The French



  • Gents,

    I know, I just posted another topic on alpha a moment ago, but this has nothing to do with it. Simply giving my feedback on alpha2 global, good sirs.

    Regarding the French:

    I sincerely think the French are not properly set in this game for two reasons:
    -Historic Reason: The French in WWII are “notorious” for their pockets of resistance, their African divisions (under Leclerc) and their exploitation of their colonized peoples (which is one of the big motives for later decolonization). The FFF/FFL (Free French Forces/Forces Francaises Libres) continued rallying up in Africa and in London throughout the war, to finally have quite a few companies by 1945 (20 divisions roughly), out of which a few were amoured.

    This is clearly not represented in the game, witht the French basically having 1 infantry and 1 plane left (in london) by turn 3, and that’s it.

    -Gameplay reasons: The French are currently more of liability to the allies than they are an advantage for the simple reasons that all their income is completely wasted, just being up for grab to the axis AND, more importantly, that every time that one of their territories is reconquered it is “liberated” giving it’s income to nobody at all, and disallowing the allies to use its factories.

    What I propose:
    option 1: the French have the “China Advantage” of being able to continue acquiring IPC without a capital and build units wherever they want (including London), on the Europe Map. However, the fall of Paris still grants 19 IPCs to germany.
    option 2: Once Paris has fallen the French Territories become like the Dutch’s, meaning that they can be liberated and administrated by other allies.

    What are your thoughts, gentlemen?



  • I like option 2  🙂


  • Customizer

    Once Paris is captured by the Axis, any other French territory that is captured by the Axis then RE-captured by the Allies will have it’s IPC value going to the liberating power.  Also, that liberating power can use any facilities on that territory (ICs, naval bases & air bases).
    FOR EXAMPLE:  Germany takes Paris on G1.  They also take Normandy/Bordeaux which is worth 2 IPCs and has a minor IC and naval base.  Then, on turn 4, the US comes up and lands on Normandy/Bordeaux and takes it from Germany, which still controls Paris.  The US will now get the 2 IPCs income and they can use the minor IC to build more units there on US5, (assuming Germany doesn’t re-take it).
    Now, if the USA then attacks France (Paris) and captures that territory, then France is considered liberated and Normandy/Bordeaux will be turned back over to France.  So, in effect, once USA liberates France, they will lose 2 IPCs from their income but gain another ally to fight Germany.  However, if the US attack on France failed, then the US would still get the 2 IPC income and could still use the minor IC.
    Some players feel that it is best to NOT liberate France right away so the US could make use of that IC for a while and build up a bigger army right there in Europe.  Perhaps wait until US manages to take Italy out so then the US can have it’s own ICs in Europe.  Then go ahead and liberate France so they can help in the struggle against Germany.  Usually, I have found in Allied-won games, Italy will get taken out before France gets liberated, which is probably the best strategy.



  • @knp7765:

    Once Paris is captured by the Axis, any other French territory that is captured by the Axis then RE-captured by the Allies will have it’s IPC value going to the liberating power.  Also, that liberating power can use any facilities on that territory (ICs, naval bases & air bases).

    Are these original (alpha2) rules?!?!?! Or is it what you suggest?



  • @captainhook:

    @knp7765:

    Once Paris is captured by the Axis, any other French territory that is captured by the Axis then RE-captured by the Allies will have it’s IPC value going to the liberating power.  Also, that liberating power can use any facilities on that territory (ICs, naval bases & air bases).

    Are these original (alpha2) rules?!?!?! Or is it what you suggest?

    is original, in original as in alpha, as in every AAA game i think
    only if paris is recaptured, bordeaux returns french.



  • Ok, well that changes everything.

    Sorry for that.



  • Imagine the level of detail a game would need to accurately represent every aspect of WW2. It would be all but impossible - but could be interesting to play though 😄
    Some things must given to be able to make a board game.



  • Now you’re talking Advanced Third Reich, but to play that game you need 1 to 2 pro’s to walk you through it.  Try reading the rulebook, I believe its 40 pages…and then there’s the supplement.

    I think they did a great job with France, other than vastly under-representing their navy, which could be under-represented because most of the ships went vichy anyways.  I look at France after the fall of Paris as vichy.  They don’t earn money and if the allies decide to protect their french holdings they don’t get paid for them.  France can’t produce.

    As Italy, I cringe when I have to take French spots because I know US is wetting its lips at the idea of money in africa.  Lately I have been falling back in Libya and fighting the french there, moving into Tunisia-Morocco is just handing ipcs to US.



  • @JimmyHat:

    As Italy, I cringe when I have to take French spots because I know US is wetting its lips at the idea of money in africa.  Lately I have been falling back in Libya and fighting the french there, moving into Tunisia-Morocco is just handing ipcs to US.

    I know, in our games Italy is hesitant to take french territories as well (except for Syria, of course)
    I liked that 2nd option from an allied view, makes it more useful for UK and US to walk around in Africa. (though i don’t think the rules are bad as they are)
    Edit: but from Axis view, Italy doesn’t have to be shy to take them anymore.



  • @JimmyHat:

    Try reading the rulebook, I believe its 40 pages…and then there’s the supplement.

    I think there is a difference between not reading the rulebook and misinterpreting certain of it’s aspects. 🙂



  • ??  I was referring to Advanced third reich in the post, A3R’s rulebook is really large.  Take a look at it sometime.



  • Advanced Third Reich is a beast! I remembering playing that 10+ years ago. We play tested that and Rising Sun. Many games out there much more complicated than A&A.



  • Yes, France is underrepresented. Its somthing I have fret about since the game of Europe 1940 first came out. The game has to maintain balance, and for this reason, France must be weak.  😢


  • Customizer

    I tried a game once where I changed the alliances and made France an Axis partner with Germany and Italy.  This way, France was able to last a while and purchase units.  It was kind of neat for a change.



  • I really wouldn’t mind more realistic french rules.
    The N African provnices should go Vichey (let Germany have them, but cannot move the french infantry out of them).
    FIC should be taken over by Japan without violating their NO. 
    All the rest should go Free French (british) - or maybe allow france to accumulate income and buy french infantry.


  • '10

    I too recognized this as a problem.  I posted the below HOUSE RULE both here and on Larry’s Forum.  It has been very popular and even given a little “thumbs up” by the creator himself, although he said it would not be incorporated into the Alpha2 rules.  I play with this all the time and it makes playing the French more enjoyable, without upsetting game balance.

    FREE FRENCH RULES 1.0

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=21892.0

    Here it is:

    THE CASE OF FRANCE

    I feel that France is just a “road bump” in this game and really does not pay tribute to the Contribution to Allied victory made by Frenchmen and Colonial subjects Worldwide. In all the games I have played France has been all but wiped out by turn 2/3.  However FREE FRENCH all over the globe were gathering and fighting for final victory throughout the war.  During the last half of the war their numbers were growing.  This sadly is not played out in the Game.

    The Growing FREE FRENCH

    _I have given France the ability to build new units even though Paris is under the Axis boot.  They are produced in the same way Chinese Forces are produced in AA50 (With revision)  France can build ONE INFANTRY unit per turn.  This unit can be placed on any original and Allied controlled FRENCH territory that is not Axis Occupied or controlled.  This will recreate the slow build of FREE FRENCH forces coming from all over the Empire but not allow them to over power the Axis at any one point alone.  Indeed they will sometimes be a burden to the Western Allies as they may need to be Transported around etc… as was the case.  If every FRENCH territory on the Game board is AXIS controlled, than the unit will be built in LONDON. (If London is not also AXIS controlled)

    The French did indeed have a substantial Military Force in INDO-CHINA as they were fighting the Communists in the Second Indo-China War in 1940.  I have represented this by adding 1 INF to the territory in the start up._

    This is a very SMALL change and fun HOUSE RULE.  Allowing France to remain a part of the game, even if in a very minor role.  Even in a supporting role they will also be able to take part in Final Victory!



  • Very interesting house rule, I like its simplicity, however, I can’t say that I am in favor of giving the Allies any more “benefits” if the Axis are static. Many of us are intelligent amateur historians, but I find that game play has been taking a back seat to historical accuracy in most of these forum discussions.

    A perfect example of this is the new infamous bombing raid rules, before the 1940 releases, I saw some house rule posts here suggesting  that for the sake of “historic accuracy” there should be interceptors and escorts during bombing raids. Larry listened and vola, a perfectly balanced game mechanic became nothing more than a full page explanation in the rule book.

    Since than it has been a major problem for my groups because some want to make new house rules, some want to go to the old classic rules and some want to play strictly by the book (which translates to no bombing raids).

    My point is, ya the french are under represented, but not as much as previous games when the blue guys didn’t even exist. We could talk about the hundreds of Canadian frigates in the Atlantic, or the Courageous Polish Calvary, or if you really want historic accuracy, we could give Germany an economic NO boost for using millions of Jews for slave labour.

    I just believe that solving the game play issues is more important right now than solving the historic accuracy issues.



  • @FieldMarshalGames : I like your suggestion. I think that this is a good and simple way to represent the French forces who continued to fight after the surrender of Paris.

    @Young Grasshopper : As a matter of fact you’re right too. There is so many details of history that could have a place is this game. It’s ok to have a set of rules as faithful to reality as possible but don’t forget it’s only a board game.

    Personally when I want to play a game that is 100% faithful to historical fact I play a tabletop RPG…I use the GURPS system by Steve Jackson Games. It is so realistic that I can really have the feeling I’m part of it…there is nothing best !!



  • I agree, we should leave histories micro details to the volumes of role playing books.

    I truly love the Global game but it is really difficult to teach new players who didn’t have the benefit of learning the simpler and more basic Classic version. With all the new variables I fear that A&A is drifting away from that pure simplicity I liked in the original board game.

    When ever someone approaches me and asks if I will teach them how to play, the first thing I warn them is that its a very complex game which takes a lot of time to understand. Sometimes I feel like stripping the game down to its core, but no-one will play that game with me (lol).


  • Customizer

    I agree with you Young Grasshopper.  I love the A&A board games because they are somewhat simple.  Yeah, they got a lot of rules, especially the 1940 versions with all the political situations.  However, compared to something like the A&A Miniatures games, the board games are much simpler.  I tried getting into the more tactical level games, but there was just too much to remember.  When you have to keep referring to the rulebook for almost every movement or battle, you start losing the fun of the game.

    This is one thing that kind of worries me about the people that want to keep adding stuff to A&A like new units, different classes of units (light tanks, medium tanks, heavy tanks, tank destroyers, etc.) and specialized units like Soviet Guards, Waffen SS, US Marines and such.  There are even some who want to incorporate a 12 sided dice system.  I like the 6 sided dice we currently use.  Plus, you can’t get FMG Combat Dice in 12 side.  These things make me worry that the A&A board games are starting to get too complex.



  • @knp7765:

    I agree with you Young Grasshopper.  I love the A&A board games because they are somewhat simple.  Yeah, they got a lot of rules, especially the 1940 versions with all the political situations.  However, compared to something like the A&A Miniatures games, the board games are much simpler.  I tried getting into the more tactical level games, but there was just too much to remember.  When you have to keep referring to the rulebook for almost every movement or battle, you start losing the fun of the game.

    This is one thing that kind of worries me about the people that want to keep adding stuff to A&A like new units, different classes of units (light tanks, medium tanks, heavy tanks, tank destroyers, etc.) and specialized units like Soviet Guards, Waffen SS, US Marines and such.  There are even some who want to incorporate a 12 sided dice system.  I like the 6 sided dice we currently use.  Plus, you can’t get FMG Combat Dice in 12 side.  These things make me worry that the A&A board games are starting to get too complex.

    HALALUYA!

    When I see some of the house rules being suggested, adding in all those things you mentioned, it really takes away the character of the game. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for house rules and tweeking as long as they run parallel to the core mechanics of Axis & Allies. some people want to add game mechanics that look a lot like “The Third Reich”, Memoirs 44, or even War Hammer. I believe A&A house rules should look like A&A rules. a perfect example is the navy and air bases, I love these units because they are simple yet add so much to game play.



  • If you want to add in an active Free french, then I really think you need to add in Vichy rules, especially for North Africa.  Also the French navy needs to be increased a little, considering the historical French Navy, France is missing a Battleship and a transport and some of it (probably a Cruiser) should start out off the coast of FIC.



  • @FieldMarshalGames:

    The Growing FREE FRENCH

    _I have given France the ability to build new units even though Paris is under the Axis boot.  They are produced in the same way Chinese Forces are produced in AA50 (With revision)  France can build ONE INFANTRY unit per turn.  This unit can be placed on any original and Allied controlled FRENCH territory that is not Axis Occupied or controlled.  This will recreate the slow build of FREE FRENCH forces coming from all over the Empire but not allow them to over power the Axis at any one point alone.  Indeed they will sometimes be a burden to the Western Allies as they may need to be Transported around etc… as was the case.  If every FRENCH territory on the Game board is AXIS controlled, than the unit will be built in LONDON. (If London is not also AXIS controlled)

    The French did indeed have a substantial Military Force in INDO-CHINA as they were fighting the Communists in the Second Indo-China War in 1940.  I have represented this by adding 1 INF to the territory in the start up._

    This is an awesome house rule and I think my playing group will adopt it. This provides a unique opportunity in a number of creative and fun ways to play the often neglected areas of the board. Thank you for sharing this one!



  • What did the French contribute? Other than allowing the English to sink their warships at oran i cant think of much. The french did more harm to the allies than to the axis because of their willingness to give their ships over to the nazis because of mere pride.



  • Not all French were bad. There was the French underground. They didn’t do much but did do something. But mostly I agree w/you.


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