http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=9936
How is the balance with the new Alpha 2 changes? Please give your view.
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@Cmdr:
WIth America getting roughly 80 IPC a round and India at least 20 IPC a round, that should be enough to come to the defense of Russia (30ish IPC a round by then). Even if Italy is gettin 30 IPC a round, Germany 60 IPC a round and Japan 20 IPC a round (maximal I can possibly envision Japan having before the allies need to turn back to Europe.)
I cannot see how can India get 20 IPCs each round beyond round 3. Even with the changes made to alpha’s. If the idea is still a J3 attack with a total catch of DEI, India should not colect more than 5-6 IPCs (10 if one island is not taken by Japan). But maybe people are doing J1 attacks… I guess that no wonder what version, I’m always out of the mainstream strategies :lol:
But, if India is really doing 20 IPCs most of games, I agree that alpha is unbalanced. But I cannot talk much because I continue refusing to do free testing work for WOTC :roll:
I agree here…how is India making 20+ per round- by round 3-4 they should only be making like 6IPCs a turn. :? I do believe Japan needs something units but not as much as you claim for this reason. But like Func said if you are right then it is indeed imbalance and needs adjustment.
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@Cmdr:
It’s either India or Australia getting 20+ IPC a round. Japan cannot possibily hold it all, however. It is relatively simple to pile a 300 IPC fleet in SZ 42 (Java) take Java, build an airbase on Java and land 3 Australian fighters to protect the fleet even more if that’s what I need to do.
I prefer to have India make 20 IPC a round, since that gives me more money to go into Caucasus with, however, some prefer to let Australia earn 20 IPC, either way, it’s a moot issue. Japan cannot survive. Once it’s at war, it effectively has no National Objectives, there’s no way a good Allied player is going to let them have an NO for more than 1 or 2 rounds (even then…I fail to see how the Allied player did not put him or herself in position to irrevokably take the NO away and sink anything Japan left away from the main fleet.)
Japan CAN protect home island, that’s not all that hard to do really. But it is not the objective, the objective is to limit Japan to Home island, SZ 6 and immediate zones and that shouldn’t be hard to do by round 5 or 6 in most games, 8 or 9 at the very latest, giving America 4 rounds to build fleet and move them to Europe before Russia’s in dire straits as well as England a few rounds to start sending units into Persia to kick the Italians out.
Ah I see…however you must have to put 100% US effort into Pacific to do this well right??? In that case you are just giving the Euro Axis all of Europe and Africa. I doubt that Britain and Russia can “hold their own” that long- you say 11-12 rounds w/o American intervention??? Interesting…I can kinda of see it yet kinda of not because your looking into deep rounds. Its like thinking 10+ moves ahead in a chess game- however, this is easier when known openings are established as they are starting to be in AAGlobal. I’d like to play you a game/or watch a game and see it in practice first.
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@Cmdr:
As long as Moscow, Toronto and Washington DC do not fall, the Allies are HOLDING THEIR OWN against Germany, because Germany cannot win without one of those three Victory Cities.
I’m not sure of the basis of this statement. The European Axis can indeed win without controlling any of these cities. Only eight of the eleven victory cities on the Europe board are required to win.
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Just started reading this thread, and while I’m not quite sure if I believe jennifer, I have definitely thought from the beginning that America needed incentives in Europe as well as the pacific. Just a thought, but if this is the only thing that needs balancing (which it probably isn’t but could be a start) then a really easy fix could be to reduce america’s NO for holding the continental US from 10 to 5, and then give them a NO of 5 to hold a territory and have troops in Europe. I think this is similar to what anniversary did. And another bonus of this is that it gives a slight, slight incentive to hold Sicily or sardinia if the rest of Europe is too well defended. Plus, while not a hard objective, this is definitely realistic (b/c it was America’s goal since the start to invade france and such) and could even create the debate again with Britain as to whether or not invade Africa first or go straight to france. Plus, I think the general consensus is that even w/o the US crush of japan, the allies are slightly disadvantaged. This reduces America’s income by about maybe 15-20 ipcs over the 4 or so turns it would take to capture normandy or sicily or something. Thoughts?
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Germany controls (maybe, with GOOD dice and a not-so-good Allied player):
Poland
Novgorod
East Germany
France
EnglandItaly controls
S. Italy
EgyptIf Russia cannot hold Moscow and Stalingrad for 12 measly rounds, then the player is obviously outmatched.
Germany should have gotten smacked in the face in France, blown most of it’s income for Transports on the next round and gotten smacked in the face and the belly in England.
Italy should have been smacked in the belly in the Med.
Russia is unscathed for 4 rounds.
Even if Italy can get to Africa, it is not “All of Africa” by any means, it’s Egypt, Alexandria, Tobruk, Libya and maybe Tunis. Middle East it’s probably Jordan, Syria and Iraq with stacks of units in C. Persia until England and Russia have to withdraw, and that’s much later in the game.
What if you moved the Alaskan NO to Brazil?
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Yeah, I’m still convinced the best fix is:
Add 4inf, 1art to Japan
Add 2inf, 2art to SItaly
Erase US NO #5- the Mexican NOThat’s minus $5 per round for US. Plus $30 worth of land units for Axis (though they have to take the time to deploy them). This gives the Axis the flexibility to buy other things since they won’t need Inf, Art for a while since they would be stocked up. Also, putting them on the capitals will not hurt opening balance and make Axis a crusher at the beginning. Plus, putting a $5 per round squeeze on the US ought to help put the right amount of pressure needed for US to make more resourceful choices instead of acting like a careless lottery winner after round 4.
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@Cmdr:
It’s either India or Australia getting 20+ IPC a round. Japan cannot possibily hold it all, however. It is relatively simple to pile a 300 IPC fleet in SZ 42 (Java) take Java, build an airbase on Java and land 3 Australian fighters to protect the fleet even more if that’s what I need to do.
I definitively need to play at least 1 game of alpha2 to be sure, but I cannot see how ANZAC can make 20 IPCs. 15 maybe (the islands NO), but more … I can ensure you that, at least in OOB, if Japan plays well, ANZAC will colect 10 IPCs/round (maybe 15 in some cases), 5-6 for India and 4-12 for China. The strategy was simple in OOB: first China, then India, then turn to the east for the final victory. Unless that Larry messed totally the things with this alpha2 :roll: , it should be not different from OOB.
A point that I should rise is that many players are too used to ignoring Japan, thus now are too puzzled to play as Japan against an active USA. Such players need to practice naval warfare a bit more (saving NBs, the dinamic is much similar to Revised and AA50) before crying “Japan cannot win”
And the “I have to ignore some power to win” strats are getting very annoying. Global is so big that doesn’t allow much strategical or tactical errors. Surrendering a theater from the begining never was the better idea, no matter how many times has been done, and it’s even more certain in Global. Try ignore Germany as USA and you’ll get some submarines annoying convoy zones, and probably even the fall of Brazil, Panama or Cuba, at minimal german costs (maybe even raids on Canada or Scotland). And of course this superior income will be used almost totally against USSR, because England has much to do against Italy. USSR has much less income that Japan (if Japan plays right), etc.
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10 IPC For all Australian Territories
5 IPC NO for all Australian Territories
5 IPC NO for New Guinea= 20 IPC
Generally, my Australia also has Java (4 IPC), Celebes (3 IPC), Formosa (1 IPC) for a total of 28 IPC by the time Japan is bottled up. Sometimes they also have Sumatra, why? Because it allows me to use nothing but Australia to keep Japan bottled up (32 IPC a round, Japan is earning that or less by then anyway. But Australia needs a second IC to make efficient use of the income.)
Leaves England with 23 IPC (17 Starting + 1 Siam + 5 NO Original Territories = 23 IPC.)
America, meanwhile, has 52 IPC + 30 NO = 82 IPC and that doesn’t even include capturing anything of monetary value from Japan.
Therefore, by at the very latest round 11 or 12, there should be 328 IPC in American war units/transport units moving into Africa/Europe + 92 in British units moving up into Caucasus to bolster the Russian defense who, probably, are limited to Gorod Volga and Gorod Moskva (Stalingrad and Moscow) preventing a German win.
That with 23 IPC a round of British units coming up and 82 IPC (or more) of American units going over. And all that assumes Brazil was never even annexed!
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Functionetta:
Yes, the game is drastically different then OOB.
China should be earning 18 IPC a round in the beginning and the end with a reduction to 9 IPC a round in the middle. Towards the end, China should have a significant force of Artillery to assist them in keeping Japanese land forces at bay.
Unless Japan gets lucky with the dice, or neglects certain aspects so they can ignore everything and go after only China, in which case, China should be liberated in most part by round 6 or 7 by British forces.
Keep in mind, Japan lost A LOT of planes in Alpha 2, more NOs were put in, and some NOs were increased in strength.
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@Cmdr:
Leaves England with 23 IPC (17 Starting + 1 Siam + 5 NO Original Territories = 23 IPC.)
If the Japanese can take a whole two territories, (Kwangtung and Borneo), that is reduced by more than half.
If your Japan can’t even take Kwangtung, yeah, that’s a problem.
If ANZAC has seized Java, Celebes, Sumatra, and Dutch New Guinea, that’s a problem, too.
I don’t think either of those is all that common, though. I guess that means our Allied players must really suck, right?
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Seizing them for one round early in the game isn’t the problem, the problem is Japans complete lack of ability for holding them, hence why I said around turn 8 ish. By then Japan should easily be beat back to Manchuria/Korea, Soviet Far East and Japan itself with probably Okinawa and Iwo Jima for a grand total of 22 IPC (if they trade Jehol back and forth with China.)
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@Cmdr:
Keep in mind,
the Axis combined earn 115 IPC, including most round 4 attacks and NOs.
the Allies combined earn 196 IPC, including most NOs and Territories by round 4Ah…I thought this calculation included a 20+ India and ANZAC.
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No. Even though my India in one game is earning 29 IPC and my Australia in the same game is earning 24 IPC, I do not consider that “normal” it should probably be one or the other for a long time. After Japan is driven back and you have 15 IPC in NOs coming into Australia/England (10 Australia, 5 England) you might see two real nations out of it.
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How did we go from:
@Cmdr:
By round 3 I have:
Germany:
- Sweeden NO +5
- Russia NO +5
- London NO +5
- Egypt NO +5
- London NO +5
- TT = 40-45 IPC, say 40
Total: 65 IPC
Japan:
- Dutch East Indies NO +5
- 7 Pacific Islands NO +5
- Either Hawaii or NSW NO +5
- TT = 50 to 55 PC, say 50 IPC
Total: 65 IPC
Italy:
- Med NO +5
- N. Africa NO +5
- Iraq +2
- NW Persia +2
- C. Persia +2
- 3 of 4 NO +5
- TT = 24 IPC
Total: 45 IPC
Total Axis income by Round 3/4 = 65 + 65 + 45 = 175 IPC
Allies, on the other hand, have about 37 IPC for Russian TT, no NOs.
0 IPC for England Europe
4 IPC for England Pacific TT, no NOs. (- convoy raids)
20 IPC for ANZAC (assumes Japan went Hawaii instead of NSW)
70 IPC for America including NOs
4 IPC for China
0 IPC for France
EDIT: 37 for RussiaTotal:
98135 IPC less any convoy raids.
175 IPC for the Axis less 98 IPC for the Allies = 77 IPC advantage for the Axis.
Assumes Sea Lion success and non-crazy dice.
to:
@Cmdr:
Keep in mind,
the Axis combined earn 115 IPC, including most round 4 attacks and NOs.
the Allies combined earn 196 IPC, including most NOs and Territories by round 4?
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22 February the shear audacity of the situation was not fully understood. At the time, it was thought America would divide itself in an attempt to liberate England, thus, it did not have the equipment to push Japan back.
Now, we realize, SCREW ENGLAND! We don’t need it, it’s a great distraction for Germany, and it kills some German units making life easier on Russia! Go for the gold! Crush Japan like a 15 year old crushes a zit!
There’s no way Germany can win the game before Japan is bottled.
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crazyness, i have never seen japan have too much of a problem keeping anzacs at no more than 15 on average and uk no more than 6-7 on average. Jpan shoudl easily have control of most of china, malay, borneo, kwang, and contesting shan/burma. That would also take out the UK NOnd the Anzac NO. DEI, as long as you have a strong navy sitting in the phillipene area, you should be able to to maintain resonable control of DEI(having the NO active most of the time). You should then be able to stall to the US from getting a significant break through for several turns. Also, you can send some guys to alaska to cause the US to divert guy to reclaim his NO thus slowing him down. India should be a war of attrition, after you clear out china, you should be able to shift you forces south towards burma. Just ad a minor IC in FIC and/or Maylay, and it will only be a matter of time before india falls (especially when you are convoy raiding with subs). The thing is, I don’t see germany not taking or at least crippling RUS any later than round 7 or 8. Its FUBAR if you say russia can handle germany alone np.
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It sounds like a war is brewing on the horizon, maybe more than one. Could you just imagine if Japan had one free round of purchasing and non com’s? Then they could …… you fill in the blank.
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GHR,
I am glad that your allied opponents are not yet aware of how to utterly destroy Japan.
In most games I see these days, Japan is strong on rounds 4 and 5 and moderate on Round 6. Round 7, 8 and 9 shows Japan being steadily beat back. Round 8 reveals American interest in the Atlantic beginning, as their navy is now strong enough to keep the Japanese one at bay.
Russia is more than capable in keeping Germany from winning the war for that amount of time and then some.
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Jen, Im glad your axis opponents are not yet aware on how to stall on one map and to steamroll the other.
If germany is decent, he should be at the gates of moscow by round 7-8 (unless he does a G4 attack or halfassed a G2/3 attack).
This is made alot easier if italy can-opens like he should.
Because of the long distances from WUS towards Japan’s area of operations and the fact that defending is alot easier attacking can make Japan stall out the US for ages. If anzac ships go alone, they can be picked off with minimal effort. If they hang with the main us fleet, then they will be only defending and present no serious issue unless u foolishly do a giant attack.
With the small raids on DEI being counter attacked and retaken, and the main fleet sitting around, the allies will need to commit all the way till round 7-8 before japan is close to contained. It will also take another 2-3 turns logistically for the US to threaten germany/italy in Europe.
Also, if russia commits what it would need to if it tries to take scandinavia, then germ can just walk to nov and cut the army off, or power through the south to the caucuses and smack russia up hard.
If germany goes sealion G3 and succeeds, he should have enough guys sitting in the east to hold off russia for a turn or so, and can counte rin scand with the transport mass of guys.
3
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30ish ipcs of pillage plus territorial gains/NO will quickly make up for being behind in the east and will help italy to get in a solid position when the US comes in force, especially when the US would most likely go for uk first.
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