@krieghund ok, I think I got it. Thanks a bunch! :+1:
Preview 2: The Russian Revolution
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In all probability, yes. But it means the players cannot just ignore Russia. They need to do just enough to ensure that their own friends there keep going long enough to stop Russia re-entering on the wrong side.
The Allies intervened in North Russia initially to forestall German advances, then to prop up the Whites when it became clear that Lenin did not want to fight the Germans.
The Germans themselves agreed to help the Reds drive out the Allies, and put down the various anti-Bolshevik factions. They were preparing to do this when the armistice was signed.
Having civil war also ensures that the CPs cannot just abandon their gains in the east, they have to keep forces there to hold down the tts annexed in the treaty. Therefore, in order to collect income from Russian tts there must be a CP unit as well as a control marker present in the tt concerned. I would make this a general rule for the game, even in Africa, for occupied tt.
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Lets see if I can draft some solid rules here.
For the time being, assume the conditions for Revolution remain the same. So, at the end of a Russian turn, if the Revolution occurs, take the following steps:
1. Remove all Russian control markers. Determine control of any tts affected according to units present. If the tt is empty, then nobody controls it and the first unit to enter takes control.
2. The tts of “Great Russia”, that is Moscow, Karelia and Tartarstan, become Red tts. Place a Communist control marker in each to indicate this (borrow some USSR markers from your WWII games). The presence of units from the other Allies does not prevent Red control at this stage. Replace every unit in these tts (including the new units just placed in the capital) with Russian Red units; any WWII Russian pieces of a suitably distinct colour will do. The CPs must relinquish control of these tts, the Reds effectively become a 4th Central Power.
3. Nominate a CP player to control Communist Russia, but keep income and units separate. The Reds collect income from Greater Russia for next turn. The Reds may enter CP controlled Russian tt, but may not take control of it. However if they liberate a Russian tt from the Allies and Whites when there are no other CP units present, they may keep it.
4. Any Russian units in other tts remain in place and are still controlled by the original Russian player. These become “White” units fighting to overthrow the Communists. They function as a separate power, but are limited in ability due to a lack of cohesion; some of them are nationalists, some royalists, some republicans, some separatists.
5. The new order of play has two Russian turns:
a) White Russians. If the Allies control any original Russian tts, these are considered to be controlled by the Whites, who collect income from them at the end of their turn. Use the original Russian “Imperialist” markers to indicate White control. White units continue to contest tt with the CPs, and may defend with Allied units.
However, until Moscow is recaptured by the Allies, the Whites are limited to buying infantry units (they can keep any other pieces they still have). These can be placed in any White controlled tt at the end of their turn, but no more than one unit in any tt.b) Reds. May place any units they buy in Moscow.
6. Although Russia is considered to be in a state of civil war, the rival Russian factions can interact with the other powers, Whites allied to the Allies, Reds to the CPs, with the following restrictions:
Red units may never move outside original Russian tt in any circumstances, even to attack Whites there.
White units may exist and fight outside Russia, but may not gain control of non-Russian tt. If a White attack gains such a tt, control must be handed to a full Ally.
7. If the Whites gain control of Moscow, they obtain the right to build any unit there, while the Reds are now restricted to infantry only placements.
8. The Civil War will probably not end before the game, and as long as it continues then the CPs are considered to have fulfilled one part of their victory conditions, even if the Whites have regained Moscow.
9. If the Whites (and the Allies) completely eliminate all Red units, then the Civil War is a White victory. Russia is fully restored as an Allied power, and the CP lose their victory objective in Russia.
10. If at any time the Reds and CPs control all original Russian tt, the Civil War is a Red victory. The Whites cease to be a faction, and neither they nor the Allies may enter Greater Russia, though they may still fight the CPs in tt annexed from Russia. White units remain on the board and can be used by the Allies to fight, but the Whites can no longer control tts or collect income. Since Reds cannot move outside Russia, there is no need for further Red turns.
Issues:
Petrograd was the centre of the Revolution, as well as the Russian fleet. Since on this board not only is it not the capital, but it seems to have been placed in “Livonia”, therefore outside Greater Russia. On a more accurate map it would be inside Red tt, even if the capital were moved to Moscow. If using the official board, then, we simply have to pretend that the city never existed.
The Russian Fleet.
Ideally the Baltic fleet would become Red, being assigned to the Petrograd/Kronstadt Naval Base. However since on the official board this base is in CP annexed Livonia, this presents a difficulty. Probably it depends on CP control of Livonia.
The Black Sea fleet, being assigned to Sevastopol, would depend on who controls that NB. However the Allied players may decide to move such ships out of the Black Sea in anticipation of this, dependent of course on being able to sail it through the Turksih straits.
In fact, the CPs should be able to keep all Russian naval units bottled up in their home SZs to become Red ships, however the same restrictions apply to the Red navy as the Red army: they may not sail outside “Home” waters, i.e SZs with a Russian NB.
Russian ships anywhere other than in Red or CP controlled NB SZs become White.
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I’m liking the rules Flashman. Perhaps, since Petrograd isn’t its own territory, make Livonia disputed, rolling to see which units become Reds or Whites (provided Russian units are still in Livonia at the time)?
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Mmm, Livonia really has to be part of the annexed CP tts. I’m reviewing this at the moment, as I’m not at all sure I’ve got this area of the map correct. It’s possible that “Karelia” has two naval bases, one of which is in effect Petrograd.
But my instinct is that this is not so.
So the effect of Revolution on Livonia would be:
1. CP controlled: no change. Any Russian fleet in SZ 12 becomes Red.
2. Allied (Russian) controlled: remains White tt (place white marker); fleet remains White. Units of all Allies may remain.
3. Contested: no change, remains contested between CPs and White Russians and/or Allies.
For neighbouring Karelia (which is in the “Great Russia” area) the effects would be:
1. CP controlled: replace CP marker with Red Russian version, adjust incomes.
2. Russian controlled: replace all White Russian units with equivalent Reds.
Replace White Russian marker with Red version. Adjust incomes.
Unless there are units of other Allies present, in which case the tt becomes contested between them and the Reds.Note that CP units are free to enter Red tt and attack Allies and Whites there, but they cannot take control.
3. Contested: Russians all become Reds. If there are no remaining Allied units, place a Red control marker and adjust incomes. CP units remain, but do not contest the tt.
If there are Western Allies present, they now contest the tt with the CPs and Reds, who may defend together if attacked.Note that the Western Allies will be keen to keep some presence of their own units in Russia to prevent a Red victory (there may be few or no White units, and what there are may quickly disappear without Allied support).
The most obvious (but not only) route is the Arctic sea from UK SZ 9. -
My latest customized map has a red border delineating Great Russia and the outer tts.
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I like it. I think it’s a good idea to make Livonia (or wherever Petrograd is) a roll to see who it belongs to, and there’s historical basis for it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junker_mutiny)
My only suggestion is to maybe add something to represent the arrival of White troops from Siberia in the east, maybe add a few White troops into Greater Russia every couple of turns or something like that.
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Two issues here,
First of all it looks like Petrograd may be in Karelia after all (according to DJensen) so this is no longer a problem: Karelia is in Red tt.
Secondly, the timing of revolution. Inevitably, as long as the revolution can only occur at the end of the Russian turn, the Allies will gerrymander it to their own advantage. This seem wrong, as it should always be a defeat for the Allies.
For example under my rules they would simply move all Russian units out of Great Russia, having previously moved other Allied units in to keep control of those tts. Effectively the Red revolution would be stangled at birth.
So
Revolution can take place at the end of ANY player turn. Furthermore, there are two kinds of revolution.
If one takes place at the end of an Allied turn (including Russias) then it is a Republican revolution establishing a pro-Allied Provisional government. I’ll have to think about the effects of this, but one might be to bring America closer to war, as Wilson was reluctant to ally himself with the autocratic Tzarist regime.
If Revolution takes place at the end of a CP turn, it is a Red Revolution and is enacted as I’ve described above.
A republican takeover does not prevent a Red revolt on a later turn, but a Communist government does preclude any further revolutions; thereafter control of Russia is determined by civil war.
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Eh, usually I’m all for complexity when it makes sense, but maybe just make it so the allies must remove all units from Greater Russia. I have a feeling there will be a lot less movement of non-Russian units to the Eastern Front than you might think…the ‘contested tt’s’ rule means you have to keep a constant flow of troops to your border to keep from being overrun. But if for some reason the Western Allies do try to mount an amphibious expedition to Karelia, this caveat will handle it.
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Russia should just become a giant neutral. If you want to attack it you can, allies or CP can if they have a reason. Why are we making this so god damn hard?
You want whites and reds and rolls etc.
I just want the country to not become IMPASSABLE. -
You want all of Russia neutral? Why would the CPs bother going anywhere near it if they can’t conquer the majority of Russian tt?
The Revolution must be in essence a CP victory, counting towards their victory conditions AND giving them a big income boost. It is hardly likely that the Allies will just stand by and allow this to happen, especially since they can ship units to Karelia directly from the UK.
I expect a sizable number of western units to be shipped to Karelia most games. It is not good enough to just say “they have to leave Russia”. Why? Who is going to make them?
Reds and Whites is not hard. Follow the history and the process is quite logical. All you need is some WWII Soviet units and control markers.
Russia didn’t just disappear into a parallel universe. The war went on there in a different form, and both sides in the greater war were heavily involved in it.
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Another factor I forgot to throw in the mix: POWs. A large umber of prisoners were released by each side after the armistice between the Soviets and CPs.
So, a number of infantry units, perhaps calculated on the number of turns played, are placed in bordering tts by each side. Its simplest to divide up the CP units on a 1/1/1 basis, though in reality there were more Austrians than Turks. The number of Russians would be smaller than the PC total as the war is supposed to be over for Russia, but a number would be placed to bulk up the Red army.
This would party compensate the CPs for having a large number of units stranded in the east unable to be be moved to the western front in time because of the lack of damned trains.
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Well presently Russia turns into IMPASSABLE after the revolution so just making it neutral is a small step toward reality. The CP can keep going to Moscow if it wants, but that reactivaes Russia as an allied power, conversely, if Russia is almost empty the allies can invade to get to Moscow and turn back the revolution (by fighting their way to the Kremlin)
Otherwise, both van ignore Russia as it sorts out its own internal affairs.
I would go as far as having a die cart you roll each turn to see if/how the revolution ends. Some result rejoining the Allies, some remaining neutral, some trading with the CP, and an option to Join the CPs.Would probably be 2d6. 6,7, and 8 being “stays neutral roll again next turn”
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