Rethinking Air Units

@Cmdr:

I like the opening fire aspect, but would go:

• 3@1 per attacking strategic bomber during opening fire. Â
• Bombers automatically “retreat” after opening fire.
• Defending fighters automatically negate Strategic Bomber in opening fire (Strategic Bombers automatically retreat due to cover air patrol.)
• Strategic Bombers have a defense value of 0 (bombers caught on the ground.)
• Strategic Bombers cost 12 (Same as a cruiser.)

Yes I am taking the paratroopers back off and dropping them back to 6/7 flight range instead of 7/8 (which I really like because 8 range means they can actually fly out AND back for SBR in the Pacific!)  just to drop the price back down to 12 IPC.

Of course, defending fighters would not turn back strategic bombers on SBR runs. Â I’d like to see Heavy Bombers doing at least 4 damage as a minimum to bases and industrial complexes which means the 2d6+2 damage kind of works as well. Â (Min 4, max 14 but average is 10.) Â Makes sense that a complex would be pretty shut down a least for one season as it gets repaired as well and it refocuses attention to SBR campaigns.

@Cmdr:

I’d still have all strategic bomber defense abilities set to 0, maybe even leave them as last possible unit that can be taken as a casualty since army units and fighter units were tasked with protecting bombers at all costs.  Basically, apply the Transport defense rules to Strategic Bombers.

Hey Jennifer,
I like your ideas. I think they more reflect how strategic bombers worked. One thing that always bothered me is someone sending transports for an amphibious assault escorted by bombers to fight any scramble planes. For the game it does make sense, bombers attack @4 so they would be great to deal with scrambling fighters and/or tacs. However, in reality, it is just ludicrous.
Also, I think the idea of defending bombers having a defense of 0 is a great idea, as well as your “chosen last as casualties” idea.
A couple of questions:
1 > I may have missed this in all the posts, but you mentioned defending fighters causing attacking bombers to turn back without doing the opening shots. What if the attacker also has fighters? Do you have to have an air superiority battle round first? Or are the bombers allowed to do the opening shot as long as they are paired one for one with an attacking fighter?

2 > On SBRs, you mentioned defending fighters would NOT turn back attacking bombers. In that case, would you say the attacking bombers can still hit interceptors if they roll a 1? (since the bombers did have defensive weapons and were sometimes successful at downing fighters)

Someone else had suggested an Air to Air battle prior to any attack and I concurred that I liked the idea.  So all fighters/tactical bombers would roll using defense abilities (Fighters @4, Tactical Bombers @3 for both Attacker and Defender to simulate dog fighting)  in that case, any escorted strategic bombers should also get to fire @1 since they did have machine guns to cover all flanks.

I am thinking strategic bombers that are on the ground when the enemy attacks.  In that case, I believe the tactic was to hide them in hangers, get them spread apart on the tarmac and hope your AA Guns and defending cover air patrols could beat back the enemy air attack.

An Example:

The United States attacks with 2 Fighters, 1 Tactical Bomber, 1 Strategic Bomber, 88 Infantry, 32 Artillery, 14 Armor at the Germans in Berlin.
Berlin scrambles 3 Fighters to try and knock out the American air forces.

Before the ground battle can be conducted you have to resolve the scramble.  (Note, an Airbase is still required to scramble and you are still limited to 3 aircraft scrambled.)
Germany gets 3 hits at 4 or less (100% accuracy.)
The United States gets a hit for one of the fighters (@4) the other fighter, tactical bomber (@3) and strategic bomber (@1) miss.

The United States may either withdraw all attacking aircraft that have not been hit, or continue.  For argument’s sake the US retreats it’s airpower.

Germany may now defend with all planes left (even those scrambled.)  This is because the planes are still over the territory being attacked so they do not have to move to continue engaging, they can just dive on the unsuspecting Americans.  (This is to make up for the limit on scrambled planes.)

Just kind of how I see it.  You are not really using the planes twice on defense or offense.  Essentially the air battle is like a long “opening fire” phase that has to be resolved before the general battle can be run.  Any units left after the attacker retreats, defender is wiped out or attacker is wiped out, can continue as per normal defending rules.

@Cmdr:

Someone else had suggested an Air to Air battle prior to any attack and I concurred that I liked the idea.  So all fighters/tactical bombers would roll using defense abilities (Fighters @4, Tactical Bombers @3 for both Attacker and Defender to simulate dog fighting)  in that case, any escorted strategic bombers should also get to fire @1 since they did have machine guns to cover all flanks.

I am thinking strategic bombers that are on the ground when the enemy attacks.   In that case, I believe the tactic was to hide them in hangers, get them spread apart on the tarmac and hope your AA Guns and defending cover air patrols could beat back the enemy air attack.Â

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An Example:

The United States attacks with 2 Fighters, 1 Tactical Bomber, 1 Strategic Bomber, 88 Infantry, 32 Artillery, 14 Armor at the Germans in Berlin.
Berlin scrambles 3 Fighters to try and knock out the American air forces.

Before the ground battle can be conducted you have to resolve the scramble.  (Note, an Airbase is still required to scramble and you are still limited to 3 aircraft scrambled.)
Germany gets 3 hits at 4 or less (100% accuracy.)
The United States gets a hit for one of the fighters (@4) the other fighter, tactical bomber (@3) and strategic bomber (@1) miss.

The United States may either withdraw all attacking aircraft that have not been hit, or continue.  For argument’s sake the US retreats it’s airpower.

Germany may now defend with all planes left (even those scrambled.)  This is because the planes are still over the territory being attacked so they do not have to move to continue engaging, they can just dive on the unsuspecting Americans.  (This is to make up for the limit on scrambled planes.)Â

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Just kind of how I see it.  You are not really using the planes twice on defense or offense.  Essentially the air battle is like a long “opening fire” phase that has to be resolved before the general battle can be run.  Any units left after the attacker retreats, defender is wiped out or attacker is wiped out, can continue as per normal defending rules.

How is this an example of scramble?
Why German’s air defense should be limited to 3 units?
Why the 10 alleged German’s Fighters (for argument’s sake) cannot all defend the invaded homeland territory?
There is no need of a functionnal Airbase, per OOB rule, since it is not an amphibious assault.

But if it was the case, US’ transports, DDs and escorting planes must fight to the death, any defending Subs and up to three scrambled German’s Fighters, all at regular combat values.

Why in a specific air combat phase do you use the aircraft regular value, as if it was a regular combat in which you can pick ground units as casualty?

Can US airplanes and defending German’s Fighters can both withdraw from the opening air phase to fight normally behind a huge stack of Inf instead?

It was an example because Berlin, Germany happens to start the game with an Airbase.  It had nothing to do with Germany or America outside of the two nations being on opposing teams.  I could easily have chosen Leningrad or London, England.

What I wanted to demonstrate how I saw a preceding air battle prior to a ground attack and the role of the Strategic Bomber in said air attack on the attacking side.  Specifically, that the attacking bombers would roll @1 in the dogfight and then 3@1 each bomber that survived against the enemy ground forces.

Airbases area already restricted to a maximum of three scrambled aircraft, so it feels right that it stays as such.  Just like in naval battles, the attacker can bring as many aircraft as s/he wants to the fight (the defender’s option to deal with that is to choose not to scramble!)

Naval engagements against scrambled aircraft wouldn’t change.  (IE your example of transports and destroyers conducting an amphibious assault with the enemy scrambling 1-3 fighters against them.  There would be no change at all, since there would be no dogfight.)

I’ll offer one last thought on this before the topic becomes hamburger.

Read:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II
More information on WWII aircraft: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_World_War_II
I would do this:

All planes cost 10 IPCs with these stats:

Fighter: A3-D4-M4 Lighter attack, Heavy defense

Tactical Bomber: A4-D3-M4 * no combined arms bonus. Heavier Attack, Lighter defense.

Strategic Bomber: All stats OOB except they may only select infrastructure to attack and cannot be used in conventional combat at all.

Personally I don’t like this idea, but it does limit the StB to the desired effect of many whom have posted, in many ways who just want to use OOB units.

Also to the topic of Tacs and their role and what they encompass, The POV of SBs being “dead on the ground” would apply by the same logic be “Dead in the Air” in reference to TBs. Dive bombers as well as torpedo bombers were frequently slaughtered in the air in countless battles. Their attacks were more precise than the heavy bombers yes, but their fire power was limited, and the crews frequently missed their targets, especially in the case of naval warfare.

I’m not sure of what the aim of this HR is intended to simulate. But I give the suggestion to relegate the SB to a weapon that simply simulates the bombing of bases and industry and take it out of regular combat entirely if that is the desired goal. I will say however if this is to reflect historical factors, the TB should be significantly weaker and not so close in stats to the fighter on defense by any means. However the stats I gave to the TB seem to reflect the desire of the HR’s goals in relegating the SB to a more strategic role.

It is KISS and at 10 IPCs still a viable purchase even if StB is specialized only in SBR.
And less tragic if an StB is shot down by Fgs or AAA guns.
Good you think about it.
In your custom games did you ever have more than 3 types of combat aircrafts?
I let aside Air Transport.

As I’ve said I still don’t like the idea but it fits into the idea of the topic. As of late I’ve been using OOB rules and stats because I’m teaching new players. I’ve also mentioned that I have a significant arsenal of custom units so IMO I can better adapt to more or different HRs than OOB provides if my group moves in that direction at some point.

You are slightly weakning Fgs, I’m not against this.
I dare to keep OOB Fg but put it a 8 IPCs, so yours is less problematic from a cost-balance POV.
@Baron:

To me, the pricing should logically have been changed to:
Fighters- 8 IPCs
Tactical Bombers - 10 IPCs
Strategic Bombers - 12 IPCs

Fighter Stats - unchanged
Tactical Bomber Stats - always ATT 4, DEF 3 (throw out facility bombing, 1:1 rule with tanks and fighters)
Strategic Bombers - ATT 3, DEF 1 (Industrial, facility bombing ability)

Are you playing a G40 game, or a 50th Ann. Ed?
Even if the price seems nicer, it has an impact on balance.
Once this said.
Maybe this doesn’t really bother you, if you played an heavily modified AA50 game.

Fighter A3 D4 M4 at 2 IPCs lower are a big deal.
On the same IPCs basis, I’m pretty sure Fighter on offense will still be a bargain.
(5 Fgs= A15 D20 vs 4 TcBs= A16 D12)
Even though, on an historical basis, we could say that Fgs are better against TcBs.

About Strategic Bomber at 12 IPCs, I would say that there is nothing to change about them if you put TcBs A4 D3 C10.
The 2 IPCs higher cost make them far less interesting and less versatile than TcBs at 10 IPCs for the same attack value.

Just compare: 6 TcBs = A24 D18 M4 C60 vs 5 StBs (A4) = A20 D5 M6 C60.

You really get more for your bunks with your TacBs.
This also means that on the same IPCs basis, StB are less effective than TacBs.
This is also what you are looking for.
Put them against a same enemy group and compare on a battle calc. The TcBs will always get the better hand.

I’m pretty sure, leaving StB OOB will not make it as popular as before, because TcBs will be way more competitive to provide the high A4.

So, in your next game, I suggest this:
Fighters- A3 D4 M4 Cost 8 IPCs, can escort or intercept on SBR and can land on carrier
Tactical Bombers A4 D3 M4 Cost 10 IPCs, keep TacBR 1D6 damage on AB & NB, can land on carrier
Strategic Bombers A4 D1 M6 Cost 12 IPCs, keep SBR damage 1D6+2

The main question is will you try some kind of aircraft combat phase or not?

You already underlined the problem of Bombers attacking Fgs defending @4.
In such a situation, everything is upside down. All planes are even.
StB or TcB get a high A@4 while in a real combat they would be chunk into pieces by Fgs.

The basic combat value of plane should be lower to reflect the air-to-air combat of one against another. Then, in Air Supremacy case, an appropriate bonus should be allowed to planes to keep up with the actual game mechanics.

Making StBs A2 D1 C12, SBR damage 1D+2 makes it against Fg A3 D4.
In any situations StB will be weaker against Fg unit.

According to your numbers:
Fg against TcB = A2 vs D2
TcB against Fg = A4 vs D4

No different than previous Fg A3 vs TcB D3 / TcB A4 vs Fg D4.

In fact, Tactical Bombers should have lesser combat value against fighters.

The simple scale sequence should be something like:
StB A1 D1
TcB A2 D2 (or A2 D1)
Fg A3 D3 (or A2 D3)
So this reflect their relative value in air-to-air combat.
But against ground units (or when planes are behind stacks of ground fodders), things should be something like:

StB A4-3 D4-3 (depending of how we see the bombers and relative efficiency)
TcB A3-4 D3-4
Fg A2 D2

Trying to simplify the gap between air-to-air value and air-to-ground,
Fighters (cost 8 IPCs) should keep a constant A3 D3 in all situations.

Tactical Bomber (8-10 IPCs) should have a basic low A2 D2 but gains
+1 A/D with Air Superiority (more planes on 1 side)
+2 A/D paired with Fg or Air Dominance, Air Supremacy (no ennemy’s plane).

Strategic Bomber (10-12 IPCs) should have a low A1 D1 but gains
+2 A with Air Superiority (more planes on 1 side)
+3 A paired with Fg or Air Dominance, Air Supremacy (no ennemy’s plane).

After that, you need to find an acceptable way of having such air-to-air phase in each round or just in a opening phase of the first round (with 1 single cycle or multiple cycles, such as 1914).

Let’s suppose it is a fight like 1914, in which 1 side can withdraw after 1 combat round or one of the opponent decides to.

1 Fg A3 + 1 TcB A2 against 2 Fgs D3.
Results of dogfight: 1 attacker’s unit is down

After the combat round, the attacker chose to withdraw and not stay for another (since he already lost 1 unit).
Now the combat is regular phase.
And the combat value for the remaining of the battle is:
If the Fg survived, it keeps A3.
If the TcB survived, it stays A2, because there is no Fighter pairing and no air superiority.

There is many more ways, just thinking out loud.

@knp7765:

Hey Jennifer,
I like your ideas. I think they more reflect how strategic bombers worked. One thing that always bothered me is someone sending transports for an amphibious assault escorted by bombers to fight any scramble planes. For the game it does make sense, bombers attack @4 so they would be great to deal with scrambling fighters and/or tacs. However, in reality, it is just ludicrous.
Also, I think the idea of defending bombers having a defense of 0 is a great idea, as well as your “chosen last as casualties” idea.

Hey KNP,
I agree on what you found ludicrous.

I provided a way of turning things a bit differently not only for Strategic Bombers but mainly for Tactical Bombers,
in this more defined HR on aircrafts units:

Rethinking Air units simulating historical air-to-air combat
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34667.msg1337965#msg1337965

Hope, you can like it.