Carrier Based Fighters

[losttribe04]

Would troops in transports also fall into this topic?

LT

[TimTheEnchanter]

@Cmdr:

dezrtfish:

Further, it appears that your page 30 quote says that if the carrier moves FIRST, then the fighters are cargo.  If you declare that you’re launching the allied fighters and then move your carrier, then the carrier is not moving first.

Since originally posting the question that got this started, I’ve done a bit more digging.  Focusing on the unit descriptions…

Both sets of rules (oob and lhtr 2.0) clearly state “Fighters from friendly powers can take off and land from your carriers, but only during that power’s turn.” [emphasis added] the only stated exception is when the carrier it was “based on” is sunk on defense.  Not “any carrier”, it’s the carrier the fig is BASED on.) Any concept of them “taking off” or launching as you call it, when it’s not their turn is therefore not part of the rules.  If attacked, they “are considered to be defending in the air and can be chosen as casualties” but to do so they clearly don’t take off and land because that happens ONLY DURING THAT POWER’S TURN with the one clearly stated exception for defense at sea.

So…The planes are “considered to” defend in the air through the magic of game rules but they never actually take off from or land on their boat because that only happens on that power’s turn. and they can otherwise only land on another one in the seazone if the carrier they were based on is sunk.

Both OOB rules and LHTR 2.0 use this terminology that planes take off and land from a carrier “only during that [the fig-owning] power’s turn” and that landing on another carrier can happen if the fig they are “based on” is sunk.  This seems to be a clear indication that, in both rulesets, the planes are associated with (“based” on) a particular ship, and that they can not be launched or land except during their turn with one specific, noted exception.

[Guest]

Thanks Tim.

BTW:  In more than 60 games and about 15000 moves, I cannot recall a single case of 2 loaded AC’s with the “wrong” nation’s FIGs on them ever coming up.

[Krieghund]

@Cmdr:

LHTR, as was quoted, states that “Fighters from friendly powers can take off and land from your carriers, but only during that power’s turn.”

That contradicts the rules in the box and limits the fighters to only launching and recovering when the owner of the fighter decides to launch and recover them on that player’s turn, not on the owner of the carrier’s turn.

That’s the difference between LHTR’s phrasing and OOB’s phrasing.

But, as Tim has just pointed out, the exact same sentence appears on page 30 in the box rules.

[TimTheEnchanter]

@Cmdr:

LHTR, as was quoted, states that “Fighters from friendly powers can take off and land from your carriers, but only during that power’s turn.”

That contradicts the rules in the box and limits the fighters to only launching and recovering when the owner of the fighter decides to launch and recover them on that player’s turn, not on the owner of the carrier’s turn.

That’s the difference between LHTR’s phrasing and OOB’s phrasing.

The thing is, that exact quote is in both rulesets.  For OOB it’s on p.30, as part of Unit Profiles/Air units/Aircraft Carriers/Special Abilities/Carry Fighters.  I don’t see why you would think that doesn’t apply to OOB.

Edit: kreighund beat me too it.

[AxisOfEvil]

Wow, it is certainly clear to me that I will never have enough passion for this game to make a post in this thread!!!  Wait, I just did. Can you imagine those two doofuses from the utube video reading this thread!!  :)

PS- so How many of you are lawyers?

[Jennifer]

I’ve screened through all 80+ pages of both manuals, and the ONLY TIME I see a restriction on two carriers with 4 fighters from two or more nations PROHIBITING a carrier and fighter set from leaving is the LHTR 2.0.

I think you may have accidentally read the LHTR 2.0 not the box rules when you found that one.  I went through pretty meticulously and even opened the PDF, converted to word (because I know how to use word better than Adobe) and did a find/replace search to find the text and it didn’t pop.

The only time I’ve seen it appear, currently, is the LHTR 2.0 version where they specifically locked fighters to carriers until the owner of the fighters move them.  In the book it specifically states that the carrier owner decides whether or not to bring the fighters along and if the fighters happen to be of a friendly nation and not the carrier owners, they are treated as cargo if brought along.  But it is very clear the book rules allow for the possibility of leaving friendly fighters behind.

In the other thread I had something around 12-15 different quotes from multiple pages demonstrating that fact.  I’ll concede that LHTR 2.0 (maybe even 1.3, didnt check) changed the rule, and that the rule change can be understandable; but the original rules never said that Fighter AB-1209 has to be on the USS Deadmeat until the owner of Fighter AB-1209 decides otherwise.  The original rules state that the owner of USS Deadmeat decides when Fighter AB-1209 is kicked off, assuming Fighter AB-1209 has a valid carrier in that sea zone to be placed on when USS Deadmeat leaves.

[dezrtfish]

From the box rules:
Page 30 (Aircraft Carriers)
Carry Fighters: An aircraft carrier can carry up to two fighters, including those belonging to friendly powers. Fighters from friendly powers can take off and land from your carriers, but only during that power’s turn. A fighter must be launched from the carrier’s initial position to participate in an attack this turn. If the carrier moves first, the fighters on board are cargo. Fighters belonging to friendly powers on attacking carriers are always treated as cargo, as it is not their turn. Your aircraft carrier can move to a sea zone where one of your fighters has ended its move (and in fact, it must do so) but cannot move any farther that turn.
Fighter Defense: Whenever a carrier is attacked, its fighters (even those belonging to friendly powers) are considered to be defending in the air and can be chosen as casualties rather than the carrier. (However, a fighter can’t be chosen as a casualty from a submarine hit, because submarines can attack only sea units. See Submarines, on page 32.)

Jen this cut and pasted directly from the PDF on the AH/WotC website rules download.  The second sentance is the one I believe you are questioning.

[dezrtfish]

@AxisOfEvil:

Wow, it is certainly clear to me that I will never have enough passion for this game to make a post in this thread!!!  Wait, I just did. Can you imagine those two doofuses from the utube video reading this thread!!  :)

PS- so How many of you are lawyers?

I’m not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night… :wink:

[newpaintbrush]

@dezrtfish:

@AxisOfEvil:

Wow, it is certainly clear to me that I will never have enough passion for this game to make a post in this thread!!!  Wait, I just did. Can you imagine those two doofuses from the utube video reading this thread!!  :)

PS- so How many of you are lawyers?

I’m not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night… :wink:

That makes u a lawyer in my book.

[dezrtfish]

Are you hiring any lawyers?

[Jennifer]

You are incorrect, sir.  OOB says that you launch fighters before moving your carrier.  It does not specify that the fighters being launched have to be used in combat.  Therefore, if I were to move the US Carrier from SZ 52 to SZ 45 (enemy sea zone because of the Solomon Islands) and back to SZ 52 I would have the option to launch the fighters on her deck, regardless of nation of origin.

[dezrtfish]

Cut and pasted directly from the pdf on the WotC web site page 30 http://www.wizards.com/avalonhill/rules/axis2004.pdf:

Carry Fighters: An aircraft carrier can carry up to two fighters, including those belonging to friendly powers. Fighters from friendly powers can take off and land from your carriers, but only during that power’s turn. A fighter must be launched from the carrier’s initial position to participate in an attack this turn. If the carrier moves first, the fighters on board are cargo. Fighters belonging to friendly powers on attacking carriers are always treated as cargo, as it is not their turn. Your aircraft carrier can move to a sea zone where one of your fighters has ended its move (and in fact, it must do so) but cannot move any farther that turn.

I don’t see how it could be any more clear

[Jennifer]

@dezrtfish:

Cut and pasted directly from the pdf on the WotC web site page 30 http://www.wizards.com/avalonhill/rules/axis2004.pdf:

Carry Fighters: An aircraft carrier can carry up to two fighters, including those belonging to friendly powers. Fighters from friendly powers can take off and land from your carriers, but only during that power’s turn. A fighter must be launched from the carrier’s initial position to participate in an attack this turn. If the carrier moves first, the fighters on board are cargo. Fighters belonging to friendly powers on attacking carriers are always treated as cargo, as it is not their turn. Your aircraft carrier can move to a sea zone where one of your fighters has ended its move (and in fact, it must do so) but cannot move any farther that turn.

I don’t see how it could be any more clear

Notice the wording.  It specifically references fighters that are not launched before moving the carrier.  It does not say the fighters have to remain on the carrier, in fact, earlier it specifically states that the carrier owner can launch any number of fighters, friendly or not, before moving the carrier and only fighters launched BEFORE moving the carrier MAY engage in combat.  So even your own fighters that are unlaunched on attacking carriers are always treated as cargo as well.

According to the rules, an attacking carrier can LAUNCH fighters before attacking.  It does not say you can only launch your own fighters, it says you can launch fighters.

Therefore, if you chose to leave the allied fighters unlaunched, THEN they are cargo.  If you launched them, then they remain in the sea zone they were in before you moved the aircraft carrier.

That read of the rules is supported by the dozen or so quotes I posted in the other thread from the rules in regards to movement of carriers, combat with carriers both on defense and attack and movement of fighters to carriers.

[Krieghund]

Folks, let’s stay focused here.  The issue boils down to this: the statement from LHTR that Jennifer said convinced her that fighters may not leave a friendly carrier when it’s not their turn was this:

Fighters from friendly powers can take off and land from your carriers, but only during that power’s turn.

That statement also appears in the box rules on page 30, three sentences up from the “flaming” sentence that Dezrtfish just quoted.  The issue here is that if that statement is decisive for LHTR, it should also be decisive for the box rules.

Jennifer?

[Adlertag]

What we see here, are failure of communication, since some gamers are not at the luxury of using their own language. Jen from Russia, me from Norway, IL from Germany, Massiomo from Italy and so on, and a rule book writen in English.

I know some of you love to switch carriers and trannies as a strategy, and that is good as long as everybody agree on the rules. In my playgroup we have this dude who always buy a carrier in G1, and in G2 send the Med fleet through Suez, and shuck Japan infantry from India to Africa. So UK has an infantry in Italian East Africa, now Japan send a japanese Battleship to shore bombard, and then attack with two japanese infantry from the german tranny and two japanese fighters from the german carrier. The issues often starts when he move in his empty japanese carrier to join, and land two german fighters on it for protection, and later in mid game want to split this fleet, and swith the fighters on the carriers and the men on the trannies, not to mention who owns that AA-gun wich suddenly appered in Africa.

But to be honest, I think this game would be better if not mixing units. I even have issues with UK/US troops landing in Karelia and marching through Sovjet territory, but tthen A&A Europe always was my favorite game

[dezrtfish]

@Adlertag:

What we see here, are failure of communication, since some gamers are not at the luxury of using their own language. Jen from Russia, me from Norway, IL from Germany, Massiomo from Italy and so on, and a rule book writen in English.

I know some of you love to switch carriers and trannies as a strategy, and that is good as long as everybody agree on the rules. In my playgroup we have this dude who always buy a carrier in G1, and in G2 send the Med fleet through Suez, and shuck Japan infantry from India to Africa. So UK has an infantry in Italian East Africa, now Japan send a japanese Battleship to shore bombard, and then attack with two japanese infantry from the german tranny and two japanese fighters from the german carrier. The issues often starts when he move in his empty japanese carrier to join, and land two german fighters on it for protection, and later in mid game want to split this fleet, and swith the fighters on the carriers and the men on the trannies, not to mention who owns that AA-gun wich suddenly appered in Africa.

But to be honest, I think this game would be better if not mixing units. I even have issues with UK/US troops landing in Karelia and marching through Sovjet territory, but tthen A&A Europe always was my favorite game

First off, Jen moved to america when she was a kid I believe over twenty years ago.

Second, your example is completely against the rules and is what is refered to a “house rule”.

Third, how about German:

Besondere Fähigkeiten
Kampfflugzeuge befördern: Ein Flugzeugträger kann bis zu 2 Kampfflugzeuge beherbergen, einschließlich derjenigen, die verbündeten Weltmächten gehören. Kampfflugzeuge verbündeter Mächte können nur während des Zugs dieser Weltmacht auf Flugzeugträgern landen bzw. von ihnen aus starten.  Ein Kampfflugzeug muss von der ursprünglichen Position des Trägers gestartet werden, um in diesem Zug angreifen zu dürfen. Wenn der Träger zuerst zieht, gelten die Kampfflugzeuge an Bord als Fracht.  Kampfflugzeuge auf angreifenden Flugzeugträgern, die zu verbündeten Weltmächten gehören, gelten immer als Fracht, da sie gerade nicht am Zug sind. Dein Flugzeugträger muss in das Seegebiet ziehen, in dem eines deiner Kampfflugzeuge seinen Zug beendet hat, kann aber in diesem Zug nicht weiter ziehen.

[Corbeau Blanc]

I have to agree with dezrtfish

On page 30, the note says a AC involved in an attack ( first condition: attack move ) and bringing friendly fighters ( second condition ) treats them as cargo.
It does not says you are forced to bring them, only IF you bring them.
It does not says either you cannot do it on Non-Combat move.

If it is too much debate, you can always bring the AC to the sea zone after combat if it occured within 2 sea zones anyways. In non-combat move, no rules force you to bring the friendly fighters ( i beileive it’s same for attack ).

If this logic is not simple enough, i’d go more brutal by saying: Land the uk fighters on uk carrier, since the USA planes have no place to go they either go splash or go to nearby friendly territory ( in this case, the USA carrier now conveniently empty… ) The rule for extra move for landing in nearby save zone should be more than enough, since you DO get an extra move and in this case they actually don’t even have to move anyways since there is a landing place in the sea zone.

[AxisOfEvil]

OMG people!! Is there nothing left to discuss about this game? Let me try a feeble attempt at logic here. Everyone agrees that this fighter swap is illegal as outlined in LHTR 2.0 correct? the LHTR rule set is developed by the creator of the game, and is meant to better convey the intentions of the original rules, wording and all? So we know waht the intention is in regards to this specific rule, are we really spending so much effort into how one “COULD” or “SHOULD” intrepret the old vague wording? The intention of the rule was made clear by Larry himself, should we move on? I bet not one person in this arguement even uses OOB rules.  :)

[newpaintbrush]

(munches popcorn) I use OOB/FAQ rules mostly, but I wasn’t arguing.