Also bear in mind that the fighter is not lost immediately when the carrier is sunk. It continues to fight in the air until either it is taken as a casualty or the end of the battle.
German strategy for building AC
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What is “SU2”?Â
Sorry, SU=Soviet Union, so that’s the Soviet’s 2nd turn. My latest post is talking about the way the board looks heading into Germany’s 2nd turn (“G2”).
Being surrounded at Karelia is not a problem. The Allies usually do not build a mighty ATTACK force at Norway, they are usually just concerned with holding Norway.
Yes, but let’s say G2 takes Karel, but then SU3 moves 5-6inf into Arch, so even if Allies only hold Norway 1 round, can Germany defend Karel from both sides? (Remember, W.Rus has 6inf 2art 4arm, so SU has offensive punch.)
My main problem with the strategies discussed for Germany is that many of them seem to assume that SU is simply sitting around waiting to get crushed, whereas in my experience it grows quickly into a monster if not repeatedly attacked from turn 1 forward by German ground units, ground units and more ground units (with fighter support and possibly even sbr).
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My main problem with the strategies discussed for Germany is that many of them seem to assume that SU is simply sitting around waiting to get crushed, whereas in my experience it grows quickly into a monster if not repeatedly attacked from turn 1 forward by German ground units, ground units and more ground units (with fighter support and possibly even sbr).
This is true. And why you have to be careful about a G1 AC purchase.
I’m generally not a fan of it.
I think if Russia attacks both Wrus and Belo (or Ukr), you may run into trouble with the AC purchase. Now if Russia took severe losses in the battles you might be able to make do with the minus 5 inf (cost of AC).
But if Russia does avg to good in the battles then you could be asking for trouble.I think there are too many work arounds for the Allies for 1 AC for the Baltic to scare them.
I think if you want to go the naval route then it my be best to try for the fleet unification (Sea Lion Scare) which means buying 3 trns instead. or 1 AC, 1-2 trns.
You will be hurting bigtime against Russia early but at least you have a shot at this fleet possibly making it to the Med if combined with the sub, trn, bb near the Med.
IMO, the idea of the AC is more of a long term plan, thus you have to be patient early. You may not be able to trade everything with Russia. You’ve lost 5 inf, due to the AC, 2 more units to Egy on G1, plus 2 more units to Egy on G2 (if UK countered on UK1). That is a lot of units, esp if Russia came out guns a blazing in Wrus and Belo/Ukr.
Ideally, you need to do well in Afr for the rounds 2-4, build up EE in the meantime and then make your move in rd 4-5 or so, once you’ve hopefully been able to reap the benefits of the Afr income and added boost of maybe holding/trading Nor longer than 1-2 rds.
All this being said if I went AC, 8 inf.
I’d pull back everything to EE, leaving 1 inf in Ukr, I wouldn’t counter Belo, but I’d take Kar.
I’d hit Egy. (I would have also placed my bid, if any, in Lib).
I’d also probably leave only inf and ftrs in WE, armor should be in EE to threaten against an aggressive Russia.
Place at least 2 inf in SE. -
And that is how you bid!
:lol: newpaintbrush, that’s funny, have you actually pulled off G1 London blitz in a tournament?!
I think there are too many work arounds for the Allies for 1 AC for the Baltic to scare them.
Agreed, Darth.
I’d pull back everything to EE, leaving 1 inf in Ukr, I wouldn’t counter Belo, but I’d take Kar.
I’d hit Egy. (I would have also placed my bid, if any, in Lib).
I’d also probably leave only inf and ftrs in WE, armor should be in EE to threaten against an aggressive Russia.
Place at least 2 inf in SE.Righto, that’s pretty much where I’m at. Except there was no bid, so I’m at a disadvantage. Anyway, tonight I’ll play a few more rounds and see if I can make this work for Germany…
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What is “SU2”?Â
Sorry, SU=Soviet Union, so that’s the Soviet’s 2nd turn. My latest post is talking about the way the board looks heading into Germany’s 2nd turn (“G2”).
after SU2 the Russians hold: W.Rus 6inf, 2art, 4arm, 2F(UK) amd Cauc 5inf, 1art, 2F, Ukraine 6inf, Belo 2inf, plus 5inf reserve in Russia and 2inf in Kaz, so their lines are not exactly paper thin.
That does look pretty similar to a lot of games I’ve seen, with the exception that Ukraine is pretty built up. I assume that Germany DID hold Ukraine at the end of G1, but that Russia captured Ukraine on SU2. (Germany shouldn’t let Ukraine be held by the Soviets after G1). If that was the case, and Russia commits forces to the Ukraine, it runs into the problem of a German attack, which can come in two flavors.
The first flavor is Germany attacking with moderate forces, and pulling back; after Germany retreats, it moves infantry up to reinforce for a strong and threatening position. Russia can’t counterattack (noplace to counterattack to because the German defense is so strong), and Russia loses maybe 4-5 infantry in exchange for 2-ish German infantry.
The second flavor is Germany going kitchen sink attack, and maniacally attacking Ukraine, trying to suck Russia’s forces into the west, while Japan attacks from the east.
Germany COULD get unlucky. The worst case scenario for Germany is Germany attacking with moderate forces, ACCIDENTALLY wiping out all the infantry in Ukraine, thus being forced to take and hold the Ukraine, thus being vulnerable to Russian attack from West Russia and Ukraine.
Germany could ALSO get lucky. The best case scenario for Germany is attacking with moderate forces, wiping out the Ukraine forces with no losses, and being able to reinforce Ukraine to a degree that Russia will find it horribly costly to attack.
Being surrounded at Karelia is not a problem. The Allies usually do not build a mighty ATTACK force at Norway, they are usually just concerned with holding Norway.
Yes, but let’s say G2 takes Karel, but then SU3 moves 5-6inf into Arch, so even if Allies only hold Norway 1 round, can Germany defend Karel from both sides? (Remember, W.Rus has 6inf 2art 4arm, so SU has offensive punch.)
Germany can hold Karelia for a long ass time, because infantry marched up from Germany into Eastern Europe hit Karelia next turn. The major problem with Norway is that if Germany hits Norway early or late, that’s forces diverted from Russia. Imagine, if you had a lot of German stuff in Karelia on G2, and attacked Norway; those units would march back to Karelia on G3, and into Archangel on G4. But instead of attacking Karelia on G2, you COULD have attacked Archangel on G2 . . . two turns of difference. Pretty significant.What you mention is quite right, though. It is a pain to try to hold Karelia. But there are two things to keep in mind. First, if Germany doesn’t control Karelia, the Allies can get a transport chain going from London to Archangel, and feed forces into Moscow. This is a big pain in the ass for Germany. Second, although that first point is true, Germany CAN afford to NOT beef up Karelia. (There usually isn’t a problem with beefing up Karelia, but Germany can afford to go the southern route as well).
That is - if Germany beefs up at Ukraine, threatning W. Russia / Caucasus, Russia will almost certainly not be able to defend W. Russia, Caucasus, AND Archangel. Russia will have to pull back from Archangel, or Russia will lose W. Russia (very bad positionally), or Caucasus (very bad because Germany can now drop four more units a turn right near Moscow).
Conversely, if Germany beefs up at Archangel, Russian forces concentrated at W. Russia/Caucasus or Ukraine have to be diverted north.
The trick is threatening Russia on the north and the south.
My main problem with the strategies discussed for Germany is that many of them seem to assume that SU is simply sitting around waiting to get crushed, whereas in my experience it grows quickly into a monster if not repeatedly attacked from turn 1 forward by German ground units, ground units and more ground units (with fighter support and possibly even sbr).
Hope you’re not talking about me . . . I assume that SU runs around trying to snatch German territory, only giving ground when forced. I often build 8 infantry in Moscow on SU1, but that’s an AGGRESSIVE move for control of Karelia/Belorussia/Ukraine on SU3.
And that is how you bid!
:lol: newpaintbrush, that’s funny, have you actually pulled off G1 London blitz in a tournament?!
Nope. The closest I’ve come was G2 SeaLion. It was pretty obvious, but the Allies didn’t see it coming. I won a mug. :lol:
I think there are too many work arounds for the Allies for 1 AC for the Baltic to scare them.
Agreed, Darth.
Yeah, Caspian Sub Yahoo group has a paper mentioning that 2-3 transports could be a better Baltic purchase. It’s interesting. Right now, I haven’t really decided whether a carrier, 2-3 transports, or NO buy for the Baltic is better. I don’t know if there’s a clear-cut answer; it probably depends on the Russian moves. But I’m pretty sure that with more analysis, I can figure out the optimal response dependent on the situation.
I’d pull back everything to EE, leaving 1 inf in Ukr, I wouldn’t counter Belo, but I’d take Kar.
I’d hit Egy. (I would have also placed my bid, if any, in Lib).
I’d also probably leave only inf and ftrs in WE, armor should be in EE to threaten against an aggressive Russia.
Place at least 2 inf in SE. -
Yeah, in my last couple games I’ve played, both online and FTF, I haven’t bought an AC at all. I’ve either bought a destroyer or nothing at all. I haven’t really toyed with any other buy, because I’m slightly paranoid that if I buy more sea than groundpounders, I’ll be overrun by the Russian hordes screaming “URRAH!” I might go back to the AC, who knows. That 2 tranny buy sounds like a good one, just to distract the Allies while at the same time making it lighly more costly for them to attack me (although with only 3 “1s” and 1 “3”, just how costly for them attacking me is a big headscratcher.
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Never seriously considered trannies in the Baltic. Might be nice with all the added mobility around Europe.
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Jennifer:Â Never seriously considered trannies in the Baltic.Â
Me, too. Now this thread is truly on a parallel track with newpaintbrush’s.
newpaintbrush:Â I assume that Germany DID hold Ukraine at the end of G1, but that Russia captured Ukraine on SU2.Â
Correct.
newpaintbrush:Â But instead of attacking Karelia on G2, you COULD have attacked Archangel on G2
No, R (for Russia – punting on my “SU” designation! :-)) held Kar, Belo and W.Rus after R2. Actually what I did G2 was attack Kar with 2inf 1ftr, wol. I slow-played to allow more time to build up E.Eur, which had only 4inf 1art 5arm after G1, IIRC. I felt I needed more inf before going into Kar with big stack.
newpaintbrush:Â The trick is threatening Russia on the north and the south.
I wonder if I’m doing something wrong, because the numbers don’t add up for me to threaten both north and south. After G3 I have ONE big stack in E.Eur: 10inf 1art 5arm, whereas R has big stacks in Cauc and W.Rus (combined 20inf 4art 4arm, IIRC). I am trying to build up E.Eur, but that is the best I could do. Anywhere I move my big stack could leave a void for R to exploit. I need another turn for 12inf in Ger to advance.
newpaintbrush:Â Hope you’re not talking about me
No, newpaintbrush, not you or really anyone in particular. It’s just that I see so many posts from players who say they crush the Allies with this or that strategy but do not include the kinds of details I would need to understand their strategies, and that’s frustrating for me because I have never found a consistent way to do well with Germany, especially if Allies use KGF. However, you, Darth, Nix, Jennifer, ncscswitch to name a few are very helpful with detailed advice! :-)
With that said, my AAR for today: heading into J3 things are so-so for the Axis. Panzers took all Africa except S.Afr, and Trans-Jordan fell, but Norway was lost, and R holds Ukr, Belo, W.Rus, Kar. J has not hit its stride yet; just the simple move UK1 destroy J DD in SZ59 makes a significant impact on J’s early game! R3 took Sink back, so J has not made much headway. IC in Kwang and 3trn in SZ61 should get things rolling soon. UK has abandoned India, and US has all but abandoned Pacific due to KGF, so J should now expand.
Back to Germany: once I had a real navy, I wasn’t sure exactly what to do with it. Don’t know if this was a huge mistake or not, but I decided to go for fleet unification. G2 moved from SZ5 to SZ7; Russia went for block by moving sub to SZ12, preventing G3 unification in SZ13. G3 moved SZ7 to SZ12, sinking sub wol. 1BB 1trn moved SZ15 to SZ13. Can the Allies prevent unification?
Well, US has 1BB 1DD 3trn in SZ10, plus 4ftr from ACs in SZ8, so the Kriegsmarine will probably be sunk US3, albeit at a high price for the Americans. The long-term consequences of that battle remain to be seen…
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Yeah, in my last couple games I’ve played, both online and FTF, I haven’t bought an AC at all. I’ve either bought a destroyer or nothing at all. I haven’t really toyed with any other buy, because I’m slightly paranoid that if I buy more sea than groundpounders, I’ll be overrun by the Russian hordes screaming "URRAH!" I might go back to the AC, who knows. That 2 tranny buy sounds like a good one, just to distract the Allies while at the same time making it lighly more costly for them to attack me (although with only 3 “1s” and 1 “3”, just how costly for them attacking me is a big headscratcher.
I’ve never understood the fear of being crushed by USSR if Germany has a fleet.
G starts with 23 Inf, 3 art, 9 tanks and 6 fighters in Europe. USSR has 24 Inf, 2 art, 4 arm, 2 fighters (6 inf of which are in the east and need time to march west).
USSR just doesnt have the troops to “overrun” Germany. This assumes, of course, that you are using your fleet to prevent UK/USA incursions.
Squirecam
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G starts with 23 Inf, 3 art, 9 tanks and 6 fighters in Europe.
Yes, but not all 23inf are in range to threaten Russia, and most players seem to advocate placing 3-4ftrs on WEur to discourage Allied incursions.
USSR just doesnt have the troops to “overrun” Germany.
Right, not “overrun” Germany but I’m just saying in the game I’m in now after G3 the Russians still outnumber my G inf almost 2-1 on the front lines. Yes, Germany should catch up, but it takes time, primarily because I spent IPCs on naval units. I just don’t see how I can prevent being placed in a 2-front war against Allies that know what they are doing.
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G starts with 23 Inf, 3 art, 9 tanks and 6 fighters in Europe.
Yes, but not all 23inf are in range to threaten Russia, and most players seem to advocate placing 3-4ftrs on WEur to discourage Allied incursions.
USSR just doesnt have the troops to “overrun” Germany.
Right, not “overrun” Germany but I’m just saying in the game I’m in now after G3 the Russians still outnumber my G inf almost 2-1 on the front lines. Yes, Germany should catch up, but it takes time, primarily because I spent IPCs on naval units. I just don’t see how I can prevent being placed in a 2-front war against Allies that know what they are doing.
You are already IN a 2 front war to start with. The allies are going KGF. You have 2 options.
- Try to get Russia while trading/defending WE and hoping you suceed faster than the allies can help….or
- Trade Belo/UKR/Karelia with USSR while stopping the allies in the water.
If you try #2, you are NOT going to get past trading with USSR for the first few rounds. That’s just a fact of life.
Also, if USSR outnumbers your infantry 2-1 on the front lines, I think you are doing something wrong. They should not have such an advantage unless their dice were so great and yours so bad. What are you buying???
Squirecam
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Just a thought, but since we’re talking the strengths of Russia vs Germany, I don’t think I’m completely off topic (as the topic has developed a bit)
Couldnt you bid for a Restricted Russia and then no longer need an axis bid? How would that effect game play?
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that would kill the Allies.
But on the topic of being outnumbered by Russia, NO BIG DEAL, why? becuse you defend better then Russia can attack, he will most likley lack offensive punch.
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Just a thought, but since we’re talking the strengths of Russia vs Germany, I don’t think I’m completely off topic (as the topic has developed a bit)
Couldnt you bid for a Restricted Russia and then no longer need an axis bid? How would that effect game play?
Agree with Nix.
Germany keeps WR…. Very bad for allies. Very bad…
Squirecam
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Jennifer, please hold that thought for a second, I was replying to squirecam.
What are you buying???
To review, the basis for the thread was G1 1AC 12inf. Â G2 I had only 38 IPCs due to sbr by UK, so I bought 8inf 1art 2arm. Â G3 I bought 12inf 1arm, and I’ve only just finished UK3, so those 12inf are in Germany. Â Due to attrition (e.g. taking back Ukraine G2 with 2inf 1ftr, taking Karel 2inf 1ftr, then losing those infantry to counter-attacks), I have only 10inf in E.Eur, 1inf in Balkans, Russia holds WRus, Ukr, Belo, Karel, UK holds Norway. Â Believe me, I’ve tried, but I couldn’t do better than one big stack in EEur with 10inf 1art 5arm. Â I’ve basically followed the moves ad described by experienced members of the forum who have played G1 1AC 12inf. Â My goal is to see how that initial buy plays out, and not surprisingly it has led to an early Russian lead. :-) Â But I am far from giving up hope!
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Couldnt you bid for a Restricted Russia and then no longer need an axis bid? How would that effect game play?
In the original A&A, restricted Russia was one way to make it a bit tougher on the Allies. In Revised, I’m not sure I would want to play a Restricted Russia! I agree with Nix. WRus is too critical.
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Jennifer, please hold that thought for a second, I was replying to squirecam.
What are you buying???
To review, the basis for the thread was G1 1AC 12inf. Â G2 I had only 38 IPCs due to sbr by UK, so I bought 8inf 1art 2arm. Â
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I presume you have 5 fighters still. You do NOT need armor or artillery. You are trading Belo/Karelia/Ukr. This requires sacrificing INFANTRY, not armor. G2 buy should be as much INF as possible, with art/tank left over. In this case, 11 Inf, 1 armor.
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A sea purchase usually causes UK to fear 2 things, invasion and merger. I dont think you tried to merge. So the AC by itself wont stop the UK/USA from gathering to destroy you (as you are finding out). If you build an AC you must threaten to do something substantial with it.
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see post above. USSR cant have the O power to defeat your D strength… (or wouldn’t with all INF buys)
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Trying to follow a “script”, even a “master’s” usually results in trouble. The best thing you can do is learn to think “outside the box”, experiment, and try to determine overall strategies and counters. Dont be tied down to one “set” way of doing things.
Squirecam
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@Nix:
that would kill the Allies.
But on the topic of being outnumbered by Russia, NO BIG DEAL, why? becuse you defend better then Russia can attack, he will most likley lack offensive punch.
Likewise, if Germany buys ships and Russia moves in to hold Ukr early it becomes very hard or costly (or both) to push them out.
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- A sea purchase usually causes UK to fear 2 things, invasion and merger. I dont think you tried to merge. So the AC by itself wont stop the UK/USA from gathering to destroy you (as you are finding out). If you build an AC you must threaten to do something substantial with it.
I bolded the important part.
Edit: Just to clarify.
I don’t think a sole AC purchase threatens much of anything.
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- A sea purchase usually causes UK to fear 2 things, invasion and merger. I dont think you tried to merge. So the AC by itself wont stop the UK/USA from gathering to destroy you (as you are finding out). If you build an AC you must threaten to do something substantial with it.
I bolded the important part.
Buying an AC alone won’t do that. At least not IMO.
Depends. Sometimes it will sometimes not.
Squirecam
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@Nix:
that would kill the Allies.
But on the topic of being outnumbered by Russia, NO BIG DEAL, why? Â becuse you defend better then Russia can attack, he will most likley lack offensive punch.
Likewise, if Germany buys ships and Russia moves in to hold Ukr early it becomes very hard or costly (or both) to push them out.
Right, that’s what is about to happen to me if I don’t do something quick! :-o
Jennifer, please hold that thought for a second, I was replying to squirecam.
What are you buying???
To review, the basis for the thread was G1 1AC 12inf. Â G2 I had only 38 IPCs due to sbr by UK, so I bought 8inf 1art 2arm. Â
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I presume you have 5 fighters still. You do NOT need armor or artillery. You are trading Belo/Karelia/Ukr. This requires sacrificing INFANTRY, not armor. G2 buy should be as much INF as possible, with art/tank left over. In this case, 11 Inf, 1 armor.
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A sea purchase usually causes UK to fear 2 things, invasion and merger. I dont think you tried to merge. So the AC by itself wont stop the UK/USA from gathering to destroy you (as you are finding out). If you build an AC you must threaten to do something substantial with it.
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see post above. USSR cant have the O power to defeat your D strength… (or wouldn’t with all INF buys)
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Trying to follow a “script”, even a “master’s” usually results in trouble. The best thing you can do is learn to think “outside the box”, experiment, and try to determine overall strategies and counters. Dont be tied down to one “set” way of doing things.
Squirecam
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Yes, I have 3ftr WEur 2ftr on AC, 1ftr EEur. Â I bot just 1art, with an extra IPC; that doesn’t hurt, it will help later when I attack.
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Yes, on G2 and G3 I moved my naval units to attempt merge, but due to a block it cannot happen until G4 at earliest, if US navy doesn’t sink most of my fleet. :wink:
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Russia has 4art 4arm 2ftr at the front lines, along with 20inf. Â They don’t lack offensive punch.
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Agreed. Â This is only my third game of Revised, so this whole German AC approach is new and outside the box for me. Â You’re basically reading my thoughts expressed as AAR (after action reports) turn by turn as I discover how this works. :-)
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