WMDs were just the most prevalent cause. However, there was a whole host of reasons stated in the joint resolution of Congress, and while WMDs were included in that list, they were not the entirety of the list.
And for the record, we do have proof of Yellow Cake sales to Iraq (that would be nuclear fissionable material from Africa, capable of being turned into rudimentary nuclear bombs) as well as nerve gas and rocket delivery systems that far exceeded the distance permitted by the UN resolutions and on top of htat our pilots being fired upon and one being held captive illegally and then there’s the torture camps and sanctioned rapes of Iraqs and the mass murder of hundreds or even thousands of innocents by Saddam’s hands.
By no means was this ever just about WMDs. The libs are trying to turn it into just that because its the only section that is somewhat weak and it was played up more then the rest, but in the resolution all items listed were of equal importance.
The only other things on that list were:
al Qaeda and UN SC violations, but 90% of that was about WMD. If you don’t believe me read it yourself, Darth posted it…
:lol:
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. "
I just noticed your sig. :lol:
So it was a good thing we invaded Iraq.
Or is your sig a joke???
It says to stand up against evil, doesn’t say anything about being judge and jury as the US see’s fit ;)
I see where you are going with the Saddam thing and if that was the reason given to the US I bet their wouldn’t be as much hostility toward the war based off the supposed proof of WMD ya know?
well, i’m not sure about this.
I mean - yeah, i’m kind of upset that this dumba$$ lied to our country about WMD’s and links to AQ about SH in order to try to enlist us to go in and kill a bunch of Iraqi’s.
The thing is that his idiotship also said that they wanted to take out SH, and we didn’t really care about that either.
So you have to think - the “coalition of the willing” went into Iraq because they actually believed Bush’s lies about WMD’s and links to AQ, and to dethrone SH. I wonder how many of these would have gone along if they thought they were just going to overthrow SH. My thinking is that there might be a lot fewer, and there would be a stronger case against Bush’s little declaration.
Anyway - i’m not so consumed by the “why” for invasion as i was pretty convinced that it was bunk well before the invasion. I am upset about the cost for this in the form of:
between 25-100 000 Iraqi civilian lives
untold Iraqi defenders killed during an unwarranted invasion
the theiving of multi-millions of dollars of Iraqi resources to “rebuild” its infrastructure (dumped into US companies, naturally)
midnight arrests and torture of citizens thought to be against the occupation by the occupiers
the destruction of 1800 US solders (in addition to allied) lives (nevermind the wounded etc.)
increased friction between the west and the middle east
an increase in terrorism in the world
now this is not my worry, couldn’t the >$85 B that you guys dumped into Iraq be spent in better ways? Maybe in reinforced levees around a couple of cattle fields/cities? Again - not my problem.
So, did you ever find where Congress declared war on Iraq? No? Better keep looking! Probably in that library you always go to ;) And who decided if, when, where, and how to invade? Congress? Could it have been the White House? The worst you can say about Congress is that they shouldn’t have given a loaded gun to a moron, but the moron’s party ALSO happened to control Congress. When Condoleeza started talking about smoking guns turning into mushroom clouds, it was clear Bush was going to get the power he wanted.
I don’t know why you and Darth have such a hard time grasping this. LBJ lied about the Gulf of Tonkin incident to get a resolution passed in Congress. Bush lied about WMD’s, Al Queda, and nuclear weapons to get HIS resoultion passed. Know who gets blamed for Vietnam? Do you think anyone even remembers congressmen from the 60’s? But I guarantee you people have heard of LBJ and McNamara. Do you think they’re going to look back at the 2000 Congress for the mess in Iraq? Lol! Good or bad, Iraq is Bush’s legacy.
Besides, Bush wanted an Iraq war. He was a popular Republican at the time and there’s no way the party was going to go against him. There was one Republican who voted NOT to give Bush authorization out of the entire Congress. Republicans controlled the White House and Congress and they got their little war and now must live with the consequences.
Oh, and I think I heard Rush talking about Hybrid M.P.G. averaging somewhere around 2 nowadays ;)
Mary, did you miss that entire Congressional Declaration of War? The details on how to fight the war are up to the President, but he still waited for the DOW.
I just coulnd’t let this pass, cause it’s, ya know, Jen.
Yes, we all missed the “entire Congressional Declaration of War”. Most likely because it doesn’t exist.
I’m about posted out on declarations of war now.
@cystic:
I wonder how many of these would have gone along if they thought they were just going to overthrow SH. My thinking is that there might be a lot fewer, and there would be a stronger case against Bush’s little declaration.
Maybe a few less, but I think a majority of the willing went to help us, not because they believed in the cause themselves. If one friend going to fight at the flagpole after school, most other of his friends would attend to ensure it was a fair fight and to lend support. I think this is how most of the coalition is.
@cystic:
between 25-100 000 Iraqi civilian lives
I havn’t seen any documentation to support this number, but let’s assume it’s true. How many civilians died in WWI, WWII, US Civil War, War of 1812, Mexican/American War, American and Indian War, Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm, etc? I’d assume, as I’d have to without pulling hard figures, that the number is far in excess of the few thousand civilians that have died in Iraq. (And I’m assuming pure, innocent civilians, like cattle farmers, or goat herders or other innocents just going about their normal daily events, not theives, murderers, rapists, terrorists, etc.)
@cystic:
untold Iraqi defenders killed during an unwarranted invasion
It was warranted. At the very least it was warranted because the Iraqi militia fired on US Forces repeatedly over 10 years. Also, I thought most of their “army” scattered into the hills after the initial engagements. They might be included in your civilian count.
@cystic:
the theiving of multi-millions of dollars of Iraqi resources to “rebuild” its infrastructure (dumped into US companies, naturally)
Proof? Sounds like heresay and rumor to me. After all, the US Taxpayer is paying to rebuild Iraq, not Iraq. And btw, most of those US companies over there are small businesses. In fact, Halliburton only hires small businesses to do the work they agree to manage. Halliburton is nothing but a project management firm.
So, I guess you are against the small business and against the working stiff. Which is REALLY weird since most doctors, at least here, are self-employed and you say you are a doctor…does this mean you’re full of self-hatred?
@cystic:
midnight arrests and torture of citizens thought to be against the occupation by the occupiers
Oh we have been SO over this. Puppies in your cells, the smell of bacon frying, minor discomfort in temperature (32-90 degrees), a few sleepless nights and standing naked is NOT torture! Having your fingernails pulled out with pliers is torture, having your toes cut off iwth guitar string is torture, having your eyes popped with white hot pokers is torture.
@cystic:
the destruction of 1800 US solders (in addition to allied) lives (nevermind the wounded etc.)
We’ve gone from killed to destruction….Bear in mind that Chicago had more die then died in Iraq, in BOTH wars. Bear in mind that New Orleans lost more in a day then died in Iraq. Bear in mind that Vietnam lost more in a day then in Iraq. And keep in mind some of those casualties listed are from natural causes or equipment malfunctions.
@cystic:
increased friction between the west and the middle east
Yea, because we always got a warm embrace when any westerner went over there right? I mean, that’s why the state department issed that whole statement from the 70s to the present about how US citizens travelling to the middle east are on their own, they weren’t going to go save you from terrorists. Or how Israel and America were always held in high regard by the fanatics that come to power over there. Right, we were all lovey-dovey until we toppled Saddam….of course, I think we’re a lot more lovey dovey NOW that Saddam is gone. There’s two regimes that like us, the Kuwaitis and the Iraqis, Iran’s comming around and starting to follow the world laws, Arabia’s less fidgity now, etc.
@cystic:
an increase in terrorism in the world
Not an increase. A decrease. They’re just in the spotlight more so it seems like an increase. However, most of the terrorist leaders and a lot of cells are being broken and captured each day. And many of what’s left are rag tag groups working without central leadership trying to annoy us in Iraq. Better there then here anyway. At least there we can focus on one small area, if they were here we’d have to focus there and here and in France and in Germany and in Poland and in Italy……
@cystic:
now this is not my worry, couldn’t the >$85 B that you guys dumped into Iraq be spent in better ways? Maybe in reinforced levees around a couple of cattle fields/cities? Again - not my problem.
Oh, you mean like the 43 billion they had from special taxes in New Orleans to fund evacuation and reinforce the levvies that disapeared? Gotcha.
Why don’t you ever learn that Federal Money can’t be used for the state and state money can’t be used for the feds without a whole
edit - gettin’ tired of this
of public announcements, public approvals, over sight committees, Congressional approval, Executive Approval on both state and federal levels, and, in some cases, judicial approval. This is why New Orleans and all of LA had special taxes built in to collect money over a long period of time so they could afford evacuation in emergency and rebuild their levvies properly. It’s unfortunate that no one can find any of the money…they can find the deposit slips, but not the money…wonder where it all went…
Why don’t you ever learn that Federal Money can’t be used for the state
FEMA appropriated that money for the explict intent of levee repair and it got diverted by HLS. It doesn’t get any more Federal then that.
New Orleans had plenty of money to rebuilt the levvies properly, they didn’t need FEMA’s cash, they never did…well, if their government wouldnt have embezzelled it all they wouldn’t have.
New Orleans had plenty of money to rebuilt the levvies properly, they didn’t need FEMA’s cash, they never did…well, if their government wouldnt have embezzelled it all they wouldn’t have.
And where did you find out that they had this magical money all along, Jen? I am begging you, Jen.
BTW, I read in a very important journal that the Chicago area has the worst reaction time for any emergency. Hmmm…
BTW, I read in a very important journal that the Chicago area has the worst reaction time for any emergency. Hmmm…
That wouldn’t surprise me, since the Daley Machine has been in control of Chicago forever. The curroption in Chicago is rampent. I believe even Blagovich is having trouble now.
@cystic:
I wonder how many of these would have gone along if they thought they were just going to overthrow SH. My thinking is that there might be a lot fewer, and there would be a stronger case against Bush’s little declaration.
Maybe a few less, but I think a majority of the willing went to help us, not because they believed in the cause themselves. If one friend going to fight at the flagpole after school, most other of his friends would attend to ensure it was a fair fight and to lend support. I think this is how most of the coalition is.
I think that if you want to use the schoolyard analogy, consider that the so-called “friends in attendance” are there to make sure that their “friend” does not beat them up afterwards for their lunch money.
@cystic:
between 25-100 000 Iraqi civilian lives
I havn’t seen any documentation to support this number, but let’s assume it’s true.
this is because you’ve been ignoring the US and UK data which have loudly trumpetted these numbers over the last year, but ok.
How many civilians died in WWI, WWII, US Civil War, War of 1812, Mexican/American War, American and Indian War, Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm, etc? I’d assume, as I’d have to without pulling hard figures, that the number is far in excess of the few thousand civilians that have died in Iraq. (And I’m assuming pure, innocent civilians, like cattle farmers, or goat herders or other innocents just going about their normal daily events, not theives, murderers, rapists, terrorists, etc.)
with this reasoning, i suppose that 9/11 wasn’t a big deal at all. Afterall - only a few thousand people got iced there. And Hurricane Katrina - a mere duststorm. I mean - did even 10K people get killed there? That’s nothing!! I guess that there was no reason to get our noses all bent out of shape over AQ.
@cystic:
untold Iraqi defenders killed during an unwarranted invasion
It was warranted. At the very least it was warranted because the Iraqi militia fired on US Forces repeatedly over 10 years. Also, I thought most of their “army” scattered into the hills after the initial engagements. They might be included in your civilian count.
friggen US militia flies over my country and bombs it, and we’ll see how long my pacifist views temper my rifle-purchasing and plane-shootin’ desires . . .
So, I guess you are against the small business and against the working stiff. Which is REALLY weird since most doctors, at least here, are self-employed and you say you are a doctor…does this mean you’re full of self-hatred?
this is reason number one . . .
@cystic:
midnight arrests and torture of citizens thought to be against the occupation by the occupiers
Oh we have been SO over this. Puppies in your cells, the smell of bacon frying, minor discomfort in temperature (32-90 degrees), a few sleepless nights and standing naked is NOT torture! Having your fingernails pulled out with pliers is torture, having your toes cut off iwth guitar string is torture, having your eyes popped with white hot pokers is torture.
and this is reason number two that i am returning to my attempted habit of boycotting any discussion with you. You are a terrible discussion partner.
I had previously posted scientific (peer reviewed) literature in a forum that YOU participated in that not only described a large number of people who were beaten to death in US custody, but also that American officials attempted to cover this up with fudged autopsy reports. I may be just a doctor, but getting beaten to death comes pretty close to torture in many people’s minds.
@cystic:
the destruction of 1800 US solders (in addition to allied) lives (nevermind the wounded etc.)
We’ve gone from killed to destruction….Bear in mind that Chicago had more die then died in Iraq, in BOTH wars. Bear in mind that New Orleans lost more in a day then died in Iraq. Bear in mind that Vietnam lost more in a day then in Iraq. And keep in mind some of those casualties listed are from natural causes or equipment malfunctions.
again a terrible analogy.
So the fact that only a few US solders died relative to other stupid wars justifies the invasion? I suppose these people would have died in the US if they were not killing Iraqis . . . in Chicago?? Really - you are so all over the map with your non-sequitors and fried logic.
@cystic:
increased friction between the west and the middle east
Yea, because we always got a warm embrace when any westerner went over there right? I mean, that’s why the state department issed that whole statement from the 70s to the present about how US citizens travelling to the middle east are on their own, they weren’t going to go save you from terrorists. Or how Israel and America were always held in high regard by the fanatics that come to power over there. Right, we were all lovey-dovey until we toppled Saddam….of course, I think we’re a lot more lovey dovey NOW that Saddam is gone. There’s two regimes that like us, the Kuwaitis and the Iraqis, Iran’s comming around and starting to follow the world laws, Arabia’s less fidgity now, etc.
You had very close friends in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait until Iraq.
Hmmmm . . . Saudi Arabia . . . didn’t many of those 9/11 bombers come from there? I guess since so few US citizens got killed then that’s why you didn’t bother invading Saudi Arabia . . . .
@cystic:
an increase in terrorism in the world
Not an increase. A decrease. They’re just in the spotlight more so it seems like an increase. However, most of the terrorist leaders and a lot of cells are being broken and captured each day. And many of what’s left are rag tag groups working without central leadership trying to annoy us in Iraq. Better there then here anyway. At least there we can focus on one small area, if they were here we’d have to focus there and here and in France and in Germany and in Poland and in Italy……
reason number 3. Now you’re just making stuff up.
@cystic:
now this is not my worry, couldn’t the >$85 B that you guys dumped into Iraq be spent in better ways? Maybe in reinforced levees around a couple of cattle fields/cities? Again - not my problem.
Oh, you mean like the 43 billion they had from special taxes in New Orleans to fund evacuation and reinforce the levvies that disapeared? Gotcha.
yeah - good timing. That was lucky that you got it in there AFTER the flooding.
BTW, I read in a very important journal that the Chicago area has the worst reaction time for any emergency. Hmmm…
That wouldn’t surprise me, since the Daley Machine has been in control of Chicago forever. The curroption in Chicago is rampent. I believe even Blagovich is having trouble now.
Its from the tollway revenues. The revenues have already paid off the bonds issued for them. The original intent was to keep the tollways up until the original bonds were paid off. Well the polititions who promised it will eventially go away have been replaced by new ones greedy to be paid by tollway money. Its become a political dragon and the gov’t on municipal and state levels have no more valient knights to fight it. The tollways are evil. The are and will stay a continuous lie until they go away like the original promise.
Remember the big campaign to get the transponders? Non-users are now charged double? Transponder violators are allowed 20 before massive late payment penalties escalate the fine into the thousands of dollars per driver. All for about $10 of unpaid tolls over time. Pure evil.
@stuka:
New Orleans had plenty of money to rebuilt the levvies properly, they didn’t need FEMA’s cash, they never did…well, if their government wouldnt have embezzelled it all they wouldn’t have.
And where did you find out that they had this magical money all along, Jen? I am begging you, Jen.
BTW, I read in a very important journal that the Chicago area has the worst reaction time for any emergency. Hmmm…
I found out from Neil Schmidt who was a resident of New Orleans and had been paying that tax for well over 12 years by the time the hurricane hit. Based on what he paid percentage wise and then applying that to the total population at the average income for the area, you can figure out easily that they had millions if not billions “set aside” to fix the levvies up proper and evacuate the city.
BTW, I read in a very important journal that the Chicago area has the worst reaction time for any emergency. Hmmm…
That wouldn’t surprise me, since the Daley Machine has been in control of Chicago forever. The curroption in Chicago is rampent. I believe even Blagovich is having trouble now.
It wouldnt surprise me at all. Chicago has some of the worst traffic in the world and to make matters worse, all the expressways in our beloved city are always under construction further screwing up the traffic situation.
I don’t think it’s Daley’s fault, in that even he can’t keep this city working properly.
CC: I discounted your article as either fiction or misinformation by the intelligensia elitists. Quiet frankly, that would have been all over every newspaper world wide followed by hundreds of investigators pulling MPs out of Gitmo and Iraq and putting them in jail. As none of that happened, obviously your “peer reviewed” crap is just more yellow journalism.
The ONLY facts I’ve seen, documented in actual photographs, are puppies, bacon, Quran’s on televisions and nudity. Thus, that’s all that’s happened.
You’ll be happy to know that if things continue as they have so far, Chicago this year should have the fewest number of homicides since 1967, when 552 people were murdered in our city. According to Police Supt. Phil Cline, there were 560 homicides through November
http://chicago.about.com/b/a/2003_12_23.htm
Nov-04 137 (Iraq War Casualties)
http://icasualties.org/oif/USchart.aspx
Yup, it’s just SO much safer here in the United States then in Iraq…such a HORRIBLE place to live…you’re right. Cause there wern’t 5 times as many people killed by handguns in Chicago then in Baghdad! Oh my lord, how could I have been SO wrong!!! 560 homicides is SOOO much better then 137 KIA. Sheesh. You know, CC, when you’re wrong, you’re REALLY wrong!
BTW, that’s only homicides. That isn’t including freezing to death, heat stroke, old age, disease, illiness, car accidents, etc. Just homicides. If you add in all deaths, we’re probably talking thousands a month every month, every year that die in Chicago.
Also, the funds for the levvies were there BEFORE the hurricane. Billions and billions of dollars stolen from the people of New Orleans to fix the levvies (after the 70’s when the Army Corps of Engineers told them their levvies were insufficient) that cannot be found now. You know what they say, put a democrat in charge of money and you’ll never see it again!
@stuka:
New Orleans had plenty of money to rebuilt the levvies properly, they didn’t need FEMA’s cash, they never did…well, if their government wouldnt have embezzelled it all they wouldn’t have.
And where did you find out that they had this magical money all along, Jen? I am begging you, Jen.
BTW, I read in a very important journal that the Chicago area has the worst reaction time for any emergency. Hmmm…
I found out from Neil Schmidt who was a resident of New Orleans and had been paying that tax for well over 12 years by the time the hurricane hit. Based on what he paid percentage wise and then applying that to the total population at the average income for the area, you can figure out easily that they had millions if not billions “set aside” to fix the levvies up proper and evacuate the city.
Well Bob Smith who lived in Texas his whole life and ate eggs there told me Bush was a thief and never registered with selective service, so that must be true.
CC: I discounted your article as either fiction or misinformation by the intelligensia elitists. Quiet frankly, that would have been all over every newspaper world wide followed by hundreds of investigators pulling MPs out of Gitmo and Iraq and putting them in jail. As none of that happened, obviously your “peer reviewed” crap is just more yellow journalism.
The ONLY facts I’ve seen, documented in actual photographs, are puppies, bacon, Quran’s on televisions and nudity. Thus, that’s all that’s happened.
i can’t stand it anymore.
I nearly wish to resign just so that i can forget about “setting a good example” and say the kinds of things that i’ve had to delete.
Yup, it’s just SO much safer here in the United States then in Iraq…such a HORRIBLE place to live…you’re right. Cause there wern’t 5 times as many people killed by handguns in Chicago then in Baghdad! Oh my lord, how could I have been SO wrong!!! 560 homicides is SOOO much better then 137 KIA. Sheesh. You know, CC, when you’re wrong, you’re REALLY wrong!
yes, you’re right. :roll: you can compare the number of US army deaths in the entirety of Iraq and compare that to the number of homicides in Chicago and affirm that you made the country a better place.
Whatever. I’m sure that the kind of people who buy this are the kind of people who were thinking it anyway.
BTW, that’s only homicides. That isn’t including freezing to death, heat stroke, old age, disease, illiness, car accidents, etc. Just homicides. If you add in all deaths, we’re probably talking thousands a month every month, every year that die in Chicago.
and this is applicable to the number of US solders killed in Iraq somehow as proof that the world is a better place.
well done you debating master.
@cystic:
CC: I discounted your article as either fiction or misinformation by the intelligensia elitists. Quiet frankly, that would have been all over every newspaper world wide followed by hundreds of investigators pulling MPs out of Gitmo and Iraq and putting them in jail. As none of that happened, obviously your “peer reviewed” crap is just more yellow journalism.
The ONLY facts I’ve seen, documented in actual photographs, are puppies, bacon, Quran’s on televisions and nudity. Thus, that’s all that’s happened.
i can’t stand it anymore.
I nearly wish to resign just so that i can forget about “setting a good example” and say the kinds of things that i’ve had to delete.
Yup, it’s just SO much safer here in the United States then in Iraq…such a HORRIBLE place to live…you’re right. Cause there wern’t 5 times as many people killed by handguns in Chicago then in Baghdad! Oh my lord, how could I have been SO wrong!!! 560 homicides is SOOO much better then 137 KIA. Sheesh. You know, CC, when you’re wrong, you’re REALLY wrong!
yes, you’re right. :roll: you can compare the number of US army deaths in the entirety of Iraq and compare that to the number of homicides in Chicago and affirm that you made the country a better place.
Whatever. I’m sure that the kind of people who buy this are the kind of people who were thinking it anyway.BTW, that’s only homicides. That isn’t including freezing to death, heat stroke, old age, disease, illiness, car accidents, etc. Just homicides. If you add in all deaths, we’re probably talking thousands a month every month, every year that die in Chicago.
and this is applicable to the number of US solders killed in Iraq somehow as proof that the world is a better place.
well done you debating master.
No, you accused me of not knowing what I was talking about when I said it was more dangerous to live in Chicago then be a US Soldier in Iraq. Again, I had to prove you wrong.
