German Blueprint: G1 Attack on Russia

[Young Grasshopper]

Look up the Japan Playbook thread in this forum.

[Zhukov44]

@Young:

Seems like all the opposition is centered around quesionable dice odds, I had a game where I (Germany) was on the side of great dice in the first round, and I sailed toward victory during the rest of the game… You don’t need 90%+ odds in every battle, as long as you want to apply some pressure. One sub against one destroyer in SZ#106 is a 50% battle, but most of us do it in order to apply pressure. Also, Axis powers are about aggression, and I truly believe that Larry made the setup to allow a move like this.

The reason to experiment with a more risky G1 than normal is that you would gain something from it–pressure would be applied.  The problem with the G1 outlined above is Germany doesn’t seem to gain any benefit compared to waiting till G3, and indeed there is a good chance of losing the game on G1.

This particular map and ruleset is notable for its strong attachment to historical realism.  Just as in real history, Germany does not possess the resources to take on both the Western Allies and the Soviet Union in 1940.

I’m glad you are experimenting with it though and I’ll keep my mind open about it.

[Young Grasshopper]

@Zhukov44:

@Young:

Seems like all the opposition is centered around quesionable dice odds, I had a game where I (Germany) was on the side of great dice in the first round, and I sailed toward victory during the rest of the game… You don’t need 90%+ odds in every battle, as long as you want to apply some pressure. One sub against one destroyer in SZ#106 is a 50% battle, but most of us do it in order to apply pressure. Also, Axis powers are about aggression, and I truly believe that Larry made the setup to allow a move like this.

The reason to experiment with a more risky G1 than normal is that you would gain something from it–pressure would be applied.� � The problem with the G1 outlined above is Germany doesn’t seem to gain any benefit compared to waiting till G3, and indeed there is a good chance of losing the game on G1.

This particular map and ruleset is notable for its strong attachment to historical realism.� � Just as in real history, Germany does not possess the resources to take on both the Western Allies and the Soviet Union in 1940.

I’m glad you are experimenting with it though and I’ll keep my mind open about it.

To be honest, I have found that my blueprint has given a different kind of advantage to the Germans. What has been happening in my games is an immediate war of attrition with the Russians on the front line closest to me. Yes, I could wait and stack while Russia turtles, in which case we have a huge battle for Moscow 12 hours after we started the game, and thats usually a battle that gives the Germans less than favorable odds.

I’m not saying that that’s what happens in most games (massive battle for Moscow), but I’m saying that that’s what happens in our games. The past couple of months since I started consistantly attacking Russia G1, Germany and Russia have been hammering each other in territories close to the German complexes. Also, without spreading to thin across Russia, and by preventing any kind of significant buildup by the Russians, Germany has the odds in all counter attacks.

It’s not fool proof by any means, but it’s definitly fun…. and I have yet to lose a game in which I did a G1 attack on Russia, due to the G1 attacks alone, in fact my opponents claim that my strategy is very anoying, and hard to handle for Russia. That said, I have yet to experience a disasterous first round with the dice… which could very well happen any time you make a risk like this. However, I remember getting below average dice rolls one game and I lost a lot of units. I remember saying to myself… with these rolls, I’m gonna find out fast if this stategy is dead, I won that game on the Europe board against a very competant player. Needless to say, every game I play where I’m all the Axis powers… I’m attacking Russia G1.

Thanks Z44 for participating in the conversation and keeping an open mind, I appreciate your sensibility about the idea. For those PMing, challenging me to prove my strategy in an online game with them… please stop. I don’t play online and I don’t wish too. I play 3 to 6 table top games per month, and I don’t need to be an online player to discuss my strategies here.

Cheers.

[knp7765]

Young Grasshopper,
We tried out a game just last week with a G1 attack on Russia. It turned out pretty good for Germany and I think worked out like you said. Lots of somewhat smaller battles all along the line from Baltic States to Bessarabia with the Germans gradually gaining ground. The battle for Moscow ended up much smaller than normal. Instead of a huge stack of German tanks, mech and air against 30+ Russian infantry, it ended up being something like this:
Germany: 4 infantry, 3 artillery, 2 mechs, 2 tanks, 4 fighter, 3 Stuka, and 2 bombers
Russia: 14 infantry, 1 artillery, 2 AA guns and 1 tac bomber
Germany won this battle in round 7.

Because of Germany’s relatively thin spots on the front line, Russia got bold and led several counter attacks, often successful, which led to them buying more offensive units (tanks, artillery) and not simply buying a ton of infantry and turtling on Moscow. Russia actually did well in wiping out some advancing German forces, but it cost them units and usually what was left over was easily wiped out by German reinforcements. Russia even managed to take Romania one round, but tanks and mechs from Berlin took care of that. I think the key was Germany keeping a relatively strong force in the center while letting the north and south get slightly weak. So while Russia was able to make some small gains north and south, they couldn’t link up to really exploit it because of the heavy German presence in the center splitting the Russians. Once Leningrad and Ukraine were captured and held, the last couple of rounds before Moscow Russia started buying all infantry, but by then it just wasn’t enough.

By the way, UK had it’s hands full with Italy and German U Boats, plus Germany got lucky on SBR and bombed the crap out of UKs IC (15 points of damage one turn). The US went on a KJF and was 100% committed in the Pacific. It took a few rounds but Japan lost almost everything outside of Japan itself, but still had a lot of men + a few fighters in Tokyo, so the US managed to neuter Japan but never actually captured it.

[Jercules]

The key to a G1 Barbarossa is to progressively strat. bomb Moscow into the stone age. Russia lacks the air force to defend it (and God help them if they even try). With the following, the goal is to move the Germany stack one space East every turn until it invades Moscow (on G5).

G1:
-Buy a minor complex and an airbase for Romania (works also for Hungary–their are plusses and minuses to either. If you put the base/IC in Romania it gives you the opportunity to build transports in the Black Sea. If you put it Hungary, the bombers can reach London and back as well as Moscow… options options options)
-Make sure both German bombers end up where this airbase has been built (along with other Luftwaffe units to serve as defense, since all ground units have obviously advanced into Russia
-stack should be in Poland

G2:
-strat bomb Moscow
-Buy at least 2 strat. bombers and upgrade the minor IC, and save the rest for a massive mech/tank buy on G3
-stack advances to Eastern Poland (where it defends returning strat. bombers)

G3:
-strat bomb Moscow
-buy as many tanks as possible, mechs with the rest of the money, and spawn them in Hungary/Romania
-advance stack to Belarus or Ukraine (again, plusses and minuses to either approach. If the Russian player is late in getting the Leningrad stack East, moving to Belarus gives you a chance to keep him divided. Otherwise, dominating the Ukraine presents financial advantages)

G4:
-buy air air air, specifically tac bombers to match up with your tanks
-move the stack to Bryansk/Smolensk; move your hoard of tanks to Belarus/Ukraine; defend with planes where necessary
-at this point, it’s unlikely that you’ll need to strat bomb again, but if Russia has been paying off the damage than why not

G5:
-with your Germany stack (primarily), the Luftwaffe, men, arties and tanks that remain from the beginning, your air buy in Romania/Hungary, and your mech unit hoard in position to blitz… get 'er done!

NOTE: This strat can be supplemented with an aggressive Japan that invades the Far East, sucking a couple ICs from any Soviet income. Also, keeping sz125 full with a sub should go without saying… but if the Allies devote efforts to keeping it clear, DO NOT waste money trying to retake it. You can keep the bonus from Russia in R1 and maybe R2 easily enough; that should suffice.

[Young Grasshopper]

Today, a player in our group playing Germany used my exact blueprint against me, and it worked out very well for him. This strategy has merit.

[DJJazzyJeff]

So I tired out your strategy and the only downside I really see to it is that you can lose a lot of your airforce if Britain decides to scramble against your attacks in sz 110 and 111. I do like the idea that Russia is compelled to do counterattacks against the German assault so they do not turtle the whole time. It makes the game more interesting and fun.

After trying you strategy I have come up with my own kind of hybrid of yours and a save Italy strategy. Seeing that you are a believer in supporting italy I think that you might appreciate it.

GERMANY
Build 1 Bomber and 1 Fighter placed in Western Germany, 1 Destroyer placed in sz 112

COMBAT MOVES
SZ 106
1 sub from 117
1 sub from 108

SZ 91
1 sub from 103

SZ 111
1 sub from 118
1 battleship from 113
1 fighter from Norway
1 fighter from Holland
2 tacs from Western Germany
1 bomber from Germany
(If you want to save the battleship you can just use the other sub from SZ 124 as well which should be enough fodder for your planes, I want to save it however to block the Russian NO)

SZ 93
2 fighters and 1 tac from Western Germany
1 bomber from Germany
(The French fleet will normally get one hit, kill off the bomber first and the tac second if you need to. This way you can land as many planes as possible to scramble in southern Italy.)

France
4 inf, 2 arty, 3 tanks from Holland
3 inf, 1 arty, 4 mech from Western Germany

Baltic states
3 inf, 1 tank from Poland
1 tank from Hungary
1 tac from Germany

Eastern Poland
2 inf from Hungary
3 tanks from Greater Southern Germany

Bessarabia
2 inf , 1 tank from Romania
1 fighter from Hungary
1 tac from Poland

NONCOMBAT MOVES
All planes from SZ 111 go to Western Germany
All planes from SZ 93 go to Southern Italy (except for bomber if it lived, in which case it will go to Western Germany)
Sub in SZ 124 goes to SZ 125
Cruiser and transport go to SZ 112
2 inf from Denmark go to Norway
3 inf in Norway go to Finland
6 inf, 2 arty in Greater Southern Germany go to Hungary
11 inf, 3 arty, 2 AA in Germany go to Poland
1 AA in Germany goes to Hungary
1 fighter from Bessarabia goes to Hungary
1 tac in Bessarabia goes to Poland
1 tac in Baltic states goes to Poland
(The three AA guns in Western Germany you can split how you like, depending on how the battle in France went. Italy will not be taking southern France, that will be left for Germany so it would be a good Idea to put at least one AA in France and one in Northern Italy to use as fodder in case France tries something crazy.)

Should leave you with 62 PUs for the next round.

Let me know what you guys think. I have not had the opportunity to test this out against a human opponent yet but I will let you know when I do and how it went.

[Young Grasshopper]

Very interesting, and not all that crazy. I will have to examine it closer when I look at my table tonight. I want to see how high the risk is for leaving #110, or if it is possible/better to put 2 subs in #91 instead of #106.

Also… if you check out this topic,

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=29580.0

you will see that UK scrambling planes is not such a bad thing.

[atease]

I really like G1 Barbarossa. Even with average to less than average rolls, the key is that you get the initiative from the Russians and you never lose it. You can get counter-attacked but it will always be costly to Russians in terms of strategy. Most counter attacks put high value pieces right in front of a German stack. Russia always has tough choices, for example combine two medium-sized stacks or stay and fight for that territory. Either way, Germany wins - it captures a vacant territory with a blitzing tank or it takes an extra turn to consolidate armies to crush the single territory like Novgorod.

I find that by turn 4-5 of a G1 Barbarossa, Germany ends up losing tanks to kill infantry but it’s all worth it given that it’s almost guaranteed that Moscow falls in 6 turns.

All in all on G1 Barb you can: take France (I don’t take Normandy) and kill most of the UK fleet. Even if you take airplane losses you still finish on top.

So consider this my full endorsement of Grasshopper’s strategy.

[Young Grasshopper]

@atease

That’s what I find most people who are opposed to this strategy have a problem with, losing up to 6 German tanks on the Russian counter attack. What they fail to realize is…. the idea of attacking those valuable tanks, is what forces Russia into making those counter attacks in the first place. Germany should want Russia to hit the abandoned tanks in order to take out even more valuable Russian Infantry during turn two, while keeping the battle of attrition close to the German factories. You are right that it translates into a very fun game… when I had my own strategy used against me… I can’t deny how much fun it was playing Russia, even if I was uncomfortable with the tough decisions I had to make.

[atease]

Bang on Grasshopper. Literally, as a Russian facing a G1 Barb, you are never sure of any of your choices, as they always translate into either a military victory on one battle or a better strategic move (such as consolidating territories or strategic retreat), but never both.

Couple that with SBing the closest russian factories and you’re guaranteed to be in Moscow at G6. In addition, you give free reins to Japan in Asia as the russian player will probably not be sending tanks-mechs there.

You force Russia to concentrate their ressource all on the germans (or face faster defeat), thus giving more leeway to the italians and Japan.

and as you say i really dont care to lose 4-5 tanks if that means that i kill 6-7 infantry plus a couple artillery. Chances are he has nothing to even threaten your forces that will kill his counter-attack. His reinforcements are more expensive to replace than yours.

[Warplayer12]

I´ve an new idea:

buy an x number of tt´s, place then in sz 112, (takes 2 turns, not adjacent ot any IC) load them with troops, and land not in britain, but at nenetsia, the territory just east of archangel. (or, you might just land at archangel itself, your choice)

what do you say?

[Young Grasshopper]

@Axistiger13:

I�ve an new idea:

buy an x number of tt�s, place then in sz 112, (takes 2 turns, not adjacent ot any IC) load them with troops, and land not in britain, but at nenetsia, the territory just east of archangel. (or, you might just land at archangel itself, your choice)

what do you say?

That landing is a viable option, however, only at the right time in the game. As Germany, you will need to make sure that your fleet doesn’t get trapped in the north sea leaving your side of the channel coast unprotected. I have done a landing like that in the past with good success, but IMO the game situation has to warrant it.

[atease]

@Young:

@Axistiger13:

I�ve an new idea:

buy an x number of tt�s, place then in sz 112, (takes 2 turns, not adjacent ot any IC) load them with troops, and land not in britain, but at nenetsia, the territory just east of archangel. (or, you might just land at archangel itself, your choice)

what do you say?

That landing is a viable option, however, only at the right time in the game. As Germany, you will need to make sure that your fleet doesn’t get trapped in the north sea leaving your side of the channel coast unprotected. I have done a landing like that in the past with good success, but IMO the game situation has to warrant it.

agreed, unless you can defend the transports against 2-3 planes and possibly boats, it’s a risky endeavour. And depending on how many transports you can bring about, perhaps for little benefits.

[Young Grasshopper]

@atease:

Bang on Grasshopper. Literally, as a Russian facing a G1 Barb, you are never sure of any of your choices, as they always translate into either a military victory on one battle or a better strategic move (such as consolidating territories or strategic retreat), but never both.

Couple that with SBing the closest russian factories and you’re guaranteed to be in Moscow at G6. In addition, you give free reins to Japan in Asia as the russian player will probably not be sending tanks-mechs there.

You force Russia to concentrate their ressource all on the germans (or face faster defeat), thus giving more leeway to the italians and Japan.

and as you say i really dont care to lose 4-5 tanks if that means that i kill 6-7 infantry plus a couple artillery. Chances are he has nothing to even threaten your forces that will kill his counter-attack. His reinforcements are more expensive to replace than yours.

If going after Moscow is your thing, sure…. I guess you could be there in round 6. I like to gain the Russian minor ICs in the north and south by round 3 or 4, and out produce them from there. This allows you to conduct expensive operations in the Med and Atlantic without spreading your resources to thin.

[elevenjerk]

Epic Fail!!!  I tried a variation of the G1 attack on Russia and made one crucial error so I thought I would share (for those interested of course) so no one else makes the mistake i did.

Purchased 6 art 2 inf

Bessarabia 1 Inf 1 armor 1 tac  (I took the other inf and put him in Yugo to strafe back to romania after round 1 of battle)
Eastern Poland  2 Inf 1 armor 1 tac 1 fighter
Belarus 3 inf 1 armor 1 tac

Here is where I tried to add a little more to Grasshoppers plan

sz 115 1 cruiser 2 fighters 1 tac 1 tt 1 inf 1 art to attack vyborg (3 inf) along with two bombers.

2 inf from norway to finland to make 6 inf in finland
6 inf 2 art + 1 inf from romania to yugoslavia.  Figured that no matter what happened I would roll 1 round and strafe.  Didn’t think I would win.
sz 111  1 battleship 2 subs 2 fighters.
sz 106 1 sub
sz 91 2 subs
France 4 inf 2 art 4 mech 6 armor
Normandy 3 inf 1 art

So I beat the cruiser in 91 with a first shot attack.
Got the destroyer and transport in 106 and kept my sub.
Pretty bad dice made me lose everything in 111 and he had a damaged battleship left.
Got 4 hits (amazingly) in Yugo and strafed to Romania
Lost 1 inf in bessarabia so I had an armor remain and lost nothing in eastern poland or belarus.

Here is where it gets bad

sz 115 He rolls a 1 for the first shot attack and takes out my cruiser which in turn means I can’t get his sub
        He then rolls a 2 for his cruiser and gets a fighter
Allies -12
Axis -22

Now I have to retreat my tt back to 114 where he is surely dead on the next turn

Allies -12
Axis -36

Meanwhile my two bombers that were going to assist my inf and art have to fight one round before they can retreat.  I get 1 hit, he gets 1 hit

Allies -15
Axis -48

On the allies turn

Russia attacks finland with 4 inf 2 fighter 1 tac  on my 6 inf    Wins while I took out 3 inf 1 fighter.  2 IPC 3 IPC bonus
Norway gets taken by UK 3 IPC I lost 5 IPC bonus.

IPC swing 45  since I have no transports to take those back until my next turn when I have to buy them

Allies +23
Axis -22

He will actually be able to hold finland for three turns because of units he moved in to protect it.

So all this is to say I got hosed on a 1 and 6 chance of losing my cruiser but if you choose to emulate the russia side of this attack (which I think could be a good one cause you get 10 of russias inf instead of just 7) make sure to purchase navy to drop in 114 to protect the tt that has to retreat or buy another tt in 113 to be able to take norway/finland back.  I will be trying this attack again and hope for better luck next time.

[Young Grasshopper]

@elevenjerk:

Epic Fail!!! I tried a variation of the G1 attack on Russia and made one crucial error so I thought I would share (for those interested of course) so no one else makes the mistake i did.

Purchased 6 art 2 inf
Artillery are unnecessary at this point in the game, because they won’t get to the front fast enough to support the infantry you move east to counter the Russian counter. Round 1 Germany needs air units and a destroyer, but if you wanted land units…. 6 Mech infantry would have been a more efficient purchase.

Bessarabia 1 Inf 1 armor 1 tac (I took the other inf and put him in Yugo to strafe back to romania after round 1 of battle)
Eastern Poland 2 Inf 1 armor 1 tac 1 fighter
Belarus 3 inf 1 armor 1 tac
I think you mean Baltic States here, because you can’t reach Belarus G1. That said, Germany didn’t move enough units into these attacks, and therefore left themselves weak to take the Russian territories needed to provoke Russia into countering.

Here is where I tried to add a little more to Grasshoppers plan

sz 115 1 cruiser 2 fighters 1 tac 1 tt 1 inf 1 art to attack vyborg (3 inf) along with two bombers.

2 inf from norway to finland to make 6 inf in finland
6 inf 2 art + 1 inf from romania to yugoslavia. Figured that no matter what happened I would roll 1 round and strafe. Didn’t think I would win.
sz 111 1 battleship 2 subs 2 fighters. Not enough
sz 106 1 sub
sz 91 2 subs 110 is more important
France 4 inf 2 art 4 mech 6 armor
Normandy 3 inf 1 art Normandy not necessary until G2

So I beat the cruiser in 91 with a first shot attack.
Got the destroyer and transport in 106 and kept my sub.
Pretty bad dice made me lose everything in 111 and he had a damaged battleship left.
Got 4 hits (amazingly) in Yugo and strafed to Romania
Lost 1 inf in bessarabia so I had an armor remain and lost nothing in eastern poland or belarus.

Here is where it gets bad

sz 115 He rolls a 1 for the first shot attack and takes out my cruiser which in turn means I can’t get his sub Your cruiser means nothing in this scenario, you need a destroyer to engage his sub, this makes your G1 attack on the Russian boats unessasary this early in the game because you don’t have a destroyer.
He then rolls a 2 for his cruiser and gets a fighter
Allies -12
Axis -22

Now I have to retreat my tt back to 114 where he is surely dead on the next turn

Allies -12
Axis -36

Meanwhile my two bombers that were going to assist my inf and art have to fight one round before they can retreat. I get 1 hit, he gets 1 hit Bombers are best used when hitting sea zones G1 or using them in Strategic Bombing Raids.
Allies -15
Axis -48

On the allies turn

Russia attacks finland with 4 inf 2 fighter 1 tac on my 6 inf Wins while I took out 3 inf 1 fighter. 2 IPC 3 IPC bonus
Norway gets taken by UK 3 IPC I lost 5 IPC bonus. When the UK are left with the ships in 110, they can land in Europe and do a lot of damage.

IPC swing 45 since I have no transports to take those back until my next turn when I have to buy them

Allies +23
Axis -22

He will actually be able to hold finland for three turns because of units he moved in to protect it. I wouldn’t continue this game because the misunderstanding of the sub vs cruiser battle really hurt your chances to win.

So all this is to say I got hosed on a 1 and 6 chance of losing my cruiser but if you choose to emulate the russia side of this attack (which I think could be a good one cause you get 10 of russias inf instead of just 7) make sure to purchase navy to drop in 114 to protect the tt that has to retreat or buy another tt in 113 to be able to take norway/finland back. I will be trying this attack again and hope for better luck next time. The cruiser should not have been used that way, or lost that way… after you read the rules about subs, you won’t make that attack again.

Try a closer version of my plan next time, your luck might change.

[cenator01]

“The cruiser should not have been used that way, or lost that way… after you read the rules about subs, you won’t make that attack again.”

Thats not true. If the sub chooses to keep on fighting, the cruser can and probably will sink the sub. If the sub submerges, you can still land your forces into Vyborg.
The only thing you did wrong in this fight was, that the USSR could as well scramble one plane from Leningrad, and therefore, would most likely sink your crusier and destroy your fighter and you won’t be able to land into Vyborg.

[Young Grasshopper]

You’re right, and I stand corrected. However, if you argue that the sub can submerge, and the fighter can scramble, the attack is still ill fated. It’s better to buy a destroyer G1, and attack the Russian fleet G2 when there are more planes available.

[elevenjerk]

Well like I said it was an epic fail and in my opinion all boiled down to an error in my purchase to not prepare for the first shot hit.

The cruiser should not have been used that way, or lost that way… after you read the rules about subs, you won’t make that attack again.

I did read the rules about this which is why I brought 2 fighters which allowed me to roll 3 3’s. I hit 2 of them when i ended up rolling so if he had not rolled the 1 for his sub then the battle is over.  I did however overlook the scramble but so did my playing partner which neither of us will do next time.

Your cruiser means nothing in this scenario, you need a destroyer to engage his sub, this makes your G1 attack on the Russian boats unessasary this early in the game because you don’t have a destroyer.

Actually my cruiser means I can get the sub if he chooses to stay and fight and the rule states that you roll all dice of the same attack value at the same time and the defender must take the max amount of hits.  This means if I get two hits with my 3’s he cannot say that my cruiser hit his cruiser and my airplane hit nothing since they can’t hit subs.

I did mean baltic states.

The sz 111 battle I rolled with my son about ten times before my buddy came over to play and not once did the UK remain with a unit. With that being said I will try to get another plane there.

Bombers are best used when hitting sea zones G1 or using them in Strategic Bombing Raids.

Again, this is another repercussion of him rolling the 1.  IF he didn’t roll that 1 I have 2 2’s and 2 4’s on three 2’s.  More than likely I will take them out and keep both bombers.  A risk I was willing to take in order to take out 3 more guys.  That in turn would eliminate the counter attack on finland.

Germany didn’t move enough units into these attacks, and therefore left themselves weak to take the Russian territories needed to provoke Russia into countering.

He did counterattack and I was able to take them all out very easily with my second wave and all I lost was some inf and 3 armor.  All I had was three more tanks available and I figured they would get lost in the counter attack.  Of course not the case in finland but that was discussed.

I wouldn’t continue this game because the misunderstanding of the sub vs cruiser battle really hurt your chances to win.

That doesn’t seem to fair for my playing partner “My first turn didn’t go like I wanted so lets start over”

I really enjoy reading your posts grasshopper but I don’t take anybody’s first moves and do exactly what they do.  If like the idea, I try to figure out the best way that I can think to do it.  I will try this opener again with a few tweaks here and there and hopefully my next post will be how good it worked:)