Real rethinking of air units

  • '17 '16

    Fighter cost 8, att 2, def 3, move 2, can scramble, intercept and escort bombers, land on carriers and newly captured territory.
    Tac bomber cost 10, att 3, def 4, move 2, land on carriers, SBR Ports and Airfields

    I just realized you put them at 2 moves.
    What do you mean?
    1 Fighter from UK can no more attack land territory in western Europe, because it needs 4 movement points?

  • '17 '16

    2.Land units roll as OOB.
    Fighters strafe land units, Att 2 or Def 3
    Tacs strafe land units, Att 3 or Def 4 Attacking Tanks is boosted +1 with a matching Fighter or Tac

    So Tank now can get A4 or D4 while a matching TcB get also D4.
    You give the bonus to Tank instead of giving it to Tactical B.
    And this bonus is also available for defense.
    So there is no more attack bonus for Tactical B paired with a Fighter?

    What was the reasons behind all this little changes?


  • @Baron:

    So Tank now can get A4 or D4 while a matching TcB get also D4.
    You give the bonus to Tank instead of giving it to Tactical B.
    And this bonus is also available for defense.
    So there is no more attack bonus for Tactical B paired with a Fighter?

    What was the reasons behind all this little changes?

    The reason is I want house rules that are historical correct and make sense. It makes no sense to bonus an aircraft attack if Tanks promise to attack the next day. I imagine that Tacs will bomb the enemy before the Tanks show up. Because it makes no sense to me if Tanks attack first, and capture the ground, and next day the planes come to bomb the POW camps. So lets agree that aircrafts will strafe the enemy before the Tanks come and join the battle. In fact, the Tanks join the battle after the planes are finished bombing and gone. At the moment planes are strafing, the defenders have a set combat value. After being strafed, this value is less, the defenders have been softened, giving the expecting Tanks an easier job and better change of success. Even if the planes miss, and the defender survives, the strafing demoralized them and softened them, giving the Tanks a big advantage and bonus when they attack the next day. So, the initial aircraft attack do not get any advantage from a Tank attack that has not yet happened. But, Tanks get a big advantage if planes strafed and softened the enemy before they attack. The bonus should be given to the unit that follow up, and exploit the situation. Not the opener.

    In OOB fighters boost Tacs because there are no opening air to air dogfight. My houserules got a dogfight before the general combat, and all Tacs that survived that dogfight are now free to channel all their effort towards the ground units, and don’t have to bother about fighters. That part is done.

  • '17 '16

    Thanks for the answer.
    It makes sense.
    I’m really OK with the fact that aircrafts support ground units, especially Tanks, and not the reverse.
    You analyze the historical situation with a before/after Tank assault.
    Sometimes, assault were launch at the same time for Air and Ground isn’t?

    I also like that you give this bonus in both offense and defense (+1A or +1D) , not just offense like in OOB (+1A).

    However, from a game perspective, you will probably find that to separate Tank getting @4 from those @3 is just a bit more annoying than just looking for TacB to give them the OOB bonus.


    You gave a better defense to both Fgs and TcBs because…

    when attacking, this plane spent most of the time flying to the target. When defending, this plane spent most of the time in the combat zone. One to one, and with equal firepower, both fighters and Tacs are stronger on defense.

    I agree, it is clearly the case about combat in land territories.
    But, in Naval situation, both fleet are at the same range from each other. Attacking TacBs and Fgs need the same time to reach the other fleet.
    The only difference is about the CAG (Carrier Air Group) which stay on close support to protect the Carrier against incoming aircrafts.
    The defensive advantage doesn’t seems as relevant.

    I thought about a way of justifying a defensive bonus for aircrafts in Naval situation:
    Each carrier still present in the embattled SZ give a +1 bonus (can be Att or Def)  for his own aircrafts on board.
    So, all defending Aircrafts will get such a +1 defensive bonus as long as their home base is floating.
    Attacker willing to bring in arm’s way his carrier, now get an attack bonus.


  • @Baron:

    But, in Naval situation, both fleet are at the same range from each other. Attacking TacBs and Fgs need the same time to reach the other fleet.

    Strong and valid point.

    Lets say Fighters and Tacs lose one combat point for every space they combatmove .

    Lets say a general Fighter A3 D3.

    One landbased attacking Fighter must combat move 2 spaces to the Battlezone, and lose 2 points. This Fighter attack on a 1.
    One Carrierbased attacking Fighter get brought to the Battlezone by the Carrier, and attack with full strength, a 3 or less.

    One defending Fighter that was based on a Carrier in the Battlezone defend on full value, which is 3 or less.
    An additional defending Fighter that scrambled from an adjacent island, lose 1 point, and defend at 2 or less.

    How about that, to much to keep track off ?

  • '17 '16

    @Narvik:

    Fighter cost 8, att 2, def 3, move 2, can scramble, intercept and escort bombers, land on carriers and newly captured territory.
    Tac bomber cost 10, att 3, def 4, move 2, land on carriers, SBR Ports and Airfields
    Medium Bomber cost 12, att 2+2, def 0, move 4, SBR all facilities with two dice
    Heavy bomber cost 15, att 2+2+2, def 0, move 6, SBR all facilities with three dice

    AIR COMBAT

    1. One round only of Air-to-air dogfight
    Escort figthers att at 2, intercepting fighters def at 3.
    All types of attacking Bombers roll 1 in the dogfight. Def Bombers roll 0

    2. Surviving attacking Bombers commit to SBR a facility or Carpet bomb land units.

    2a. One round only of SBR. Facility AA-fire to Bombers. Remove casualties.
    Tacs roll 1 dice, Medium rolls 2 dice, Heavies roll 3 dice, every eye is one damage point, as OOB.

    2b. One round only of preemptive carpet bombing. Present AA units roll AA-fire to bombers. Remove casualties.

    Medium bombers carpet bomb with two dice, 2+2 is hits
    Heavy bombers carpet bomb with 3 dice, 2+2+2 is hits
    A Bomber need a matching land unit when carpet bombing, like the Battleship do when shore bombarding
    Casualties are removed from play, they cant defend.

    With a Fighter unit with such a high defense @3 in SBR, is this too overpowered compared to OOB?

    I think so, after a few calculations.
    Any SBR against such a foe, on a 1 StB vs 1 Fg even in this modified situation (2D6 damage, 12 IPCs) gives high odds of losing for the attacker (-3.31 IPCs damage /StB making a raid) while the OOB G40 SBR is clearly positive toward attacker (+ 1.18 IPCs damage/StB making a raid).
    Even Heavy StB at 15 IPCs and 3D6 damage is at a low - 2.78 IPCs damage/ Heavy StB making raid.

    So, this SBR system is clearly not an incentive to makes SBRaids.


  • Too much rethinking…
    How many times you think players will use it?
    How many times of game play?

    AL.

  • '17 '16

    @Narvik:

    @Baron:

    But, in Naval situation, both fleet are at the same range from each other. Attacking TacBs and Fgs need the same time to reach the other fleet.

    Strong and valid point.

    Lets say Fighters and Tacs lose one combat point for every space they combatmove .

    Lets say a general Fighter A3 D3.
    One landbased attacking Fighter must combat move 2 spaces to the Battlezone, and lose 2 points. This Fighter attack on a 1.
    One Carrierbased attacking Fighter get brought to the Battlezone by the Carrier, and attack with full strength, a 3 or less.

    One defending Fighter that was based on a Carrier in the Battlezone defend on full value, which is 3 or less.
    An additional defending Fighter that scrambled from an adjacent island, lose 1 point, and defend at 2 or less.

    How about that, to much to keep track off ?

    Probably a bit too much to track all penalties.
    Basicaly, you have 2 options:
    1- gives a bonus to the planes which are on the SZ by using Carriers and let other planes the general stats or
    2- treat the carrier planes in the SZ as the general reference and all other planes receiving a penalty.

    If I was playing under the second option, I think I would rather prefer a simple penalty, instead of a graduated ones which makes for many sub-groups of various stats amongst planes.
    For example, give at least a minimum move of 1 as a no penalty move. Anything higher, receives a -1 attack penalty.
    So, this will be simpler for the defender: any scramble or defending planes from a carrier keep the basic stats.
    For the attacker, any planes taking off an island and going further than surrounding SZ of this island receive the -1 penalty.
    I would agree that any attacking carrier brought into combat makes 2 planes without penalty.
    However, any plane taking off a carrier which isn’t going into an embattled SZ more than 1 space away must suffer the -1 penalty.

    So attacker, will only get 2 Fighter values to take care: Attack A3 or A3-1.

    Going further in specifications, IMO, is for people who really have time for such a high level of minor details which have a lesser impact in the overall scheme.
    I know that Grieghund have played with small cardboards providing numbers for each flying aircraft, telling how many moves each have left and can serve to tell the number of penalty applying.


    BTW, please answer this question, I’m really puzzled:

    @Baron:

    Fighter cost 8, att 2, def 3, move 2, can scramble, intercept and escort bombers, land on carriers and newly captured territory.
    Tac bomber cost 10, att 3, def 4, move 2, land on carriers, SBR Ports and Airfields

    **I just realized you put them at 2 moves.
    What do you mean?**1 Fighter from UK can no more attack land territory in western Europe, because it needs 4 movement points?

  • '17 '16

    @crusaderiv:

    Too much rethinking…
    How many times you think players will use it?
    How many times of game play?

    AL.

    Hi Crusader,
    are you talking about doing Strategic Bombing Raid or about penalty for long distance attacking planes ?


  • long distance attacking planes ?
    Yes

    AL.

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