Larry Harris: 2-Space-Movement & other ideas

  • '17 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    The interception by the British might have brought the US in a few months earlier than they would have come in with out it.

    Right it was the trigger for US entry in the war. The actual trigger. Since USW was also considered a second time and war did not occur, the Germans were hoping no war would be avoided a SECOND TIME.

    and V1914 do not reply.


  • @Imperious:

    The interception by the British might have brought the US in a few months earlier than they would have come in with out it.

    Right it was the trigger for US entry in the war. The actual trigger. Since USW was also considered a second time and war did not occur, the Germans were hoping no war would be avoided a SECOND TIME.

    Do we need to bring out the facts and historical sources again or should we just understand that the “source” of the above statement is what the author calls “common knowledge?”

  • '17 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Do we need to bring out the facts and historical sources again or should we just understand that the “source” of the above statement is what the author calls “common knowledge?”

    and V1914 do not reply.

    Another troll fail… :roll:


  • So because I did not follow your “order” I am a troll? You’re the one who clearly posted a baiting comment, while making a terrible historical argument that the evidence, as I showed you and everyone else months ago, does not support. But you can’t let it go because you MUST be right.  :roll:

    You can’t order me or anyone else around. If you wanted to do that, you shouldn’t have repeatedly abused your mod powers in the past. (Now you just settle for abusing members that stand up to your very poor arguments).

    If you think that you can get away with posting absurd statements and then simply tell the person who proved those statements to be absurd months ago that he can’t post on them, you really need a reality check.

    Just because people don’t always waste the time to argue with your exceptionally closed mind does not mean you are right.

  • '17 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    So because I did not follow your “order” I am a troll? You’re the one who clearly posted a baiting comment, while making a terrible historical argument that the evidence, as I showed you and everyone else months ago, does not support. But you can’t let it go because you MUST be right.  rolleyes

    You can’t order me or anyone else around. If you wanted to do that, you shouldn’t have repeatedly abused your mod powers in the past. (Now you just settle for abusing members that stand up to your very poor arguments).

    If you think that you can get away with posting absurd statements and then simply tell the person who proved those statements to be absurd months ago that he can’t post on them, you really need a reality check.

    Just because people don’t always waste the time to argue with your exceptionally closed mind does not mean you are right.

    Yet another Hijack and troll fail…LOL :roll:

    Never learn


  • @Imperious:

    Just because people don’t always waste the time to argue with your exceptionally closed mind does not mean you are right.

    Yet another Hijack and troll fail…LOL :roll:

    Never learn

    WOW LMFAO.

    You talk about the pot calling the kettle black!!

    If you’re going to create a list of ppl that you don’t want to respond to your posts because they think you’re an A$$ then your going to need to type a lot more. Maybe as a MOD you just reserve that spot for whomever is the victim of the month, like a special parking space for the employee of the month.


  • @Imperious:

    The interception by the British might have brought the US in a few months earlier than they would have come in with out it.

    Right it was the trigger for US entry in the war. The actual trigger. Since USW was also considered a second time and war did not occur, the Germans were hoping no war would be avoided a SECOND TIME.

    and V1914 do not reply.

    IL as you know, at this point (1917) the Germans were in a stalemate, and on a backward slide (allies were gaining strength in France). The Germans wanted to cut supply to England, and reinforcements coming into France. They were going to resume unrestricted sub warfare to do so. They tried to entice Mexico into the war (Zimm Tele) because they believed that resuming unrestricted sub warfare would bring the Americans into the war. They wanted the Mexicans to tie down a good size portion of the US forces, to delay Americans involvement in Europe (as they strangled the UK). Again they only sent the Zimmerman Tele because they knew that resuming the sea fight would bring the US in (as it did).

    The decision to declare war was already on the table when Wilson severed all relations to Germany on Feb 3rd 1917, in response to Germany resuming unrestricted sub warfare again resulting in more American lives lost. It is thought Wilson didn’t know about the Zim Tele at this time, as the Brits stalled in passing it on because they didn’t want the fact that they were reading US wire exposed (they used this time to set-up a cover story). It is thought that Wilson got word of the Zim Tele the end of Feb, but when released to the public many thought it a hoax (so public opinion was still mixed). Zimmerman himself set the record straight to the press twice, the later being Mar 29 1917. Congress DOW on April 6th. I agree that the timing of the Zim Tele might have been the straw that broke the camels back (added evidence), but by this point the writing was on the wall.

    It was more like 2 prize fighters standing off waiting for the bell to ring, and when they meet in the center to shake hands (before the bell), one of them slaps the other in the face. This starts the fight a few seconds early, but it was going to happen anyway.

    Sorry this is a bit lengthy and also off topic, but I guess I took the bait too LOL (I won’t continue this debate here, so I guess IL will probably get the last word so he will think he’s right)


  • Anyway for game play, and loosely based on history. Because there were multiple warnings from Wilson about unrestricted sub warfare throughout the years, and the Germans attacked all the waters around the United Kingdom I think that we should look at expanding the sz’s that can be attacked, and link the number of attacks to trigger early involvement of the US (but still have a fail safe for the US to come in on turn 4).

    Proposal:
    Have all the sz’s that surround the United Kingdom (plus sz2 off Canada) eligible for unrestricted sub warfare on the UKs collect income phase (these would be sz’s 2,3,4,7,8 & 9). Attacking these sz’s effects only the UK econ at this time until the US is at war (see later), at which time sz 2, 7 & 8 would also hit the US econ on their respective turn (sz’s 3,4 & 9 can only ever effect the UK econ)**Here’s the kicker, the Germans are allowed to successfully attack up to 3 UK sz’s before the US comes in. This could include 3 sz’s w/successful attacks on one turn by 4-5 subs, or subs attacking UK sz’s over multiple turns tallying up to 3 successful econ attacks, but no more then 3 successful attacks in total, or else you trigger the US. A successful attack is when the Germans attack a single sz (could be w/multiple subs), and it costs the UK IPC’s (at least one of their sub dice hit for that sz). A hit would be the same as the new rule, a roll of 3 or less (you tally all hits). If they attack a sz, and it doesn’t result in a loss of income, then that attack wouldn’t count towards the 3 that the Germans are allowed to perform (before they trigger the US). If at any time the Germans have performed more then 3 successful attacks on the UK econ it will allow the US to DOW on the very next US turn (if not already at war). In retrospect the Germans could attack more then 3 sz’s, and the US could still be left out (not enough successful strikes), but if the Germans screw up and attack 4-5 sz’s, and have more success then expected, it would draw the US into the war. As a fail safe (and just for sake of argument), the US receives a copy of the Zimmerman Telegraph at the beginning of their 4th turn and in light of the Germans attempt to bring the Mexicans into the war, and their intention to continue USW (which is in the letter) they can DOW at the beginning of turn 4.

    This will allow the Germans to make some early attacks on the UK econ, but the US only comes into the war early if they over do it (disregarding multiple US warnings).

    Something else just to make subs more enticing for USW, and cruisers more valuable:
    Only allow cruisers to attack subs. Because this game has no DD’s, allow cruisers to take on a larger role to fill that void. I wouldn’t go as far as saying a cruiser can stop a subs abilities (moving past enemy surface ships, or submerge), but if you attack a fleet containing enemy subs, only your cruisers can hit them (def still chooses casualties though). This would allow for more subs to survive after they submerge (a submerged sub can still be taken as a casualty in this game, but could face fewer shots). If a sub is in the attacking fleet, then all ships return fire, I wouldn’t want a lone BB not able to defend itself (but maybe you do?). Many have said that the allies forgo buying cruisers because BB’s are so cheap, and perform better (is true IMO), this could change things up a bit if the CP invest heavily in subs, and the allies start losing their starting cruisers.

    BTW on G4, if the Germans are able, it may behoove them to set up to make a 4th attack on the UK econ, and have that sz be one that can be double dipped (2, 7 or 8’) because the US will be coming in anyway. If you use the cruiser modification, the US might not be able to kill off your sub(s) because they only start w/1cruiser.

  • '17 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Just because people don’t always waste the time to argue with your exceptionally closed mind does not mean you are right.

    Yet another Hijack and troll fail…LOL rolleyes

    Never learn

    WOW LMFAO.

    You talk about the pot calling the kettle black!!

    If you’re going to create a list of ppl that you don’t want to respond to your posts because they think you’re an A$$ then your going to need to type a lot more. Maybe as a MOD you just reserve that spot for whomever is the victim of the month, like a special parking space for the employee of the month.

    I didn’t write the first line, so i assume you are talking about Vonmakefart1914. Why would you want to continue that discussion which is off topic?

    IL as you know, at this point (1917) the Germans were in a stalemate, and on a backward slide (allies were gaining strength in France). The Germans wanted to cut supply to England, and reinforcements coming into France. They were going to resume unrestricted sub warfare to do so. They tried to entice Mexico into the war (Zimm Tele) because they believed that resuming unrestricted sub warfare would bring the Americans into the war. They wanted the Mexicans to tie down a good size portion of the US forces, to delay Americans involvement in Europe (as they strangled the UK). Again they only sent the Zimmerman Tele because they knew that resuming the sea fight would bring the US in (as it did).

    The decision to declare war was already on the table when Wilson severed all relations to Germany on Feb 3rd 1917, in response to Germany resuming unrestricted sub warfare again resulting in more American lives lost. It is thought Wilson didn’t know about the Zim Tele at this time, as the Brits stalled in passing it on because they didn’t want the fact that they were reading US wire exposed (they used this time to set-up a cover story). It is thought that Wilson got word of the Zim Tele the end of Feb, but when released to the public many thought it a hoax (so public opinion was still mixed). Zimmerman himself set the record straight to the press twice, the later being Mar 29 1917. Congress DOW on April 6th. I agree that the timing of the Zim Tele might have been the straw that broke the camels back (added evidence), but by this point the writing was on the wall.

    It was more like 2 prize fighters standing off waiting for the bell to ring, and when they meet in the center to shake hands (before the bell), one of them slaps the other in the face. This starts the fight a few seconds early, but it was going to happen anyway.

    The note triggered the actual entry of the US into war. USW was a cause that might have led to war, but the Zimmerman note was the item that actually turned public opinion decidedly against Germany because it was a direct threat to our citizens in the border states. That data gave the full measure of the president to ask the congress for war. That is the actual fact. The Germans already sank Lusitania which had like 117 Americans who died and nothing was done about it ( that was in 1915) proving that killing Americans would not get us to war. The president needed the American public behind the war to get a good draw for recruits in the army. Zimmerman confirmed the nature of his note because many people in America thought it was a British prank to draw us into war. When Zimmerman confirmed it at the end of March, a week later we were at war. Within that week, sinkings of ships were not the cause of the DOW. The trigger was the note. Note: people with shallow reasoning skills will attempt to try to argue ( knowing fully well the trigger was the note) that USW was the cause of the DOW. The causes were many but i never entertain that argument because all along i was only dealing with the trigger, not the cause. And in this respect i am absolutely correct.

    Know you know the actual truth as opposed to just saying whatever that is opposite from what i said and pretending that is true.

    In the immortal words of Judge Judy:  “I win… you lose… you’re case is dismissed. Goodbye”


  • OK “Judy” forgive me if I don’t respect your verdict (because your not judge, jury and executioner even on this site) If you read my post I said that the Zim note was the straw that broke the camels back (a trigger if you want to use that term), but that alone wasn’t going to put the US into the war either (there needed to be an action). The note included info about resuming USW, as well as the attempt to bring Mexico into the war to keep the US in the Americas. It was the resurgence of the USW that caused Wilson to sever all relations to Germany, before he even knew the Zim note existed. The wheels were already in motion, and the Zim note was the icing on the cake that he needed to go to war (I’ll give you that). NO NOTE ALONE WAS GOING TO PUT THE US AT WAR W/GERMANY UNLESS IT WAS A DOW ON THE USA BY GERMANY. A US DOW would need more then conspiracy and collaboration, it would have needed some type of action like Mexico actually declaring war on the US, or the resurgence of the USW killing more Americans (the later is how it went down in history).

    This whole debate is kinda silly, because we are basically in agreement. You probably needed both of these things for the US to enter the war. The Zim note, and resuming USW (or possibly Mexico DOW on the US). Its the whole what came first, the chicken or the egg, doesn’t matter we have chickens now LOL, and at best I’ll call it a draw to be done with it (no win/loss).

  • '17 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    but that alone wasn’t going to put the US into the war either (there needed to be an action). The note included info about resuming USW, as well as the attempt to bring Mexico into the war to keep the US in the Americas. It was the resurgence of the USW that caused Wilson to sever all relations to Germany, before he even knew the Zim note existed. The wheels were already in motion, and the Zim note was the icing on the cake that he needed to go to war (I’ll give you that). NO NOTE ALONE WAS GOING TO PUT THE US AT WAR W/GERMANY UNLESS IT WAS A DOW ON THE USA BY GERMANY. A US DOW would need more then conspiracy and collaboration, it would have needed some type of action like Mexico actually declaring war on the US, or the resurgence of the USW killing more Americans (the later is how it went down in history).

    This whole debate is kinda silly, because we are basically in agreement. You probably needed both of these things for the US to enter the war. The Zim note, and resuming USW (or possibly Mexico DOW on the US). Its the whole what came first, the chicken or the egg, doesn’t matter we have chickens now LOL.

    well then you understand my only point, which has incessantly been debated by others who happen to be wrong.

    because we are basically in agreement…

    This unfortunately was never the case. They are not in agreement and prefer to wallow in ignorance. I can only do so much to educate them, but in the end they argue just to argue as it fills a need. That is why it goes on, but also at my pleasure because entertainment is provided where i get to shoot down people who come up with insane conclusions…like shooting fish in a barrel.

    So there you have it. Not twilight Zone, just my entertainment.


  • It goes on because you offer us all a source of entertainment.

    BTW, just wondering, do you ever even play the AA games that you make reference to, or do you just troll the boards to pick fights. Have you actually played AA1914 using the proposed 2 movement rule that this topic is about? I have just started a new game BTW to give it a whirl, along with the other things Larry has presented. I haven’t seen you post an actual game report, or even anything that resembles your experience in playing this game at all. I know you probably bought 6 copies (your standard purchase from what you say), but have you opened one of them yet LOL. Most ppl talk about what happened in their game, or a rule change they would like to see based on personal experience of playing one of Larry’s games. You just seem to toss out a bunch of BS, hypothetical theories, and site a bunch of historical nonsense about how something should be, like you are some game master, or historian. Do you have a group of ppl that you sit down with from time to time and play AA FTF ? or does your personality turn ppl away, and you have a hard time getting a group together?

  • '17 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    BTW, just wondering, do you ever even play the AA games that you make reference to, or do you just troll the boards to pick fights. Have you actually played AA1914 using the proposed 2 movement rule that this topic is about? I have just started a new game BTW to give it a whirl, along with the other things Larry has presented. I haven’t seen you post an actual game report, or even anything that resembles your experience in playing this game at all. I know you probably bought 6 copies (your standard purchase from what you say), but have you opened one of them yet LOL. Most ppl talk about what happened in their game, or a rule change they would like to see based on personal experience of playing one of Larry’s games. You just seem to toss out a bunch of BS, hypothetical theories, and site a bunch of historical nonsense about how something should be, like you are some game master, or historian. Do you have a group of ppl that you sit down with from time to time and play AA FTF ? or does your personality turn ppl away, and you have a hard time getting a group together?

    Typically i am not into posting about game sessions. The only thing you got right is i bought 6 copies. I don’t pick fights for starters. I make a post and the usual suspects take exception to it. Check any threads where that occurred and you will find common denominators. They are always the same people. People really hate other people with confidence and a keen knowledge of facts. They hate because they lack this in themselves. As you know this is entertainment of great measure for me because it is so easy to defeat false arguments if they are not based on truth. The accolades you mention ( game master, etc) are not references from me. All i do is present the truth and some people just don’t like it, which is very amusing to me. I have regular gaming sessions with about 4-6 people on a regular basis with the next session on Friday. I don’t typically post because often we play with house rules which i already posted in like every case for every game. Our group is never satisfied with OOB rules so to take our results wouldn’t help anyone, which is why i don’t post them.

    BTW i have some 63,000  unique downloads from my files. They don’t seem to be turned away from them. I am quite sure many thousands are very happy. Here is one such note the other day….

    Hi buddy,

    Just a quick note to say thank you very much for the work you did on that AA50 map.  I downloaded it and recently had it printed and laminated in its full size.

    It looks awesome

    Thanks

    here is another one 2 days ago.

    HI!
    Superb map for WWI!  Thanks for letting the community use it!  If your sure your done, I’m going to measure up a board and talk to our local printer about taking the file and prinitng it out!  The only thing we dont use/like from the main original is the IPC chart in the center, but its just because we dont use it. It would be neat to have the turn order there.  Otherwise I’m totally ready to use this!  Thanks a lot!!!

    I get these like 3-4 times a week, so turning people away is just you and perhaps 4 more. But i like my odds.

    Now let’s not hijack this thread anymore and continue any further posts in a PM. You should agree to that.

    Here is something more uplifting for the moment:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9jXlp8tY1c


  • Ok, so seriously back on topic- I want to play 1914 in a couple weeks with my brother, who has not played it yet.  Does this 2-space move rule really help that much?


  • @BJCard:

    Ok, so seriously back on topic- I want to play 1914 in a couple weeks with my brother, who has not played it yet.  Does this 2-space move rule really help that much?

    I think it is better for sure, but I think sticking closer to Larry’s original idea had a lot more potential.

  • Customizer

    Been thinking about tying together 2 space moves and victory cities.

    The latter is, I think, a potentially better way of determining a winner in games ending early or within an agreed limit; the “economic victory” idea is a pretty much guaranteed CP win in short games, encouraging them to adopt a grab and defend strategy.

    The number of VCs the Central Powers must hold at the end of each completed round is predetermined according to how well they should be doing at that point.

    I’ve used VCs as rail hubs; that is you can only make 2 space moves from one controlled VC to another through friendly tt. This makes some areas vital transport centres, while excluding unhistorical rail movement in Africa and across Persia.

    I’d also suggest allowing limited infantry placement in all original controlled VCs, maybe max 2 units, permitting some new units built in Africa.

    Other points on this map:

    Petrograd-Moscow and Vienna-Budapest are joint capitals.

    Constantinople controls movement between SZs 20 & 20b.

    Other unhistorical borders corrected (still working on Denmark).

    Austria navy more freedom of movement A1 - can invade Italian North Africa!

    Sz17b might be given Italian mines, with a NB at Taranto (Naples), but that would mean splitting the Italian fleet, tempting the Austrians into battle…

    HubbaP.PNG


  • We have played quite a few games now with the 2-move rules. These work great! Lots of action, very competitive, never a dull moment. Have also been playing Larry’s tournament rules too. Not ready to sign off on the victory conditions yet, but game play is really good and play is dynamic. You will have a lot more fun with these rules then OOB, and you will find the Central Powers will be much stronger now.

    There still is some fine tuning being done based on actual games played (as opposed to the theorists) but this is probably going to be the standard for the future of this game in my opinion. I know my group will stick with playing this system from now on.

    Might see some small changes in game set up in the future, but for now, you can’t go wrong with them.

    My personal recommendation is play the Tournament Rules for now, but play to the OOB victory conditions. Forget the Russian revolution rules OOB.

    You may seem some minor changes in the future, but for now, you will enjoy this a great deal more.

    Kim


  • Kim, you say tournament rules; I thought those were the economic win conditions?

    Doesn’t the OOB Russian Revolution rules (clarified by Kreig) help the CPs by making it easier to secure the East front?  Why would you make it harder for by forcing the CPs into taking Moscow?

    So you advocate the 2 land movement?  What about sea?


  • @BJCard:

    Kim, you say tournament rules; I thought those were the economic win conditions?

    Doesn’t the OOB Russian Revolution rules (clarified by Kreig) help the CPs by making it easier to secure the East front?  Why would you make it harder for by forcing the CPs into taking Moscow?

    So you advocate the 2 land movement?  What about sea?

    BJ,
    Larry’s tournament rules compiled the 2 move rule with some set up changes as well as the economic/political collapse rules. It also put forth “victory conditions” based upon playing to a time limit for tournaments. The VC conditions for taking capitals is same as OOB and that’s what we play to.

    The Rules Larry added for economic/political collapse now apply to Every Power (and no Russian Revolution), they actually work in a similar way to the Russian revolution and you can knock out the ability to buy units and collect income prior to capturing the capital.

    Once Russia collapses economically, she will be out of the game in a turn or two, and the Central Powers can march into the Capital to collect her IPCs and one of the Victory conditions. Works better and more clearly then the revolution.

    At sea, naval units now get +1 move bonus when starting a move from a naval base. These work great. The US can now get troops to France right away, then ship the transports right back the following turn.

    You will find there is a greater number of strategies now, and  tough decisions are going to have to be made. Don’t theorize who you think has an edge…play the game!

    Kim


  • sounds good, gonna have to try this out in two weeks.

    Thanks Kim.


  • Some would argue that the Central Powers not being able to take a lot of Russian income because of the Revolution hurts them.

    On a side note: the 2 movement rule seems to better the central powers on the Eastern front but might allow the allies to put pressure on the Germans right away


  • On a side note: the 2 movement rule seems to better the central powers on the Eastern front but might allow the allies to put pressure on the Germans right away

    It’s actually the other way around. Once you have played a few games you’ll see.

    Kim

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