Recipe for a G4 conquest of Moscow

[Blitchga]

I think the largest downfall comes from a zealous Soviet player. I tend to buy very offensively as the Soviets and I think that counter attacks could be a bit of a problem for this strategy. It could delay moves and force Germany and Italy to move through the Soviet Union slower.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Nice to see an anti russian strategy. I love that big thick front especially now Rusaia makes some money.

Playing chess against humans i try to get them to react in force someplace i dont care about while i isolate a pawn or two to get me an endgame advantage.

If Japan went balls into Siberia J1 it sometimes pulls a Russian fighter, mech inf and tank. Not my fav Japanese move but your strategy is ambitious. Hey, every little bit helps.

Russia should place something like 90ipc worth of units by round 4. Given the biggest turtle of an opponent thats 30 inf in moscow though.

At least you are close enough to keep them from helping india or china

[Chompers2]

So far it appears to me that playing against a skilled allied opponent that Germany can not beat Russia on it’s own except with insane dice luck or something.  That does not mean the game is broken it just means that against a skilled allied player that cutting into Russia will be a joint venture by both Japan and Germany.  Russia makes a lot of IPCs and Germany has to fight USA and Britan.  For Germany to get a win on its on against a Russian opponent who builds only inf and art is going to be very hard especially when the allies land in Europe.  Japan has to help Germany if the axis goal is too finish Russia off and take Moscow.  That being said I am thinking of plans for the Axis that involve not having to take Moscow to achieve victory conditions.

[Blitchga]

@Chompers#2:

So far it appears to me that playing against a skilled allied opponent that Germany can not beat Russia on it’s own except with insane dice luck or something.  That does not mean the game is broken it just means that against a skilled allied player that cutting into Russia will be a joint venture by both Japan and Germany.  Russia makes a lot of IPCs and Germany has to fight USA and Britan.  For Germany to get a win on its on against a Russian opponent who builds only inf and art is going to be very hard especially when the allies land in Europe.  Japan has to help Germany if the axis goal is too finish Russia off and take Moscow.  That being said I am thinking of plans for the Axis that involve not having to take Moscow to achieve victory conditions.

I have had no problem beating the Soviets alone as Germany. Major on G1 and 10 units a turn for the next 4-5 turns and then smaller buys as you have gained the advantage and need to keep that luftwaffe and sub force strong to beat off UK and US forces.

[Chompers2]

Maybe I will give this a try and see how far in I can push.

[Hobbes]

I’ve looked into this strat before on the Europe forum under the USSR Invasion thread and tried it. The main difference to yours is that G bought an IC for Romania on G1 and 10 armor for it on G2, allowing to move 18 inf, 5 art and 13 armor to Belarus on G3.

One issue about your strat is that, since it is Global Russia’s income goes from 28 to 37, it may just give her enough offensive power to crush the Belarus stack on R3 if it builds 2 rounds of only artillery/tanks.

But assuming Russia was more shy on its purchases or that Italy has taken Belarus first then the optimal Russian move is to abandon Novgorod, keep 1 infantry on Smolensk/Bryansk and mass everything on Russia. That way the Italian can opener movement is prevented and I doubt that Germany will be able to move its stack to Smolensk/Bryansk on G4 if the Russians keep adding artillery. And even if it moves a G5 attack on Moscow most likely will be unachievable, even with the additional planes, since Germany hasn’t built any land units and Russia should be sitting upon a lot of infantry.

[Blitchga]

@Hobbes:

I’ve looked into this strat before on the Europe forum under the USSR Invasion thread and tried it. The main difference to yours is that G bought an IC for Romania on G1 and 10 armor for it on G2, allowing to move 18 inf, 5 art and 13 armor to Belarus on G3.

One issue about your strat is that, since it is Global Russia’s income goes from 28 to 37, it may just give her enough offensive power to crush the Belarus stack on R3 if it builds 2 rounds of only artillery/tanks.

But assuming Russia was more shy on its purchases or that Italy has taken Belarus first then the optimal Russian move is to abandon Novgorod, keep 1 infantry on Smolensk/Bryansk and mass everything on Russia. That way the Italian can opener movement is prevented and I doubt that Germany will be able to move its stack to Smolensk/Bryansk on G4 if the Russians keep adding artillery. And even if it moves a G5 attack on Moscow most likely will be unachievable, even with the additional planes, since Germany hasn’t built any land units and Russia should be sitting upon a lot of infantry.

I forgot to mention that I do not invade the Soviet Union until G5 in most games and occasionally on G4. Japan is giving them enough to worry about in Global. Also I do not go for Moscow, I make priorities and stick to them. Hitler could not decide which objective was the most important, pick one and throw everything at and then move on to objective 2 but do not go for more than one at once. I hit Leningrad, allowing me to hold the north and get another bonus. From there the forces continually push in without putting themselves in danger while a new offensive is beginning in the south from my Romanian Major. Buy cheap units, Russia is buying cheap units and you are not going to counter them by spending on expensive things like tanks. I beat them by buying infantry and artillery and simply having more of them. Granted I also have a larger tank force but I add very little to it as the remaining money goes into Luftwaffe and U-boats to keep the other allies honest.

[Chompers2]

I really want to spend points to boast the Luftwaffe as well as add subs.  I am just afraid if I do that I will be lacking boots on the ground.  Maybe I need to revisit my math on this.

[Pelanderfunk]

I just had great success against Russia with Germany (and this is after losing 5-6 games in a row with them).

All of my G1-4 builds were nothing but Mechs and the occasional Sub (only if i was going to risk my baltic sub in an attack, and then only to keep britain from getting their 5 point bonus)

G1 Eastern Poland with everything that can reach it, France with all ground in the west and most of the airforce (save a mech in Belgium to defend), sub attacks on the two UK transports, attack Yugo with inf and art from Southern Germany, but retreat to Romania after one round.
G2 Western Ukraine with everything that can reach it, all tanks and mech should be moving towards the eastern front if they can’t attack. Bessarabia with the romanian guys.
G3 Keep your big stack in Western Ukraine, the Bessarabia guys should take Ukraine
G4 Everything into Bryansk (sp?)
G5 Moscow

Even if the Russian player is building nothing but infantry, Moscow won’t have enough to withstand this full force. At G3 you can evaluate your options – I took Leningrad (not in my original plan) G3 after the Russian player made a mistake and left it practically undefended. An I2 tank/mech can opener attack into the Baltic States opened up a path for my troops. Once you are in Brynsk, you have the option of striking at either of the three cities, especially if you have some italians around to take down Russian 1 infantry screeners, so if the dice gods shit on you, all is definitely not lost.

Aftermath:
I took Moscow G5. G6 Stalingrad. UK took Norway and built a major there – they’ll get the first use of it UK8. Fortress Europe is protected by large inf stacks and aa on the cost, more inf and art in France and Western Germany, and mobile response units (Tanks + mech) in strategic locations throughout the continent.  It’s about to be G8, and I stand to take Leningrad this turn, India G9 with a good portion of the stack that took Moscow.

Downsides:

-In order to save as much of my tanks and mechs, I used almost all of my airforce to take france. This means that my sub were only able to take out the UK transports – I know some people would go for the destroyer-less battleship/cruisers, but my main objective was to slow the UK, not fight them.
-Italy really needs to be involved in Russia, which means spending most of its money on tank/mechs. I fought back and forth in Africa, but eventually I was defeated by a UK minor in Iran (though my German tanks will be taking it next turn :) ).
-Japan needs to threaten the US. This is just a 2 player game, so I was in complete control, but it might be harder with a couple Axis players. I did a J3 attack and fought some major naval battles against the US. As soon as the US started evacuating the Pacific fleets to fight in Europe, I landed in Alaska and bought a couple transports, so it would look like I was committed to a North American front. It worked like a charm. The US fleet turned right back around, and the US started building defensively, buying me a few more turns in Europe. But these moves have left Japan in a pretty weak spot. They only hold half the DEI, the Phillipines and a major in Shanghai. If not for the inevitable fall of India at the hands of the Germans, Japan would be screwed.

[calvinhobbesliker]

Wait, so you left the UK with both Battleships? I think the allies had to have played very badly to lose in that situation

[Pelanderfunk]

@calvinhobbesliker:

Wait, so you left the UK with both Battleships? I think the allies had to have played very badly to lose in that situation

Do come now; that’s a bit of an exaggeration.

I’m not contesting the Atlantic – that makes UK battleships good for bombardment only. Assuming that they land troops every turn (which they did), the battleships will do an average of 1.5 hits a turn, which would be on infantry, as that’s the only thing I have defending my coasts. The cost to replace the 1.5 inf is 4ipc/turn. So suggesting that not destroying the UK battleships on the first turn automatically hands the game to the allies means that the game depends on 4 ipc/turn.

I lost 9 ipc/turn when my Japan failed to take the last DEI (java) J3 with some of the worst dice rolling I’ve ever seen. Surely that’s worse than leaving the two UK battleships.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Pelanderfunk:

@calvinhobbesliker:

Wait, so you left the UK with both Battleships? I think the allies had to have played very badly to lose in that situation

Do come now; that’s a bit of an exaggeration.

I’m not contesting the Atlantic – that makes UK battleships good for bombardment only. Assuming that they land troops every turn (which they did), the battleships will do an average of 1.5 hits a turn, which would be on infantry, as that’s the only thing I have defending my coasts. The cost to replace the 1.5 inf is 4ipc/turn. So suggesting that not destroying the UK battleships on the first turn automatically hands the game to the allies means that the game depends on 4 ipc/turn.

I lost 9 ipc/turn when my Japan failed to take the last DEI (java) J3 with some of the worst dice rolling I’ve ever seen. Surely that’s worse than leaving the two UK battleships.

No, they’re also good for killing the Italian fleet in the Med or eventually killing the German fleet when the Baltic is opened

[Chompers2]

I don’t think I would do well as the axis if the battleships both lived.  Brittan would not even have to buy inf the first two turns as they could focus on Africa and landing in Europe from the word go.

[Pelanderfunk]

@calvinhobbesliker:

No, they’re also good for killing the Italian fleet in the Med or eventually killing the German fleet when the Baltic is opened

After 5 games of Europe and 2 of Global, I just assume that I’m not going to have much of an Italian fleet after UK1, aside from maybe saving the the destr/cruis/transport for a turn. Though this is one of the first games that I didn’t go all out on the UK navy G1 – I haven’t really seen a correlation between taking out the UK home fleet and saving my Italian navy, the UK player will sink it no matter what I do up north.

As far as the Baltic navy goes, the Kill Russia strategy uses it to take out the Russian navy early, then maybe reinforce Norway/Finland with the transport, but I pretty much gave up on Norway anyways. I think the UK player eventually took it out with planes.

I definitely see the importance of taking out UK’s navy G1 if you’re going for any kind of naval/Sealion build, but when you’re focused completely on a land battle with Russia, I say cut your losses. I like taking out the transports, because that postpones a landing until UK2. I can handle the early UK landings, and by US4, I’m ready for the bigger American landings too (but it also really helps to have Japan in Alaska/Hawaii).

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Its just a rare opportunity to have them left open. Also makes it more likely the Italian fleet will live and gives the UK an opportunity to flub up and underprepare for sealion.

I really like your thoughts on the eastern front.  In my current game Italy is making twenty something so they can push a couole troops into Russia and have been ‘backed up’ towards the Caucasus or India by the brits who are pushing north from south africa.