No Strategies out there hey?
German strategy for building AC
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OK, last night with limited time I mocked up round 1. I did indeed end up with a board looking much like Nix’s heading into SU2, except I may have made a mistake by leaving 3inf in Belo, because E.Eur has only 4inf. Egypt went so well the Germans lost only 1inf, so there’s 1inf 2arm there plus 1inf 1art 1F in Libya. Africa will fall quickly. I like to park the bomber back in Germany.
Depending on how many Russian fighters there are and the Allied Atlantic fleet situation, I may choose to leave anywhere from 0 to 3 infantry in a territory. You leave 0 infantry if you want Russia to blitz the territory. (You can blitz right back). Usually, though, you want to leave at least 1 infantry in a territory to force Russia to commit forces to recapturing the territory.
Here are the problem areas: after SU2 the Russians hold: W.Rus 6inf, 2art, 4arm, 2F(UK) amd Cauc 5inf, 1art, 2F, Ukraine 6inf, Belo 2inf, plus 5inf reserve in Russia and 2inf in Kaz, so their lines are not exactly paper thin. That means SU has 24inf 3art 4arm 2F + 2F(UK) on or near the front, whereas the Germans have 14inf 1art 5 arm 2F(AC) between E.Eur/Ger/Balk/SZ5. (5 extra inf or 3arm instead of the AC would come in handy.) UK1 I lost 4 IPCs to sbr, so 38 IPCs to 28 for SU is not a huge lead; even with extra IPCs, it will take several turns to match the numbers of the SU, let alone gain the advantage. US2 threatens sbr as well.
What is “SU2”? 6 inf in Ukraine really doesn’t sound right for the start of Germany’s first turn. So Germany would have had time to counter that Russian turn.
The navy looks great in SZ5 with 1AC 2sub 1DD 1tr, and that will let me funnel 2 extra ground units per turn into Karel, so I see the benefit there. However, after R2 SZ8 has: UK 1BB 3tr 1AC w/ US 2F, US 2tr 1DD, SU 1sub. Even with 3F in W.Eur and 1bom, I would be hard-pressed to attack that on G2 – Allies can give up 1DD 1sub 1 hit on BB before I kill anything meaningful, whereas I would probably lose several F. By the time I would move out of SZ5 within range of SZ8, I assume the Allies will have even more strength. I guess the point is to stall the Allies’ navies, at least temporarily, to buy time for Japan, but I will probably lose airpower I cannot afford to replace.
Yeah, the Baltic carrier is for stalling. Basically, you sit on the Baltic fleet. If a small Allied fleet gets in range, you kick its ass with the mighty Luftwaffe. If a big Allied fleet gets in range, you kick its ass with the Luftwaffe AND the German navy. (You lose the German navy to the Allied air attack on the Allied turn, though). Of course, the Allies might just build this gigantic air force and kick the Baltic navy’s ass. That’s always a potential problem. Not much you can do about it though.
US2 could land in Africa or Norway, with a second wave already waiting in E.US. UK2 threatens Norway with 4inf 1art 1arm, so if I take Karel in force I’ll be surrounded. Not to mention W.Eur may need reinforcements. As far as the argument I’ve heard that UK must worry about the Kreigsmarine, I wonder why; UK will build at least 4inf 1art 1arm each turn anyway for its transports and the US may park its units there as a staging ground, so I see no actual threat of SeaLion. Add to that the 8IPC fewer ground units for each transport Germany would build, and SU only grows stronger.
Sure, US can land early in Africa/Norway, but that’s just the way it goes. If US commits its transports that early to Norway, though, you should be able to decimate the transports with Luftwaffe or Luftwaffe/navy. If the US goes to Africa, possibly the same thing. Remember, fighters should be based at Western Europe, or possibly, Norway.
Being surrounded at Karelia is not a problem. The Allies usually do not build a mighty ATTACK force at Norway, they are usually just concerned with holding Norway. Which means, basically - if they built a load of infantry, likely, then they can attack with their loads of infantry, but you should still be able to win because of reinforcements from Eastern Europe. If the Allies built tanks, they won’t have a lot of numbers early, plus you can counter their attack on your turn and kill their expensive Allied tanks at minimal cost (paid in German infantry). If the Allies built infantry and tanks and fighters, well, it’s not like that happens overnight. Germany has plenty of time to respond.
SeaLion is not really “rawr, Imma eat London!” It’s really more like “rawr, Imma eat London, or maybe whatever Allied fleet you have around London! Also Imma eat Karelia as a snack. Also other rawrish things!” You say that London will produce 4 inf 1 art 1 tank a turn (I disagree, I would far rather go pure infantry most of the time), but really, if London is saving all that up, then what is happening on the rest of the board? London is NOT sending those units to Europe (if London is depleted, Germany goes RAWR), London has to build a defensive fleet for those transports (or else the German fleet and Luftwaffe can go RAWR), etc. etc.
Which is not to say that I think SeaLion is a solid game plan, but I do think that SeaLion is a solid COUNTERTHREAT to some Allied moves.
I understand this plan requires an aggressive Japan to move against SU. Unfortunately, UK sunk the Kwang transport and the SZ45 sub and holds India with 4inf 1F. Of course J1 took China and sunk the US at Pearl, but only 2 ground units could then be moved onto Asia during NC. It will take time for Japan to mount a sizable threat from the east.
Japan’s first turn, you build 3 transports and 1 tank. Always. Because I am a gen1us! No, seriously, here’s why. First, you can’t build four transports, you only have IPCs for three. So you build three. And you build a tank, because tanks are very flexible and threatening and blitzy and cool stuff, plus you can already fill your tranports with Jap infantry and stuff. You don’t really need another artillery or another two infantry. Use those Jap transports to pull infantry off the islands. Now what happens? If the Allies decide to go KJF, you have naval fodder (transports). If the Allies decide to go KGF, you can build an industrial complex in French Indochina, and use those transports to pull infantry off the islands / take Australia, New Guinea, New Zealand, support Africa, etc. I usually end up with an absolute minimum of 5 transports with Japan. Often 7.
I think I see why I need to learn about the bid system! :-D
Yes, my young Padawan.
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What is “SU2”?Â
Sorry, SU=Soviet Union, so that’s the Soviet’s 2nd turn. My latest post is talking about the way the board looks heading into Germany’s 2nd turn (“G2”).
Being surrounded at Karelia is not a problem. The Allies usually do not build a mighty ATTACK force at Norway, they are usually just concerned with holding Norway.
Yes, but let’s say G2 takes Karel, but then SU3 moves 5-6inf into Arch, so even if Allies only hold Norway 1 round, can Germany defend Karel from both sides? (Remember, W.Rus has 6inf 2art 4arm, so SU has offensive punch.)
My main problem with the strategies discussed for Germany is that many of them seem to assume that SU is simply sitting around waiting to get crushed, whereas in my experience it grows quickly into a monster if not repeatedly attacked from turn 1 forward by German ground units, ground units and more ground units (with fighter support and possibly even sbr).
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My main problem with the strategies discussed for Germany is that many of them seem to assume that SU is simply sitting around waiting to get crushed, whereas in my experience it grows quickly into a monster if not repeatedly attacked from turn 1 forward by German ground units, ground units and more ground units (with fighter support and possibly even sbr).
This is true. And why you have to be careful about a G1 AC purchase.
I’m generally not a fan of it.
I think if Russia attacks both Wrus and Belo (or Ukr), you may run into trouble with the AC purchase. Now if Russia took severe losses in the battles you might be able to make do with the minus 5 inf (cost of AC).
But if Russia does avg to good in the battles then you could be asking for trouble.I think there are too many work arounds for the Allies for 1 AC for the Baltic to scare them.
I think if you want to go the naval route then it my be best to try for the fleet unification (Sea Lion Scare) which means buying 3 trns instead. or 1 AC, 1-2 trns.
You will be hurting bigtime against Russia early but at least you have a shot at this fleet possibly making it to the Med if combined with the sub, trn, bb near the Med.
IMO, the idea of the AC is more of a long term plan, thus you have to be patient early. You may not be able to trade everything with Russia. You’ve lost 5 inf, due to the AC, 2 more units to Egy on G1, plus 2 more units to Egy on G2 (if UK countered on UK1). That is a lot of units, esp if Russia came out guns a blazing in Wrus and Belo/Ukr.
Ideally, you need to do well in Afr for the rounds 2-4, build up EE in the meantime and then make your move in rd 4-5 or so, once you’ve hopefully been able to reap the benefits of the Afr income and added boost of maybe holding/trading Nor longer than 1-2 rds.
All this being said if I went AC, 8 inf.
I’d pull back everything to EE, leaving 1 inf in Ukr, I wouldn’t counter Belo, but I’d take Kar.
I’d hit Egy. (I would have also placed my bid, if any, in Lib).
I’d also probably leave only inf and ftrs in WE, armor should be in EE to threaten against an aggressive Russia.
Place at least 2 inf in SE. -
And that is how you bid!
:lol: newpaintbrush, that’s funny, have you actually pulled off G1 London blitz in a tournament?!
I think there are too many work arounds for the Allies for 1 AC for the Baltic to scare them.
Agreed, Darth.
I’d pull back everything to EE, leaving 1 inf in Ukr, I wouldn’t counter Belo, but I’d take Kar.
I’d hit Egy. (I would have also placed my bid, if any, in Lib).
I’d also probably leave only inf and ftrs in WE, armor should be in EE to threaten against an aggressive Russia.
Place at least 2 inf in SE.Righto, that’s pretty much where I’m at. Except there was no bid, so I’m at a disadvantage. Anyway, tonight I’ll play a few more rounds and see if I can make this work for Germany…
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What is “SU2”?Â
Sorry, SU=Soviet Union, so that’s the Soviet’s 2nd turn. My latest post is talking about the way the board looks heading into Germany’s 2nd turn (“G2”).
after SU2 the Russians hold: W.Rus 6inf, 2art, 4arm, 2F(UK) amd Cauc 5inf, 1art, 2F, Ukraine 6inf, Belo 2inf, plus 5inf reserve in Russia and 2inf in Kaz, so their lines are not exactly paper thin.
That does look pretty similar to a lot of games I’ve seen, with the exception that Ukraine is pretty built up. I assume that Germany DID hold Ukraine at the end of G1, but that Russia captured Ukraine on SU2. (Germany shouldn’t let Ukraine be held by the Soviets after G1). If that was the case, and Russia commits forces to the Ukraine, it runs into the problem of a German attack, which can come in two flavors.
The first flavor is Germany attacking with moderate forces, and pulling back; after Germany retreats, it moves infantry up to reinforce for a strong and threatening position. Russia can’t counterattack (noplace to counterattack to because the German defense is so strong), and Russia loses maybe 4-5 infantry in exchange for 2-ish German infantry.
The second flavor is Germany going kitchen sink attack, and maniacally attacking Ukraine, trying to suck Russia’s forces into the west, while Japan attacks from the east.
Germany COULD get unlucky. The worst case scenario for Germany is Germany attacking with moderate forces, ACCIDENTALLY wiping out all the infantry in Ukraine, thus being forced to take and hold the Ukraine, thus being vulnerable to Russian attack from West Russia and Ukraine.
Germany could ALSO get lucky. The best case scenario for Germany is attacking with moderate forces, wiping out the Ukraine forces with no losses, and being able to reinforce Ukraine to a degree that Russia will find it horribly costly to attack.
Being surrounded at Karelia is not a problem. The Allies usually do not build a mighty ATTACK force at Norway, they are usually just concerned with holding Norway.
Yes, but let’s say G2 takes Karel, but then SU3 moves 5-6inf into Arch, so even if Allies only hold Norway 1 round, can Germany defend Karel from both sides? (Remember, W.Rus has 6inf 2art 4arm, so SU has offensive punch.)
Germany can hold Karelia for a long ass time, because infantry marched up from Germany into Eastern Europe hit Karelia next turn. The major problem with Norway is that if Germany hits Norway early or late, that’s forces diverted from Russia. Imagine, if you had a lot of German stuff in Karelia on G2, and attacked Norway; those units would march back to Karelia on G3, and into Archangel on G4. But instead of attacking Karelia on G2, you COULD have attacked Archangel on G2 . . . two turns of difference. Pretty significant.What you mention is quite right, though. It is a pain to try to hold Karelia. But there are two things to keep in mind. First, if Germany doesn’t control Karelia, the Allies can get a transport chain going from London to Archangel, and feed forces into Moscow. This is a big pain in the ass for Germany. Second, although that first point is true, Germany CAN afford to NOT beef up Karelia. (There usually isn’t a problem with beefing up Karelia, but Germany can afford to go the southern route as well).
That is - if Germany beefs up at Ukraine, threatning W. Russia / Caucasus, Russia will almost certainly not be able to defend W. Russia, Caucasus, AND Archangel. Russia will have to pull back from Archangel, or Russia will lose W. Russia (very bad positionally), or Caucasus (very bad because Germany can now drop four more units a turn right near Moscow).
Conversely, if Germany beefs up at Archangel, Russian forces concentrated at W. Russia/Caucasus or Ukraine have to be diverted north.
The trick is threatening Russia on the north and the south.
My main problem with the strategies discussed for Germany is that many of them seem to assume that SU is simply sitting around waiting to get crushed, whereas in my experience it grows quickly into a monster if not repeatedly attacked from turn 1 forward by German ground units, ground units and more ground units (with fighter support and possibly even sbr).
Hope you’re not talking about me . . . I assume that SU runs around trying to snatch German territory, only giving ground when forced. I often build 8 infantry in Moscow on SU1, but that’s an AGGRESSIVE move for control of Karelia/Belorussia/Ukraine on SU3.
And that is how you bid!
:lol: newpaintbrush, that’s funny, have you actually pulled off G1 London blitz in a tournament?!
Nope. The closest I’ve come was G2 SeaLion. It was pretty obvious, but the Allies didn’t see it coming. I won a mug. :lol:
I think there are too many work arounds for the Allies for 1 AC for the Baltic to scare them.
Agreed, Darth.
Yeah, Caspian Sub Yahoo group has a paper mentioning that 2-3 transports could be a better Baltic purchase. It’s interesting. Right now, I haven’t really decided whether a carrier, 2-3 transports, or NO buy for the Baltic is better. I don’t know if there’s a clear-cut answer; it probably depends on the Russian moves. But I’m pretty sure that with more analysis, I can figure out the optimal response dependent on the situation.
I’d pull back everything to EE, leaving 1 inf in Ukr, I wouldn’t counter Belo, but I’d take Kar.
I’d hit Egy. (I would have also placed my bid, if any, in Lib).
I’d also probably leave only inf and ftrs in WE, armor should be in EE to threaten against an aggressive Russia.
Place at least 2 inf in SE. -
Yeah, in my last couple games I’ve played, both online and FTF, I haven’t bought an AC at all. I’ve either bought a destroyer or nothing at all. I haven’t really toyed with any other buy, because I’m slightly paranoid that if I buy more sea than groundpounders, I’ll be overrun by the Russian hordes screaming “URRAH!” I might go back to the AC, who knows. That 2 tranny buy sounds like a good one, just to distract the Allies while at the same time making it lighly more costly for them to attack me (although with only 3 “1s” and 1 “3”, just how costly for them attacking me is a big headscratcher.
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Never seriously considered trannies in the Baltic. Might be nice with all the added mobility around Europe.
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Jennifer:Â Never seriously considered trannies in the Baltic.Â
Me, too. Now this thread is truly on a parallel track with newpaintbrush’s.
newpaintbrush:Â I assume that Germany DID hold Ukraine at the end of G1, but that Russia captured Ukraine on SU2.Â
Correct.
newpaintbrush:Â But instead of attacking Karelia on G2, you COULD have attacked Archangel on G2
No, R (for Russia – punting on my “SU” designation! :-)) held Kar, Belo and W.Rus after R2. Actually what I did G2 was attack Kar with 2inf 1ftr, wol. I slow-played to allow more time to build up E.Eur, which had only 4inf 1art 5arm after G1, IIRC. I felt I needed more inf before going into Kar with big stack.
newpaintbrush:Â The trick is threatening Russia on the north and the south.
I wonder if I’m doing something wrong, because the numbers don’t add up for me to threaten both north and south. After G3 I have ONE big stack in E.Eur: 10inf 1art 5arm, whereas R has big stacks in Cauc and W.Rus (combined 20inf 4art 4arm, IIRC). I am trying to build up E.Eur, but that is the best I could do. Anywhere I move my big stack could leave a void for R to exploit. I need another turn for 12inf in Ger to advance.
newpaintbrush:Â Hope you’re not talking about me
No, newpaintbrush, not you or really anyone in particular. It’s just that I see so many posts from players who say they crush the Allies with this or that strategy but do not include the kinds of details I would need to understand their strategies, and that’s frustrating for me because I have never found a consistent way to do well with Germany, especially if Allies use KGF. However, you, Darth, Nix, Jennifer, ncscswitch to name a few are very helpful with detailed advice! :-)
With that said, my AAR for today: heading into J3 things are so-so for the Axis. Panzers took all Africa except S.Afr, and Trans-Jordan fell, but Norway was lost, and R holds Ukr, Belo, W.Rus, Kar. J has not hit its stride yet; just the simple move UK1 destroy J DD in SZ59 makes a significant impact on J’s early game! R3 took Sink back, so J has not made much headway. IC in Kwang and 3trn in SZ61 should get things rolling soon. UK has abandoned India, and US has all but abandoned Pacific due to KGF, so J should now expand.
Back to Germany: once I had a real navy, I wasn’t sure exactly what to do with it. Don’t know if this was a huge mistake or not, but I decided to go for fleet unification. G2 moved from SZ5 to SZ7; Russia went for block by moving sub to SZ12, preventing G3 unification in SZ13. G3 moved SZ7 to SZ12, sinking sub wol. 1BB 1trn moved SZ15 to SZ13. Can the Allies prevent unification?
Well, US has 1BB 1DD 3trn in SZ10, plus 4ftr from ACs in SZ8, so the Kriegsmarine will probably be sunk US3, albeit at a high price for the Americans. The long-term consequences of that battle remain to be seen…
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Yeah, in my last couple games I’ve played, both online and FTF, I haven’t bought an AC at all. I’ve either bought a destroyer or nothing at all. I haven’t really toyed with any other buy, because I’m slightly paranoid that if I buy more sea than groundpounders, I’ll be overrun by the Russian hordes screaming "URRAH!" I might go back to the AC, who knows. That 2 tranny buy sounds like a good one, just to distract the Allies while at the same time making it lighly more costly for them to attack me (although with only 3 “1s” and 1 “3”, just how costly for them attacking me is a big headscratcher.
I’ve never understood the fear of being crushed by USSR if Germany has a fleet.
G starts with 23 Inf, 3 art, 9 tanks and 6 fighters in Europe. USSR has 24 Inf, 2 art, 4 arm, 2 fighters (6 inf of which are in the east and need time to march west).
USSR just doesnt have the troops to “overrun” Germany. This assumes, of course, that you are using your fleet to prevent UK/USA incursions.
Squirecam
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G starts with 23 Inf, 3 art, 9 tanks and 6 fighters in Europe.
Yes, but not all 23inf are in range to threaten Russia, and most players seem to advocate placing 3-4ftrs on WEur to discourage Allied incursions.
USSR just doesnt have the troops to “overrun” Germany.
Right, not “overrun” Germany but I’m just saying in the game I’m in now after G3 the Russians still outnumber my G inf almost 2-1 on the front lines. Yes, Germany should catch up, but it takes time, primarily because I spent IPCs on naval units. I just don’t see how I can prevent being placed in a 2-front war against Allies that know what they are doing.
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G starts with 23 Inf, 3 art, 9 tanks and 6 fighters in Europe.
Yes, but not all 23inf are in range to threaten Russia, and most players seem to advocate placing 3-4ftrs on WEur to discourage Allied incursions.
USSR just doesnt have the troops to “overrun” Germany.
Right, not “overrun” Germany but I’m just saying in the game I’m in now after G3 the Russians still outnumber my G inf almost 2-1 on the front lines. Yes, Germany should catch up, but it takes time, primarily because I spent IPCs on naval units. I just don’t see how I can prevent being placed in a 2-front war against Allies that know what they are doing.
You are already IN a 2 front war to start with. The allies are going KGF. You have 2 options.
- Try to get Russia while trading/defending WE and hoping you suceed faster than the allies can help….or
- Trade Belo/UKR/Karelia with USSR while stopping the allies in the water.
If you try #2, you are NOT going to get past trading with USSR for the first few rounds. That’s just a fact of life.
Also, if USSR outnumbers your infantry 2-1 on the front lines, I think you are doing something wrong. They should not have such an advantage unless their dice were so great and yours so bad. What are you buying???
Squirecam
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Just a thought, but since we’re talking the strengths of Russia vs Germany, I don’t think I’m completely off topic (as the topic has developed a bit)
Couldnt you bid for a Restricted Russia and then no longer need an axis bid? How would that effect game play?
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that would kill the Allies.
But on the topic of being outnumbered by Russia, NO BIG DEAL, why? becuse you defend better then Russia can attack, he will most likley lack offensive punch.
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Just a thought, but since we’re talking the strengths of Russia vs Germany, I don’t think I’m completely off topic (as the topic has developed a bit)
Couldnt you bid for a Restricted Russia and then no longer need an axis bid? How would that effect game play?
Agree with Nix.
Germany keeps WR…. Very bad for allies. Very bad…
Squirecam
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Jennifer, please hold that thought for a second, I was replying to squirecam.
What are you buying???
To review, the basis for the thread was G1 1AC 12inf. Â G2 I had only 38 IPCs due to sbr by UK, so I bought 8inf 1art 2arm. Â G3 I bought 12inf 1arm, and I’ve only just finished UK3, so those 12inf are in Germany. Â Due to attrition (e.g. taking back Ukraine G2 with 2inf 1ftr, taking Karel 2inf 1ftr, then losing those infantry to counter-attacks), I have only 10inf in E.Eur, 1inf in Balkans, Russia holds WRus, Ukr, Belo, Karel, UK holds Norway. Â Believe me, I’ve tried, but I couldn’t do better than one big stack in EEur with 10inf 1art 5arm. Â I’ve basically followed the moves ad described by experienced members of the forum who have played G1 1AC 12inf. Â My goal is to see how that initial buy plays out, and not surprisingly it has led to an early Russian lead. :-) Â But I am far from giving up hope!
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Couldnt you bid for a Restricted Russia and then no longer need an axis bid? How would that effect game play?
In the original A&A, restricted Russia was one way to make it a bit tougher on the Allies. In Revised, I’m not sure I would want to play a Restricted Russia! I agree with Nix. WRus is too critical.
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Jennifer, please hold that thought for a second, I was replying to squirecam.
What are you buying???
To review, the basis for the thread was G1 1AC 12inf. Â G2 I had only 38 IPCs due to sbr by UK, so I bought 8inf 1art 2arm. Â
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I presume you have 5 fighters still. You do NOT need armor or artillery. You are trading Belo/Karelia/Ukr. This requires sacrificing INFANTRY, not armor. G2 buy should be as much INF as possible, with art/tank left over. In this case, 11 Inf, 1 armor.
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A sea purchase usually causes UK to fear 2 things, invasion and merger. I dont think you tried to merge. So the AC by itself wont stop the UK/USA from gathering to destroy you (as you are finding out). If you build an AC you must threaten to do something substantial with it.
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see post above. USSR cant have the O power to defeat your D strength… (or wouldn’t with all INF buys)
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Trying to follow a “script”, even a “master’s” usually results in trouble. The best thing you can do is learn to think “outside the box”, experiment, and try to determine overall strategies and counters. Dont be tied down to one “set” way of doing things.
Squirecam
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@Nix:
that would kill the Allies.
But on the topic of being outnumbered by Russia, NO BIG DEAL, why? becuse you defend better then Russia can attack, he will most likley lack offensive punch.
Likewise, if Germany buys ships and Russia moves in to hold Ukr early it becomes very hard or costly (or both) to push them out.
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- A sea purchase usually causes UK to fear 2 things, invasion and merger. I dont think you tried to merge. So the AC by itself wont stop the UK/USA from gathering to destroy you (as you are finding out). If you build an AC you must threaten to do something substantial with it.
I bolded the important part.
Edit: Just to clarify.
I don’t think a sole AC purchase threatens much of anything.
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- A sea purchase usually causes UK to fear 2 things, invasion and merger. I dont think you tried to merge. So the AC by itself wont stop the UK/USA from gathering to destroy you (as you are finding out). If you build an AC you must threaten to do something substantial with it.
I bolded the important part.
Buying an AC alone won’t do that. At least not IMO.
Depends. Sometimes it will sometimes not.
Squirecam
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