight more appealing?

baron Münchhausen

Nice work Baron. Good idea on the +2 Oz. I wonder if the interceptor hitting bmbr first is too much. A dozen fighters hitting at 2 could do some serious damage to a bmbr fleet. The interceptors might get slaughtered as well, but … Maybe hit bmbr first then alternate to escort? Or if the interceptors score more hits than the escorts the difference is applied to the bmbrs? Or just have it random?

3 bmbrs, 3 escorts against 4 interceptors. 1 hit for the bmbrs/escorts and 2 hits for the interceptors. 1 escort and 1 bmbr are killed. If the escort misses and the bmbr hits then both interceptor hits could be applied to bmbrs.

Hate to make things too complicated, but escorts would probably never get shot down, which doesn’t seem quite right.

Thanks Barney,
To get an answer, we need to compare the SBR House rule with G40 OOB SBR.
To get the numbers in your example:
1 StB + 1 Fg against 2 Fgs interceptors
1 StB + 1 Fg against 1 Fg interceptor
1 StB + 1 Fg against 1 Fg interceptor.

House rule (Bomber target first, A1 first strike as an AAA against up to 2 Fgs, whichever the lesser.)
Regular SBR / with +2 special HR bonus damage to IC when STB is killed by IC’s AAA
1 StB +1 Fg vs 2 Fgs, 1D6+2: 8.965 - 7.556 = +1.409 IPC damage/SBR / +1.583 IPCs damage/SBR
1 StB +1 Fg vs 1 Fg, 1D6+2: +4.977 - 4.778 = +0.199 IPCs damage/SBR / +0.440 IPC damage/SBR
1 StB +1 Fg vs 1 Fg, 1D6+2: +4.977 - 4.778 = +0.199 IPCs damage/SBR / +0.440 IPC damage/SBR

SUM: +18.919 - 17.112 = +1.807 IPCs damage/SBR / +2.463 IPCs damage/SBR
With Oztea option: +19.575 -17.112 = +2.463 IPCs damage/SBR

1 StB +1 Fg vs 2 Fgs, G40 OOB: +7.775 - 5.33 = +2.445 IPCs damage/SBR
1 StB +1 Fg vs 1 Fg, G40 OOB: +7.639 - 3.667 = +3.972 IPCs damage/SBR
1 StB +1 Fg vs 1 Fg, G40 OOB: +7.639 - 3.667 = +3.972 IPCs damage/SBR
SUM: +23.053 - 12.664 = +10.389 IPCs damage/SBR

No intercept: 3 StBs = 7.749 IPCs damage/SBR
G40 OOB D6+2, 1 StB: +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR

1942.2 D6+2: +3.874 - 7.185 = -3.311 IPCs damage/SBR
1942.2 D6+2: +7.557 - 7.556 = +0.001 IPCs damage/StB
1942.2 D6+2: +7.557 - 7.556 = +0.001 IPCs damage/StB
SUM: +18.988 - 22.297 = -3.309 IPCs damage/StB

This HR with Oztea option is clearly positive and dangerous as well for both attacker and defender.
Under G40 OOB, you wouldn’t even risk interception, too bad odds: +10.389 IPCs instead of +7.749 IPCs damage/SBR for no intercept.

This HR SBR stay in positive for attacker and below the no intercept ceiling, making it a must to do so for defender:

Oztea option: +19.575 -17.112 = +2.463 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2 (avg 5.5 IPCs): +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR /

+2.916 IPCs damage/SBR*3= +8.748 IPCs if no interception.

baron Münchhausen

@barney:

The interceptors might get slaughtered as well, but …
Hate to make things too complicated, but escorts would probably never get shot down, which doesn’t seem quite right.

Thanks for your point.
You are assuming that you will always have more Strategic bombers than defending Fgs.
It is not always the case, especially when you bring Fighters escort and also Tactical Bombers.

Also, you can minimize somehow the damage to Strategic bomber (doing D6+2, minimum 2 if hit by AAA) by using Tactical (doing only D6, zero if hit by AAA) as fodder.

In this balance SBR HR, bombers are the bait but, with preemptive strike @1 for bombers and Fighter escort attacking @2, it is no piece of cake for the defender.

The defender know that he can exchange Fg interceptors (10 IPCs, defense @4) for bombers (12 IPCs, attack @4) when casualties are even on a 1:1.
But the attacker still get the damage on IC, AB and NB, with surviving bombers.

What is the point to intercept when you can never hit bombers if there is too much escorting fighters?
Your are trading a 10 IPCs (defense @4) for a 10 IPCs (attack @3). This is not as interesting from defender’s POV.
There will be no interception at all, most of the time.

oztea

The problem with AAs entire economic warfare model is, more often than not, the attacker runs the risk of losing more material in the bombing run than he causes in damage.

If you send in two bombers, and lose one to AA fire, you just lost 12 dollars and reduced your max damage from 16 to 8. Then, to add insult to injury you roll a 1 and do 3 damage.
SBR is a mess. I don’t think taking away the advantages for the attacker of bombers shooting in dogfight is a good idea, because it will just make SBR even worse of an option.

I have also for a while been dabbling in the concept of changing how AA works drastically that on rolls of ‘2’ it “scares away” an air unit. Meaning the unit simply doesn’t participate in combat but survives. A roll of ‘1’ would still be a kill shot. In all honestly this would eventually lead me to what my next idea was, which was another change. That facility AA can only “scare away” bombers, never kill them. and actual AAA gun pieces had to be at a factory to get kill shots during SBR and they fire after the dogfight step (if present). And even further (getting out of hand here) rolls of ‘1’ to hit during SBR count as a “hit” the bomber may allocate to a unit corresponding to their bombing target INSTEAD of damage.

So to summarize my wild and crazy SBR house rules.
Dogfight as normal. All air units fire at ‘1’ in one round.
AAA guns fire (if present) at Bombers/Tac Bombers only. Rolls of ‘1’ kill, rolls of ‘2’ “scare away” a bomber, forcing it to retreat.
Bombers select targets. Strategic bombers deal an automatic 2 damage to targets they select.
Facility AA fires. The weaker AA equipment can only deal “scare aways” on ‘1’ to bombers.
Bombers then roll for damage.
Rolls of ‘1’ count as bombing “hits”, all other rolls as pure damage.
An allocated hit can be:

If a factory was targeted, a land unit, AAA, Tank, Infantry, Mech, Artillery
If an Air Base was targeted, a Fighter, Bomber or Tactical Bomber
If an Port was targeted, an adjacent Sub, Transport, Destroyer, Cruiser, Carrier or Battleship.

This addition is bonkers, but has been on my mind for a while. Take it for what its worth.

baron Münchhausen

@oztea:

The problem with AAs entire economic warfare model is, more often than not, the attacker runs the risk of losing more material in the bombing run than he causes in damage.

This addition is bonkers, but has been on my mind for a while. Take it for what its worth.

With your first idea, you cut a direct loss of 12 IPCs to 10 IPCs.

There must be some hazardous risk, it is part of the whole game.
Attacker can control a good part of it by choosing where and when making an attack or an SBR.

If you really feel that StBs doesn’t deliver enough damage, simply keep the mechanics and values I suggested and deal D6+3 damage with a 3 IPCs minimum, even if taken down by AA gun fire.

I selected D6+2, since it was an OOB value and in most configurations there is pretty positive odds.
Of course, they are no more as high as with G40 OOB SBR, but these odds (with attack and defense parity @1 between StBs and Fgs) were more deterrent to dogfight than incentive.

So, do you still feel that the OOB SBR at D6+2 wasn’t enough damaging for the risk involve with IC’s AA guns, from an attacker POV?

oztea

From an attackers POV he can lose 12 IPCs or destroy 18 IPCs (if his bomber shoots down a dogfighter and rolls 6+2)

That’s a window of 30 ipcs that comes down to a few die rolls either saving you the game, or sending you up shit creek.

In all honesty, the bomber piece in AA should really be this

Bomber
8 IPCs
Attack 3 Defense 2 Move 6
Special Rule: Air Superiority - While a battle involves hostile enemy air units, bombers attack value is reduced to ‘2’ representing the interference from enemy aircraft.

baron Münchhausen

Black Elk Strategic Bomber 5 IPC A1 D1

Strategic Bomber in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 1
Bombard IC or AB or NB damage: 1D6

Fighter in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 2
Defend 2

Tactical Bomber in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 1
Bombard AB or NB damage: 1D6

IC’s AAA: @1 against each Strategic Bomber
Naval Base or Air Base: @1 against each Strategic Bomber or Tactical bomber
Break even ratio: 2 StBs A1 C8 vs 3 Fgs D2: 2/3= 0.667 Stb/Fg [Diff. -0.166]
1 C8 vs 1 Fg 1D6+2: +4.723 - 3.556 = +1.167 IPCs damage/SBR1
1 C8 vs 2 Fgs 1D6+2: +3.704 - 5.037 = -1.333 IPCs damage/SBR1

Global40 SBR HRules : 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor, damage 1D6+2 / damage 1D6

5/6 StB survived *3.5 IPCs = +2.917 IPCs

5/6 StB survived *5.5 IPCs = +4.583 IPCs

1/6 StB killed *5 IPCs = -0.833 IPCs
1/6 StB killed *6 IPCs = -1 IPCs
1/6 StB killed *8 IPCs = -1.333 IPCs

Cost 5
1D6 (avg 3.5 IPCs): +2.917 - 0.833 = +2.084 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2 (avg 5.5 IPCs): +4.583 - 0.833 = +3.750 IPCs damage/SBR
Cost 6
1D6 (avg 3.5 IPCs): +2.917 - 1 = +1.917 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2 (avg 5.5 IPCs): +4.583 - 1 = +3.583 IPCs damage/SBR
Cost 8
1D6 (avg 3.5 IPCs): +2.917 - 1.333 = +1.584 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2 (avg 5.5 IPCs): +4.583 - 1.333 = +3.250 IPCs damage/SBR
G40 BMode
1D6+2: + 4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR run

1 StB A1 regular vs 1 Fg D2
Cost 5
1D6: +3.611 - 2.222 = +1.389 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +4.723 - 2.222 = +2.501 IPC damage/SBR
Cost 6
1D6: +3.611 - 2.667 = +0.944 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +4.723 - 2.667 = +2.056 IPC damage/SBR
Cost 8
1D6: +3.611 - 3.556 = +0.055 IPC damage/SBR
1D6+2: +4.723 - 3.556 = +1.167 IPCs damage/SBR
G40 BMode
1D6+2:+ 4.723 - 5.333 = - 0.61 IPC damage/SBR
G40 OOB

5.486 - 3.667 = +1.819 IPCs damage/SBR

1 StB A1 regular doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
StBs rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties
Cost 5
1D6: +2.963 - 3.148 = -0.185 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +3.704 - 3.148 = +0.556 IPCs damage/SBR
Cost 6
1D6: +2.963 - 3.778 = -0.815 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +3.704 - 3.778 = -0.074 IPCs damage/SBR
Cost 8
1D6: +2.963 - 5.037 = -2.074 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +3.704 - 5.037 = -1.333 IPCs damage/SBR
G40 BMode
1D6+2: +3.704- 7.556 = - 3.852 IPCs damage/SBR
G40 OOB
+4.85 - 5.056 = -0.206 IPC damage/SBR

1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
StB+Fg rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties
Cost 5
1D6: +7.593 - 3.148 = +4.445 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.074 - 3.148 = +5.926 IPCs damage/SBR
Cost 6
1D6: +7.593 - 3.407 = +4.186 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.074 - 3.407 = +5.667 IPC damage/SBR
Cost 8
1D6: +7.593 - 3.926 = +3.667 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.074 - 3.926 = +5.148 IPCs damage/SBR
G40 BMode
1D6+2: + 9.074 - 8.667 = + 0.407 IPC damage/SBR
G40 OOB
+7.775 - 5.33 = +2.445 IPCs damage/SBR

2 StBs A1 regular doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
StBs rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties
Cost 5
1D6: +7.222 - 4.444 = +2.778 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.445 - 4.444 = +5.001 IPCs damage/SBR
Cost 6
1D6: +7.222 - 5.333 = +1.889 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.445 - 5.333 = +4.112 IPCs damage/SBR
Cost 8
1D6: +7.222 - 7.083 = +0.139 IPC damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.445 - 7.083 = +2.362 IPCs damage/SBR
G40 BMode
1D6+2: +9.445 - 10.667 = - 1.222 IPCs damage/SBR
G40 OOB
+10.973 - 7.334 = +3.639 IPCs damage/SBR

1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2
StB+Fg rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties
Cost 5
1D6: +7.361 - 1.389 = +5.972 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.027 - 1.389 = +7.638 IPCs damage/SBR
Cost 6
1D6: +7.361 - 1.556 = +5.805 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.027 - 1.556 = +7.471 IPCs damage/SBR
Cost 8
1D6: +7.361 - 1.889 = +5.472 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.027 - 1.889 = +7.138 IPCs damage/SBR
G40 BMode
1D6+2: + 9.027 - 5.333 = + 3.694 IPCs damage/SBR
G40 OOB
+7.639 - 3.667 = +3.972 IPCs damage/SBR

2 StBs A1 regular doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2
StBs rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties
Cost 5
1D6: +7.861 - 3.056 = +4.805 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +10.639 - 3.056 = +7.583 IPCs damage/SBR
Cost 6
1D6: +7.861 - 3.667 = +4.194 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +10.639 - 3.667 = +6.972 IPCs damage/SBR
Cost 8
1D6: +7.861 - 4.889 = +2.972 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +10.639 - 4.889 = +5.750 IPCs damage/SBR
G40 BMode
1D6+2: +10.639 - 7.334 = + 3.304 IPCs damage/SBR
G40 OOB
+11.459 - 5.666 = +5.793 IPCs damage/SBR

2 StBs doing SBR without interceptor

Cost 5
1D6 (avg 3.5 IPCs): +5.834 - 1.667 = +4.167 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2 (avg 5.5 IPCs): +9.166 - 1.667 = +7.50 IPCs damage/SBR
Cost 6
1D6 (avg 3.5 IPCs): +5.834 - 2 = +3.834 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2 (avg 5.5 IPCs): +9.166 - 2 = +7.166 IPCs damage/SBR
Cost 8
1D6 (avg 3.5 IPCs): +5.834 - 2.667 = +3.167 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2 (avg 5.5 IPCs): +9.166 - 2.667 = +6.499 IPCs damage/SBR
G40 BMode

Global 1940 SBR BMode SBR damage 1D6+2 / Interceptor Def @2

1 StB doing SBR without interceptor, damage 1D6+2
1D6+2: + 4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR run 1D6: + 5.833 - 2 = +3.833 IPCs damage/SBR run

1 StB A1 regular vs 1 Fg D2
1D6+2: + 4.723 - 5.333 = - 0.61 IPC. damage/SBR / 1D6: + 5.556 - 5.333 = + 0.223 IPC. damage/SBR

1 StB A1 regular doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
1D6+2: +3.704- 7.556 = - 3.852 IPCs damage/SBR / 1D6: +4.260- 7.556 = - 3.296 IPCs damage/SBR

1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
1D6+2: + 9.074 - 8.667 = + 0.407 IPC damage/SBR / 1D6: + 10.185 - 8.667 = + 1.518 IPC damage/SBR

2 StBs A1 regular doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
1D6+2: +9.445 - 10.667 = - 1.222 IPCs damage/SBR / 1D6: +11.112 - 10.667 = + 0.445 IPCs damage/SBR

1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2
1D6+2: + 9.027 - 5.333 = + 3.694 IPCs damage/SBR / 1D6: + 10.277 - 5.333 = + 4.944 IPCs damage/SBR

2 StBs A1 regular doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2
1D6+2: +10.639 - 7.334 = + 3.304 IPCs damage/SBR / 1D6: +12.722 - 7.334 = + 5.388 IPCs damage/SBR

__

Here is some maths evaluation to compare with other actual rules (provided in the above quote) :

1 StB doing SBR without interceptor, damage 1D6+2 / damage 1D6
5/6 StB survived *3.5 IPCs = +2.917 IPCs
5/6 StB survived *5.5 IPCs = +4.583 IPCs

1/6 StB killed *5 IPCs = -0.833 IPCs
1/6 StB killed *6 IPCs = -1 IPCs
1/6 StB killed *8 IPCs = -1.333 IPCs

Cost 5
1D6 (avg 3.5 IPCs): +2.917 - 0.833 = +2.084 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2 (avg 5.5 IPCs): +4.583 - 0.833 = +3.750 IPCs damage/SBR
Cost 6
1D6 (avg 3.5 IPCs): +2.917 - 1 = +1.917 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2 (avg 5.5 IPCs): +4.583 - 1 = +3.583 IPCs damage/SBR
Cost 8
1D6 (avg 3.5 IPCs): +2.917 - 1.333 = +1.584 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2 (avg 5.5 IPCs): +4.583 - 1.333 = +3.250 IPCs damage/SBR

1 StB A1 regular vs 1 Fg D2

StB roll /Fg roll / AAA roll = odds casualties

1/62/66/6= 12/216 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg killed: 5.556%
1/64/61/6= 4/216 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg killed: 1.852%
1/64/65/6= 20/216 no casualty vs 1 Fg killed: 9.259%

5/62/66/6= 60/216 StB killed by Fg: 27.778%
5/64/61/6= 20/216 StB killed by AAA: 9.259%
5/64/65/6= 100/216 both survived: 46.296%

Results:
D6 Bombard on IC … 120/216…*3.5 IPCs = +1.944 IPCs

D6+2 Bombard on IC 120/216= 55.556% * ((1+2)+(6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 3.056 IPCs
killing Fg 36/216= 16.667% *+10 IPC = + 1.667 IPC
StB killed 96/216= 44.444% *-5 IPCs = - 2.222 IPCs
OR
StB killed 96/216= 44.444% *-6 IPCs = - 2.667 IPCs
OR
StB killed 96/216= 44.444% *-8 IPCs = - 3.556 IPCs

Cost 5
1D6: +3.611 - 2.222 = +1.389 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +4.723 - 2.222 = +2.501 IPCs damage/SBR
Cost 6
1D6: +3.611 - 2.667 = +0.944 IPC damage/SBR
1D6+2: +4.723 - 2.667 = +2.056 IPCs damage/SBR
Cost 8
1D6: +3.611 - 3.556 = +0.055 IPC damage/SBR
1D6+2: +4.723 - 3.556 = +1.167 IPCs damage/SBR
__

1 StB A1 regular doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2

StBs rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties

1/620/366/6 = 120/1296 1 StB killed by Fg vs 1 Fg
1/616/361/6= 16/1296 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
1/616/365/6 = 80/1296 no casualty vs 1 Fg

5/620/366/6 = 600/1296 1 StB killed by Fg vs no casualty
5/616/361/6 = 80/1296 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
5/616/365/6 = 400/1296 no casualty at all

Results:
D6 Bombard on IC … 480/1296…*3.5 IPCs = +1.296 IPCs

D6+2 Bombard on IC: 480/1296= 37.037% * ((3+8) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = +2.037 IPCs
Killing 1 Fg: 216/1296= 16.667% +10 IPCs = + 1.667 IPCs
1 StB killed: 816/1296= 62.963%-5 IPCs = - 3.148 IPCs
OR
1 StB killed: 816/1296= 62.963%-6 IPCs = - 3.778 IPCs
OR
1 StB killed: 816/1296= 62.963%-8 IPCs = - 5.037 IPCs

Cost 5
1D6: +2.963 - 3.148 = -0.185 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +3.704 - 3.148 = +0.556 IPCs damage/SBR

Cost 6
1D6: +2.963 - 3.778 = -0.815 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +3.704 - 3.778 = -0.074 IPCs damage/SBR

Cost 8
1D6: +2.963 - 5.037 = -2.074 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +3.704 - 5.037 = -1.333 IPCs damage/SBR

__

1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2

StB+Fg rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties
2/364/366/6 = 48/7776 1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fgs vs 2 Fgs
2/3616/361/6 = 32/7776 1 Fg killed and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs
2/3616/365/6 = 160/7776 1 Fg killed vs 2 Fgs
2/3616/361/6 = 32/7776 1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs
2/3616/365/6 = 160/7776 no casualty vs 2 Fgs

14/364/366/6 = 336/7776 1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fgs vs 1 Fg
14/3616/361/6 = 224/7776 1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
14/3616/365/6 = 1120/7776 1 Fg vs 1 Fg
14/3616/361/6= 224/7776 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
14/3616/365/6 = 1120/7776 no casualty vs 1 Fg

20/364/366/6 = 480/7776 1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fg vs no casualty
20/3616/361/6 = 320/7776 1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
20/3616/365/6 = 1600/7776 1 Fg vs no casualty
20/3616/361/6 = 320/7776 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
20/3616/365/6 = 1600/7776 no casualty at all

Results:
Bombard on IC: 5760/7776= 74.074%* ((1+2)+(6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 4.074 IPCs
Killing 2 Fgs: 432/7776= 2.778%*+20 IPCs = + 1.111 IPC
Killing 1 Fg: 3024/7776= 27.778% +10 IPCs = + 3.889 IPCs
Fg killed: 2880/7776= 37.04%-10 IPCs = - 3.704 IPCs

StB killed: 576/7776= 7.41%-5 IPCs = - 0.370 IPCs
StB & Fg killed: 1440/7776=18.52%-15 IPCs = - 2.778 IPCs

StB killed: 576/7776= 7.41%-6 IPCs = - 0.444 IPCs
StB & Fg killed: 1440/7776=18.52%-16 IPCs = - 2.963 IPCs

StB killed: 576/7776= 7.41%-8 IPCs = - 0.593 IPCs
StB & Fg killed: 1440/7776=18.52%-18 IPCs = - 3.333 IPCs

Cost 5
1D6: +7.593 - 3.148 = +4.445 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.074 - 3.148 = +5.926 IPCs damage/SBR
Cost 6
1D6: +7.593 - 3.407 = +4.186 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.074 - 3.407 = +5.667 IPCs damage/SBR
Cost 8
1D6: +7.593 - 3.926 = +3.667 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.074 - 3.926 = +5.148 IPCs damage/SBR

2 StBs A1 regular doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2

StBs rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties

1/364/3636/36 = 144/46656 2 StBs killed by Fg vs 2 Fgs: 0.309%
1/3616/366/36 = 96/46656 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs : 0.206%
1/3616/3630/36 = 480/46656 1 StB killed by Fg vs 2 Fgs : 1.029%
1/3616/361/36 = 16/46656 2 StBs killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs : 0.034%
1/3616/3610/36 = 160/46656 1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs : 0.343%
1/3616/3625/36 = 400/46656 no casualty vs 2 Fgs : 0.857%

10/364/3636/36 = 1440/46656 2 StBs killed by Fg vs 1 Fg: 3.086%
10/3616/366/36 = 960/46656 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 2.058%
10/3616/3630/36 = 4800/46656 1 StB killed by Fg vs 1 Fg : 10.288%
10/3616/361/36= 160/46656 2 StBs killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 0.343%
10/3616/3610/36= 1600/46656 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 3.429%
10/3616/3625/36 = 4000/46656 no casualty vs 1 Fg : 8.573%

25/364/3636/36 = 3600/46656 2 StBs killed by Fg vs no casualty : 7.716%
25/3616/366/36 = 2400/46656 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 5.144%
25/3616/3630/36 = 12000/46656 1 StBs killed by Fg vs no casualty : 25.72%
25/3616/361/36 = 400/46656 2 StBs killed by AAA vs no casualty : 0.857%
25/3616/3610/36 = 4000/46656 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 8.573%
25/3616/3625/36 = 10000/46656 no casualty at all : 21.433%

Results:
2x Bombard on IC: 14400/46656= 30.864% * ((6+16) IPCs)/2= +11 IPCs) = + 3.395 IPCs / *+7 = +2.160
1x Bombard on IC: 23040/46656= 49.383% * ((3+8) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = +2.716 IPCs / +3.5 = +1.728
Killing 2 Fgs: 1296/46656= 2.778%+20 IPCs = + 0.556 IPC
Killing 1 Fg: 12960/46656= 27.778% *+10 IPCs = + 2.778 IPCs

2 StBs killed: 9216/46656= 19.753%-10 IPCs = - 1.975 IPCs
1 StB killed: 23040/46656= 49.383%-5 IPCs = - 2.469 IPCs

2 StBs killed: 9216/46656= 19.753%-12 IPCs = - 2.370 IPCs
1 StB killed: 23040/46656= 49.383%-6 IPCs = - 2.963 IPCs

2 StBs killed: 9216/46656= 19.753%-16 IPCs = - 3.132 IPCs
1 StB killed: 23040/46656= 49.383%-8 IPCs = - 3.951 IPCs

Cost 5
1D6: +7.222 - 4.444 = +2.778 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.445 - 4.444 = +5.001 IPCs damage/SBR

Cost 6
1D6: +7.222 - 5.333 = +1.889 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.445 - 5.333 = +4.112 IPCs damage/SBR

Cost 8
1D6: +7.222 - 7.083 = +0.139 IPC damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.445 - 7.083 = +2.362 IPCs damage/SBR

1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2

StB+Fg rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties

16/362/61/6= 32/1296 1 Fg killed and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
16/362/65/6= 160/1296 1 Fg killed vs 1 Fg
16/364/61/6= 64/1296 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
16/364/65/6 = 320/1296 no casualty vs 1 Fg

20/362/61/6 = 40/1296 1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
20/362/65/6 = 200/1296 1 Fg vs no casualty
20/364/61/6 = 80/1296 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
20/364/65/6 = 400/1296 no casualty at all

Results:
D6: 83.333% * 3.5 = +2.917 IPCs
Bombard on IC: 1080/1296 = 83.333% * ((1+2)+(6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 4.583 IPCs
Killing 1 Fg: 576/1296 = 44.444% +10 IPCs = + 4.444 IPCs
Fg killed: 360/1296 = 27.778%-10 IPCs = - 2.778 IPCs

StB killed: 144/1296 = 11.111%-5 IPCs = - 0.556 IPCs
StB & Fg killed: 72/1296 = 5.556%-15 IPCs = - 0.8333 IPCs

StB killed: 144/1296 = 11.111%-6 IPCs = - 0.667 IPCs
StB & Fg killed: 72/1296 = 5.556%-16 IPCs = - 0.889 IPCs

StB killed: 144/1296 = 11.111%-8 IPCs = - 0.889 IPCs
StB & Fg killed: 72/1296 = 5.556%-18 IPCs = - 1.00 IPC

Cost 5
1D6: +7.361 - 1.389 = +5.972 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.027 - 1.389 = +7.638 IPCs damage/SBR

Cost 6
1D6: +7.361 - 1.556 = +5.805 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.027 - 1.556 = +7.471 IPCs damage/SBR

Cost 8
1D6: +7.361 - 1.889 = +5.472 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.027 - 1.889 = +7.138 IPCs damage/SBR

2 StBs A1 regular doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2

StBs rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties

11/362/66/36 = 132/7776 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
11/362/630/36 = 660/7776 1 StB killed by Fg vs 1 Fg
11/364/61/36 = 44/7776 2 StBs killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
11/364/610/36 = 440/7776 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
11/364/625/36 = 1100/7776 no casualty vs 1 Fg

25/362/66/36 = 300/7776 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
25/362/630/36 = 1500/7776 1 StBs killed by Fg vs no casualty
25/364/61/36 = 100/7776 2 StBs killed by AAA vs no casualty
25/364/610/36 = 1000/7776 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
25/364/625/36 = 2500/7776 no casualty at all

Results:
2x Bombard on IC: 3600/7776= 46.296% * ((6+16) IPCs)/2= +11 IPCs) = + 5.093 IPCs / +7 IPCs= +3.241 IPCs
1x Bombard on IC: 3600/7776= 46.296% * ((3+8) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 2.546 IPCs / +3.5 IPCs = +1.620 IPCs
Killing 1 Fg: 2332/7776= 29.999% *+10 IPCs = + 3.00 IPCs

2 StBs killed: 576/7776= 7.407%-10 IPCs = - 0.741 IPCs
1 StB killed: 3600/7776= 46.296%-5 IPCs = - 2.315 IPCs

2 StBs killed: 576/7776= 7.407%-12 IPCs = - 0.889 IPCs
1 StB killed: 3600/7776= 46.296%-6 IPCs = - 2.778 IPCs

2 StBs killed: 576/7776= 7.407%-16 IPCs = - 1.185 IPCs
1 StB killed: 3600/7776= 46.296%-8 IPCs = - 3.704 IPCs

Regular SBRs
Cost 5
1D6: +7.861 - 3.056 = +4.805 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +10.639 - 3.056 = +7.583 IPCs damage/SBR

Cost 6
1D6: +7.861 - 3.667 = +4.194 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +10.639 - 3.667 = +6.972 IPCs damage/SBR

Cost 8
1D6: +7.861 - 4.889 = +2.972 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +10.639 - 4.889 = +5.750 IPCs damage/SBR

2 StBs doing SBR without interceptor

Cost 5
1D6 (avg 3.5 IPCs): +5.834 - 1.667 = +4.167 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2 (avg 5.5 IPCs): +9.166 - 1.667 = +7.50 IPCs damage/SBR

Cost 6
1D6 (avg 3.5 IPCs): +5.834 - 2 = +3.834 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2 (avg 5.5 IPCs): +9.166 - 2 = +7.166 IPCs damage/SBR

Cost 8
1D6 (avg 3.5 IPCs): +5.834 - 2.667 = +3.167 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2 (avg 5.5 IPCs): +9.166 - 2.667 = +6.499 IPCs damage/SBR

simon33

I’m happy if fighters are A2 D2, no first strike.

I actually think that damage from strat bombers should be 2d6-1. Would mostly roll about average, 6.

baron Münchhausen

@simon33:

I’m happy if fighters are A2 D2, no first strike.

I actually think that damage from strat bombers should be 2d6-1. Would mostly roll about average, 6.

The last post brings a table to compare various StB cost and and damage against Fg A2 D2.

This would be of use in my HR in which Fg is A2 D2 C6.
Probably 8 IPCs StB A1 D0, 1 hit, A1 SBR damage D6+2

However, the general consensus to replace OOB StB amongst 5 of us lead to StB A0 D0 C5 vs Fg A1 D1 C10. See redesign thread.

baron Münchhausen

Black Elk Strategic Bomber 5 IPC A1 D0

Strategic Bomber in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 1
Bombard IC or AB or NB damage: 1D6

Fighter in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 2
Defend 2

Tactical Bomber in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 1
Bombard AB or NB damage: 1D6

IC’s AAA: @1 against each Strategic Bomber
Naval Base or Air Base: @1 against each Strategic Bomber or Tactical bomber

Break even ratio for x StB A1 vs y Fg D2 C10:
OOB G40 SBR: 10/19= 0.526 StB/Fg
Cost 5 D6 damage: 16 StBs vs 31 Fgs, 16/31= 0.516 StB/Fg
Cost 6 D6 damage: 19 Stbs vs 29 Fgs, 19/29= 0.655 StB/Fg

Fighter Interception Threshold (FIT) and Fighter Interception Gap (FIG)
G40 OOB: from 1.55 StB/Fg and less (.526 to 1.55)
Cost 5: near 6 StBs vs 4 Fgs= from 1.5 StB/Fg and less (.516 to 1.5)
Cost 6: near 5 StBs vs 3 Fgs= from 1.67 StB/Fg and less (0.655 to 1.67)

Break even point C5, 1D6 damage: near 1 StB A0 vs 2 Fgs D1 C10: 0.5 StB/Fg
1 StB A0 vs 2 Fgs D1 : + 2.025 - 2.106 = -0.081 IPCs
12 StB vs 23 Fgs: exactly 0.522 StB/Fg
No FIT (Fighter Interception Threshold), always beneficial to Intercept.

Break even ratio: 16 StBs D6 dmg A1 C5 vs 25 Fgs D2 C7 = near 0.64 StB/Fg
1 StB A1 C5 vs 1 Fg D2 C7
1D6: +3.111 - 2.222 = +0.889 IPCs damage/SBR7= +6.223
1 StB A1 C5 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2 C7
1D6: +2.463 - 3.148 = -0.685 IPCs damage/SBR9= -6.165 [Diff.: +0.058]

Fighter Interception Threshold (FIT): 5 StBs A1 C5 vs 2 Fg D2 C7 = 2.5 StBs/Fg.
So the FIGap is between .64 StB/ Fg to up to 2.5 StBs/Fg

1 StB doing SBR without interceptor, damage 1D6
1D6 (avg 3.5 IPCs): +2.917 - 0.833 = +2.084 IPCs damage/SBR2= +4.168 IPCs
+2.084 IPCs damage/SBR3= +6.252 IPCs
+2.084 IPCs damage/SBR*5= +10.420 IPCs
5 StBs A1 C5 vs 2 Fg D2 C7
3.904+6.556= +10.460 IPCs - 0.040 IPCs if no intercept.

1 StBs A1 C5 vs 1 Fg D2 C7
1D6: +3.111 - 2.222 = +0.889 IPCs damage/SBR +1.195 if no intercept
2 StBs A1 C5 vs 1 Fg D2 C7
1D6: +6.960 - 3.056 = +3.904 IPCs damage/SBR +0.264 if no intercept
3 StBs A1 C5 vs 1 Fg D2 C7
1D6: +10.490 - 3.934 = +6.556 IPCs damage/SBR -0.304 if no intercept

Fighter Interception Threshold (FIT)
G40 OOB: from 1.55 StB/Fg and less
Cost 5: near 6 StBs C5 A1 vs 4 Fgs D2 C10= from 1.5 StB/Fg and less
So, Fg A2 D2 C7 FIT (2.5 StBs/Fg) is almost 1 additional StB/Fg higher than what was possible with Fg C10 (1.5 StB/Fg).

Numbers are really good on that one!

Break even ratio: 2 StBs A1 C8 vs 3 Fgs D2: 2/3= 0.667 Stb/Fg [Diff. -0.166]
1 C8 vs 1 Fg 1D6+2: +4.723 - 3.556 = +1.167 IPCs damage/SBR1
1 C8 vs 2 Fgs 1D6+2: +3.704 - 5.037 = -1.333 IPCs damage/SBR1

Global40 SBR HRules : 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor, damage 1D6+2 / damage 1D6

5/6 StB survived *3.5 IPCs = +2.917 IPCs
5/6 StB survived *5.5 IPCs = +4.583 IPCs

1/6 StB killed *5 IPCs = -0.833 IPCs

Cost 5
1D6 (avg 3.5 IPCs): +2.917 - 0.833 = +2.084 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2 (avg 5.5 IPCs): +4.583 - 0.833 = +3.750 IPCs damage/SBR

G40 BMode
1D6+2: + 4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR run

1 StB A1 regular vs 1 Fg D2
Cost 5
1D6: +3.611 - 2.222 = +1.389 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +4.723 - 2.222 = +2.501 IPC damage/SBR

Cost 5 Fg C7
1D6: +3.111 - 2.222 = +0.889 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +4.223 - 2.222 = +2.001 IPCs damage/SBR

G40 BMode
1D6+2:+ 4.723 - 5.333 = - 0.61 IPC damage/SBR
G40 OOB

5.486 - 3.667 = +1.819 IPCs damage/SBR

1 StB A1 regular doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
StBs rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties
Cost 5
1D6: +2.963 - 3.148 = -0.185 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +3.704 - 3.148 = +0.556 IPCs damage/SBR

Cost 5 vs Fg C7
1D6: +2.463 - 3.148 = -0.685 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +3.204 - 3.148 = +0.056 IPCs damage/SBR

G40 BMode
1D6+2: +3.704- 7.556 = - 3.852 IPCs damage/SBR
G40 OOB
+4.85 - 5.056 = -0.206 IPC damage/SBR

1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
StB+Fg rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties
Cost 5
1D6: +7.593 - 3.148 = +4.445 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.074 - 3.148 = +5.926 IPCs damage/SBR

Cost 5 vs Fg C7
1D6: +6.093 - 5.185 = +0.908 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +7.574 - 5.185 = +2.389 IPCs damage/SBR

G40 BMode
1D6+2: + 9.074 - 8.667 = + 0.407 IPC damage/SBR
G40 OOB
+7.775 - 5.33 = +2.445 IPCs damage/SBR

2 StBs A1 regular doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
StBs rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties
Cost 5
1D6: +7.222 - 4.444 = +2.778 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.445 - 4.444 = +5.001 IPCs damage/SBR

Cost 5 vs Fg C7
1D6: +6.221 - 4.444 = +1.777 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +8.444 - 4.444 = +4.00 IPCs damage/SBR

G40 BMode
1D6+2: +9.445 - 10.667 = - 1.222 IPCs damage/SBR
G40 OOB
+10.973 - 7.334 = +3.639 IPCs damage/SBR

1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2
StB+Fg rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties
Cost 5
1D6: +7.361 - 1.389 = +5.972 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.027 - 1.389 = +7.638 IPCs damage/SBR

Cost 5 vs Fg C7
1D6: +6.028 - 3.167 = +2.861 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +7.694 - 3.167 = +4.527 IPCs damage/SBR

G40 BMode
1D6+2: + 9.027 - 5.333 = + 3.694 IPCs damage/SBR
G40 OOB
+7.639 - 3.667 = +3.972 IPCs damage/SBR

2 StBs A1 regular doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2
StBs rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties
Cost 5
1D6: +7.861 - 3.056 = +4.805 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +10.639 - 3.056 = +7.583 IPCs damage/SBR

Cost 5 vs Fg C7
1D6: +6.960 - 3.056 = +3.904 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.738 - 3.056 = +6.682 IPCs damage/SBR

G40 BMode
1D6+2: +10.639 - 7.334 = + 3.304 IPCs damage/SBR
G40 OOB
+11.459 - 5.666 = +5.793 IPCs damage/SBR