Sir, in order to proceed I decided to put 1 inf from Jehol to Chahar via edit mode. I think it would be ridiculous to have 12% chance to lost both and 30-40% chance to lose 1 bomber to that misconception of the partisan rule.
In Ahnwe I let it happen and will give the chinese the 1/6 chance to kill an air, I do not want to move more of your ground so I consider this the price of the new rules we need to learn. I guess its ok, I do not think it will be decisive.
Hope you agree with my assessment of that situation.
Cheers,
Tobias
Just making sure this doesnt get lost on the previous page.
TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.9
Game History
Round: 3
Purchase Units - Italians
Italians buy 2 armour and 3 mech_infantrys; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;
Politics - Italians
Italians takes Political Action: Political Action Axis To War With Russians
Italians succeeds on action: Political Action Axis To War With Russians: Changing Relationship for Italians and Russians from Neutrality to War
Italians succeeds on action: Political Action Axis To War With Russians: Changing Relationship for Russians and British from Neutrality to Allied
Italians succeeds on action: Political Action Axis To War With Russians: Changing Relationship for Russians and French from Neutrality to Allied
Italians succeeds on action: Political Action Axis To War With Russians: Changing Relationship for Russians and Neutral_Allies from Neutrality to Friendly_Neutral
Italians succeeds on action: Political Action Axis To War With Russians: Changing Relationship for Russians and Neutral_Axis from Neutrality to Unfriendly_Neutral
Italians takes Political Action: Political Action Italians To War With Chinese
Italians succeeds on action: Political Action Italians To War With Chinese: Changing Relationship for Italians and Chinese from Neutrality to War
Combat Move - Italians
1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Romania to Eastern Poland
Italians take Eastern Poland from Russians
1 infantry moved from Romania to Bessarabia
Italians take Bessarabia from Russians
1 infantry moved from Tunisia to Algeria
Italians take Algeria from French
1 infantry moved from Tunisia to Algeria
1 armour and 1 infantry moved from Syria to Iraq
2 fighters moved from Southern Italy to Iraq
2 fighters moved from Southern Italy to Trans-Jordan
1 bomber moved from Southern Italy to Iraq
1 armour, 3 artilleries, 2 infantry and 1 mech_infantry moved from Alexandria to Egypt
Italians take Egypt from British
2 infantry moved from Alexandria to 98 Sea Zone
1 transport moved from 98 Sea Zone to 97 Sea Zone
2 infantry moved from 98 Sea Zone to Trans-Jordan
1 infantry moved from Syria to Iraq
Combat - Italians
Battle in Iraq
Italians attack with 1 armour, 1 bomber, 2 fighters and 2 infantry
British defend with 1 armour and 1 mech_infantry
Italians win, taking Iraq from British with 1 armour, 1 bomber, 2 fighters and 2 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 10
Casualties for British: 1 armour and 1 mech_infantry
Battle in Trans-Jordan
Italians attack with 2 fighters and 2 infantry
ANZAC defend with 2 infantry
Italians win, taking Trans-Jordan from British with 2 fighters and 2 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 6
Casualties for ANZAC: 2 infantry
Non Combat Move - Italians
2 fighters moved from Trans-Jordan to Syria
1 bomber and 2 fighters moved from Iraq to Syria
2 infantry moved from Bulgaria to Romania
2 aaGuns moved from Romania to Eastern Poland
2 aaGuns moved from Northern Italy to Western Germany
Place Units - Italians
2 armour and 3 mech_infantrys placed in Northern Italy
Turn Complete - Italians
Italians collect 23 PUs; end with 23 PUs total
Objective Italians 2 Roman Empire: Italians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 28 PUs
Objective Italians 1 Control The Mediterranean: Italians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 33 PUs
Objective Italians 4 Control Iraq Or Persia Or Northwest Persia: Italians met a national objective for an additional 2 PUs; end with 35 PUs
TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.9
Game History
Round: 3
Purchase Units - Italians
Italians buy 2 armour and 3 mech_infantrys; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;
Politics - Italians
Italians takes Political Action: Political Action Axis To War With Russians
Italians succeeds on action: Political Action Axis To War With Russians: Changing Relationship for Italians and Russians from Neutrality to War
Italians succeeds on action: Political Action Axis To War With Russians: Changing Relationship for Russians and British from Neutrality to Allied
Italians succeeds on action: Political Action Axis To War With Russians: Changing Relationship for Russians and French from Neutrality to Allied
Italians succeeds on action: Political Action Axis To War With Russians: Changing Relationship for Russians and Neutral_Allies from Neutrality to Friendly_Neutral
Italians succeeds on action: Political Action Axis To War With Russians: Changing Relationship for Russians and Neutral_Axis from Neutrality to Unfriendly_Neutral
Italians takes Political Action: Political Action Italians To War With Chinese
Italians succeeds on action: Political Action Italians To War With Chinese: Changing Relationship for Italians and Chinese from Neutrality to War
Combat Move - Italians
1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Romania to Eastern Poland
Italians take Eastern Poland from Russians
1 infantry moved from Romania to Bessarabia
Italians take Bessarabia from Russians
1 infantry moved from Tunisia to Algeria
Italians take Algeria from French
1 infantry moved from Tunisia to Algeria
1 armour and 1 infantry moved from Syria to Iraq
2 fighters moved from Southern Italy to Iraq
2 fighters moved from Southern Italy to Trans-Jordan
1 bomber moved from Southern Italy to Iraq
1 armour, 3 artilleries, 2 infantry and 1 mech_infantry moved from Alexandria to Egypt
Italians take Egypt from British
2 infantry moved from Alexandria to 98 Sea Zone
1 transport moved from 98 Sea Zone to 97 Sea Zone
2 infantry moved from 98 Sea Zone to Trans-Jordan
1 infantry moved from Syria to Iraq
Combat - Italians
Battle in Iraq
Italians attack with 1 armour, 1 bomber, 2 fighters and 2 infantry
British defend with 1 armour and 1 mech_infantry
Italians win, taking Iraq from British with 1 armour, 1 bomber, 2 fighters and 2 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 10
Casualties for British: 1 armour and 1 mech_infantry
Battle in Trans-Jordan
Italians attack with 2 fighters and 2 infantry
ANZAC defend with 2 infantry
Italians win, taking Trans-Jordan from British with 2 fighters and 2 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 6
Casualties for ANZAC: 2 infantry
Non Combat Move - Italians
2 fighters moved from Trans-Jordan to Syria
1 bomber and 2 fighters moved from Iraq to Syria
2 infantry moved from Bulgaria to Romania
2 aaGuns moved from Romania to Eastern Poland
2 aaGuns moved from Northern Italy to Western Germany
Place Units - Italians
2 armour and 3 mech_infantrys placed in Northern Italy
Turn Complete - Italians
Italians collect 23 PUs; end with 23 PUs total
Objective Italians 2 Roman Empire: Italians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 28 PUs
Objective Italians 1 Control The Mediterranean: Italians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 33 PUs
Objective Italians 4 Control Iraq Or Persia Or Northwest Persia: Italians met a national objective for an additional 2 PUs; end with 35 PUs
Turning on Edit Mode
EDIT: Removing units owned by Germans from 97 Sea Zone: 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry
EDIT: Removing units owned by Italians from 97 Sea Zone: 1 transport
EDIT: Adding units owned by Italians to 98 Sea Zone: 1 transport
EDIT: Adding units owned by Germans to 98 Sea Zone: 1 marine and 1 mech_infantry
EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
oh boy, Chinese disaster followed by 4 units missing. Allies are in trouble :(
You btw accidently added a marine on the TT in 98 instead of Inf.
TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.9
Game History
Round: 3
Purchase Units - ANZAC
ANZAC buy 1 infantry and 2 submarines; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;
Combat Move - ANZAC
1 infantry moved from Java to 42 Sea Zone
1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 42 Sea Zone to 37 Sea Zone
1 infantry moved from 37 Sea Zone to Siam
1 fighter moved from Java to Siam
Combat - ANZAC
Battle in Siam
ANZAC attack with 1 fighter and 1 infantry
Japanese defend with 1 infantry
ANZAC win with 1 fighter remaining. Battle score for attacker is 0
Casualties for ANZAC: 1 infantry
Casualties for Japanese: 1 infantry
Non Combat Move - ANZAC
1 fighter moved from Siam to Shan State
2 infantry moved from Burma to India
1 fighter moved from Burma to India
1 transport moved from 38 Sea Zone to 39 Sea Zone
1 fighter moved from Burma to India
1 submarine moved from 62 Sea Zone to 57 Sea Zone
1 destroyer moved from 43 Sea Zone to 37 Sea Zone
1 transport moved from 62 Sea Zone to 54 Sea Zone
1 infantry moved from Queensland to 54 Sea Zone
1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 54 Sea Zone to 45 Sea Zone
1 infantry moved from 45 Sea Zone to Dutch New Guinea
ANZAC take Dutch New Guinea from Dutch
1 artillery moved from Queensland to South Australia
Place Units - ANZAC
1 infantry placed in New South Wales
2 submarines placed in 62 Sea Zone
Turn Complete - ANZAC
ANZAC collect 14 PUs; end with 14 PUs total
Trigger ANZAC 1 Control Original And Malaya: ANZAC met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 19 PUs
Objective ANZAC 2 Control Strategic Islands: ANZAC met a national objective for an additional 3 PUs; end with 22 PUs
Objective ANZAC 3 Pacific Supply Lines: ANZAC met a national objective for an additional 3 PUs; end with 25 PUs
TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.9
Game History
Round: 3
Combat Move - French
Non Combat Move - French
1 fighter moved from United Kingdom to Gibraltar
Turn Complete - French
TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.9
Game History
Round: 3
Combat Move - French
Non Combat Move - French
1 fighter moved from United Kingdom to Gibraltar
Turn Complete - French
Turning on Edit Mode
EDIT: Removing units owned by ANZAC from Shan State: 1 fighter
EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
Turning on Edit Mode
EDIT: Changing ownership of Siam from Japanese to ANZAC
EDIT: Adding units owned by ANZAC to Siam: 1 infantry
EDIT: Changing PUs for ANZAC from 25 to 26
EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.9
Game History
Round: 3
Combat Move - French
Non Combat Move - French
1 fighter moved from United Kingdom to Gibraltar
Turn Complete - French
Turning on Edit Mode
EDIT: Removing units owned by ANZAC from Shan State: 1 fighter
EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
Turning on Edit Mode
EDIT: Changing ownership of Siam from Japanese to ANZAC
EDIT: Adding units owned by ANZAC to Siam: 1 infantry
EDIT: Changing PUs for ANZAC from 25 to 26
EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
Turning on Edit Mode
EDIT: Removing units owned by French from 110 Sea Zone: 1 cruiser
EDIT: Adding units owned by French to 91 Sea Zone: 1 cruiser
EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
Sorry for the edits. Not sure if the download was yours, there was one when I made this edit.
TripleA Manual Gamesave Post for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.9
Game History
Round: 4
Research Technology - Germans
Purchase Units - Germans
Germans buy 1 destroyer, 1 infantry and 9 mech_infantrys; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;
Politics - Germans
Germans takes Political Action: Political Action Germans To War With Chinese
Germans succeeds on action: Political Action Germans To War With Chinese: Changing Relationship for Germans and Chinese from Neutrality to War
Germans takes Political Action: Political Action Axis To War With Russians
Germans succeeds on action: Political Action Axis To War With Russians: Changing Relationship for Germans and Russians from Neutrality to War
Combat Move - Germans
1 infantry moved from Finland to Karelia
Germans take Karelia from Russians
1 infantry moved from Finland to Vyborg
Germans take Vyborg from Russians
1 armour moved from Romania to Baltic States
3 infantry moved from France to Normandy Bordeaux
2 bombers moved from Western Germany to 115 Sea Zone
1 cruiser moved from 115 Sea Zone to 113 Sea Zone
1 submarine moved from 113 Sea Zone to 115 Sea Zone
1 transport moved from 115 Sea Zone to 113 Sea Zone
2 bombers moved from Syria to Baltic States
2 infantry and 8 mech_infantrys moved from Western Germany to Holland Belgium
4 bombers moved from Western Germany to Normandy Bordeaux
2 bombers moved from Syria to Normandy Bordeaux
Combat - Germans
Battle in Normandy Bordeaux
Germans attack with 6 bombers and 3 infantry
British defend with 1 aaGun, 1 factory_minor, 1 harbour and 3 infantry
Germans win, taking Normandy Bordeaux from British with 6 bombers and 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 8
Casualties for Germans: 2 infantry
Casualties for British: 1 aaGun and 3 infantry
Battle in Holland Belgium
Germans attack with 2 infantry and 8 mech_infantrys
British defend with 1 aaGun and 2 infantry
Germans win, taking Holland Belgium from British with 1 infantry and 8 mech_infantrys remaining. Battle score for attacker is 8
Casualties for Germans: 1 infantry
Casualties for British: 1 aaGun and 2 infantry
Battle in Baltic States
Germans attack with 1 armour and 2 bombers
Russians defend with 1 infantry
Germans win with 2 bombers remaining. Battle score for attacker is -3
Casualties for Germans: 1 armour
Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
Battle in 115 Sea Zone
Germans attack with 2 bombers and 1 submarine
Russians defend with 1 cruiser and 1 submarine
TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.9
Game History
Round: 4
Research Technology - Germans
Purchase Units - Germans
Germans buy 1 destroyer, 1 infantry and 9 mech_infantrys; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;
Politics - Germans
Germans takes Political Action: Political Action Germans To War With Chinese
Germans succeeds on action: Political Action Germans To War With Chinese: Changing Relationship for Germans and Chinese from Neutrality to War
Germans takes Political Action: Political Action Axis To War With Russians
Germans succeeds on action: Political Action Axis To War With Russians: Changing Relationship for Germans and Russians from Neutrality to War
Combat Move - Germans
1 infantry moved from Finland to Karelia
Germans take Karelia from Russians
1 infantry moved from Finland to Vyborg
Germans take Vyborg from Russians
1 armour moved from Romania to Baltic States
3 infantry moved from France to Normandy Bordeaux
2 bombers moved from Western Germany to 115 Sea Zone
1 cruiser moved from 115 Sea Zone to 113 Sea Zone
1 submarine moved from 113 Sea Zone to 115 Sea Zone
1 transport moved from 115 Sea Zone to 113 Sea Zone
2 bombers moved from Syria to Baltic States
2 infantry and 8 mech_infantrys moved from Western Germany to Holland Belgium
4 bombers moved from Western Germany to Normandy Bordeaux
2 bombers moved from Syria to Normandy Bordeaux
Combat - Germans
Battle in Normandy Bordeaux
Germans attack with 6 bombers and 3 infantry
British defend with 1 aaGun, 1 factory_minor, 1 harbour and 3 infantry
Germans win, taking Normandy Bordeaux from British with 6 bombers and 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 8
Casualties for Germans: 2 infantry
Casualties for British: 1 aaGun and 3 infantry
Battle in Holland Belgium
Germans attack with 2 infantry and 8 mech_infantrys
British defend with 1 aaGun and 2 infantry
Germans win, taking Holland Belgium from British with 1 infantry and 8 mech_infantrys remaining. Battle score for attacker is 8
Casualties for Germans: 1 infantry
Casualties for British: 1 aaGun and 2 infantry
Battle in Baltic States
Germans attack with 1 armour and 2 bombers
Russians defend with 1 infantry
Germans win with 2 bombers remaining. Battle score for attacker is -3
Casualties for Germans: 1 armour
Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
Battle in 115 Sea Zone
Germans attack with 2 bombers and 1 submarine
Russians defend with 1 cruiser and 1 submarine
1 submarine owned by the Russians Submerged
Germans win with 2 bombers and 1 submarine remaining. Battle score for attacker is 12
Casualties for Russians: 1 cruiser
Non Combat Move - Germans
2 bombers moved from 115 Sea Zone to Western Germany
2 infantry moved from Norway to Finland
2 bombers moved from Baltic States to Eastern Poland
3 aaGuns, 7 armour, 5 artilleries and 24 infantry moved from Romania to Eastern Poland
1 armour moved from Romania to Eastern Poland
1 aaGun moved from Western Germany to Holland Belgium
1 aaGun moved from Western Germany to France
4 bombers moved from Normandy Bordeaux to Western Germany
2 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Syria to Western Germany
1 tactical_bomber moved from Syria to Egypt
3 fighters and 3 tactical_bombers moved from Alexandria to Iraq
1 marine and 1 mech_infantry moved from 98 Sea Zone to Egypt
1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry moved from Yugoslavia to 97 Sea Zone
2 bombers moved from Normandy Bordeaux to France
Place Units - Germans
1 destroyer placed in 113 Sea Zone
9 mech_infantrys placed in Western Germany
1 infantry placed in France
Germans undo move 2.
2 mech_infantrys placed in France
7 mech_infantrys placed in Western Germany
Turn Complete - Germans
Total Cost from Convoy Blockades: 3
Rolling for Convoy Blockade Damage in 125 Sea Zone. Rolls: 3,2
Germans collect 37 PUs (3 lost to blockades); end with 37 PUs total
Trigger Germans 4 Presence In Egypt: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 42 PUs
Trigger Germans 5 Swedish Iron Ore: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 47 PUs
Hey Sir,
I am not getting any feedback or acknowledgment to my in between messages.
Have you realized the edit I made in China in order to not let your naked bombers fight partisan Infs?
In addition you accidently edited a German Marine on the Italian transport. I will edit that back.
Btw: I checked in the meantime. Did you realize that Axis can NCM into SF after Vichy takes place? I guess the SF units and the 93 fleet explodes in that case.
TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.9
Game History
Round: 4
Purchase Units - Russians
Russians buy 2 artilleries, 1 bomber, 5 infantry and 1 mech_infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;
Combat Move - Russians
4 infantry moved from Amur to Manchuria
4 infantry moved from Amur to Korea
1 submarine moved from 115 Sea Zone to 113 Sea Zone
1 infantry moved from Ukraine to Bessarabia
1 fighter moved from Ukraine to Bessarabia
1 fighter moved from Belarus to Bessarabia
1 tactical_bomber moved from Belarus to Bessarabia
Combat - Russians
Germans scrambles 3 units out of Western Germany to defend against the attack in 113 Sea Zone
Battle in Manchuria
Russians attack with 4 infantry
Japanese defend with 2 infantry
Japanese win with 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is -9
Casualties for Russians: 4 infantry
Casualties for Japanese: 1 infantry
Battle in Korea
Russians attack with 4 infantry
Japanese defend with 2 infantry
Russians win, taking Korea from Japanese with 2 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 0
Casualties for Russians: 2 infantry
Casualties for Japanese: 2 infantry
Battle in Bessarabia
Russians attack with 2 fighters, 1 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber
Italians defend with 1 infantry
Russians win with 2 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 0
Casualties for Italians: 1 infantry
Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
Battle in 113 Sea Zone
Russians attack with 1 submarine
Germans defend with 1 cruiser, 1 destroyer, 2 fighters, 1 tactical_bomber and 1 transport
Germans win with 1 cruiser, 2 fighters, 1 tactical_bomber and 1 transport remaining. Battle score for attacker is 2
Casualties for Germans: 1 destroyer
Casualties for Russians: 1 submarine
Moving scrambled unit from 113 Sea Zone back to originating territory: Western Germany
Moving scrambled unit from 113 Sea Zone back to originating territory: Western Germany
Moving scrambled unit from 113 Sea Zone back to originating territory: Western Germany
Non Combat Move - Russians
Turning on Edit Mode
EDIT: Removing units owned by Germans from Egypt: 1 marine
EDIT: Adding units owned by Germans to Egypt: 1 infantry
EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
1 submarine moved from 125 Sea Zone to 110 Sea Zone
2 aaGuns and 4 infantry moved from Amur to Buryatia
4 infantry moved from Timguska to Novosibirsk
1 aaGun, 9 artilleries, 24 infantry and 1 mech_infantry moved from Ukraine to Bryansk
1 aaGun moved from Belarus to Archangel
2 infantry moved from Novgorod to Archangel
2 armour, 1 artillery, 3 infantry and 4 mech_infantrys moved from Belarus to Bryansk
3 artilleries and 2 infantry moved from Russia to Bryansk
2 mech_infantrys moved from Bryansk to Russia
1 mech_infantry moved from Volgograd to Bryansk
1 fighter moved from Bessarabia to Russia
1 fighter moved from Bessarabia to Bryansk
1 tactical_bomber moved from Bessarabia to Bryansk
1 armour moved from Bryansk to Russia
1 mech_infantry moved from Bryansk to Russia
1 mech_infantry moved from Bryansk to Russia
Place Units - Russians
2 artilleries, 1 bomber, 5 infantry and 1 mech_infantry placed in Russia
Turn Complete - Russians
Total Cost from Convoy Blockades: 2
Rolling for Convoy Blockade Damage in 6 Sea Zone. Rolls: 6,2
Russians collect 36 PUs (2 lost to blockades); end with 36 PUs total
Trigger Russians 1 Lend Lease: Russians met a national objective for an additional 2 PUs; end with 38 PUs
Trigger Russians 7 Great Patriotic War: Russians met a national objective for an additional 3 PUs; end with 41 PUs
Trigger Russians 3 Siberia Lend Lease Lane: Russians met a national objective for an additional 2 PUs; end with 43 PUs
Trigger Russians 2 Persia Lend Lease Lane: Russians met a national objective for an additional 2 PUs; end with 45 PUs
I took down the DD in 113, feel free to edit the cruiser if u like.
btw: It would have been a valid option for me to let the sub fight in your attack at 115, especially as you would not have had 2 hits for granted in round 1.
Assuming your sub misses I would have had an extra shot with my sub. I still might have submerged as I would have known I even have the better shot next turn and I got lucky on this half of the map (while any ground attack on Chinese ground is kind of cursed^^)
I thought about asking you, but figured the most logical thing to do was submerging and wanted to speed up the game.
Hey Sir,
I am not getting any feedback or acknowledgment to my in between messages.
Have you realized the edit I made in China in order to not let your naked bombers fight partisan Infs?
In addition you accidently edited a German Marine on the Italian transport. I will edit that back.Btw: I checked in the meantime. Did you realize that Axis can NCM into SF after Vichy takes place? I guess the SF units and the 93 fleet explodes in that case.
Hey Sir,
I am not getting any feedback or acknowledgment to my in between messages.
Have you realized the edit I made in China in order to not let your naked bombers fight partisan Infs?
In addition you accidently edited a German Marine on the Italian transport. I will edit that back.Btw: I checked in the meantime. Did you realize that Axis can NCM into SF after Vichy takes place? I guess the SF units and the 93 fleet explodes in that case.
I didn’t notice that at all. I know about the partisan units, but shouldnt bombers prevent it or is it jus tland units?
just land units. if planes are left alone in territory, guerrillas will engage the planes in combat on china’s turn.
Ic, but doesn’t matter anyways. Asia looks hopeless. I concede
