• @ncscswitch:

    Right, it actually does not land until the end of ALL combat.

    So in your example, it COULD land in India, IF India did not fall to the enemy that turn.

    If India did fall, and there was not an allied AC in a SZ adjacent to SZ35, then the FIG would die.

    A couple follow-ups…

    1. Does the fighter still roll defense in the SZ combat before retreating?

    2. The fighter can retreat regardless of how many attacking units remain in the SZ combat, correct? (This is the only instance of a defending unit “retreating” from a battle without being shot at that I can think of)


  • The defending FIG does not have the choice to retreat.  It remains until the end of the battle.

    The only time the defending FIG move comes into play is if the FIG survives the battle either by
    A) the attacker is destroyed or
    B) the attacker retreats.


  • @ncscswitch:

    The defending FIG does not have the choice to retreat.  It remains until the end of the battle.

    The only time the defending FIG move comes into play is if the FIG survives the battle either by
    A) the attacker is destroyed or
    B) the attacker retreats.

    Well hell…my friends and I have been doing that one all wrong for quite a while now!  :-P

    Ya learn something every day.  :-)

  • 2007 AAR League

    quick question, probably an obvious answer

    SS attacks AC 2 FTR
    sub hits in the first strike round, and kills the AC
    do the fighters get to strike back?
    Im sure the answer is yes, but I would think it makes more sense to say no

    that sub attacks before anyone knows its there. those fighters dont get a chance to take off… in real life.
    of course it does take a little while for a carrier to sink…


  • @mateooo:

    quick question, probably an obvious answer

    SS attacks AC 2 FTR
    sub hits in the first strike round, and kills the AC
    do the fighters get to strike back?
    Im sure the answer is yes, but I would think it makes more sense to say no

    that sub attacks before anyone knows its there. those fighters dont get a chance to take off… in real life.
    of course it does take a little while for a carrier to sink…

    Since there is no DD present, the carrier is sunk in opening fire.
    According to LHTR, subs can submerge AFTER any round of battle as long as no enemy DD is present.  This implies the ftrs do indeed get to fire upon the sub.

    Of course, you could also w/d after the round of battle if the sub survived as well (instead of submerge)
    –-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Other variant rules allow your more realistic observation of a true sneak attack, like A&ARe (Enhanced)…

    sorry shameless plug there  :mrgreen:


  • @ncscswitch:

    Attacking FIGs can move the remainder of the allowed movement range.  If they have no moves left when they reach the battle (their only original landing choice was the AC that was lost during combat), or if no other landing zone is within range, they die.

    Oh, so in combat move phase you can actually use all 4 movement points of a fighter? (if you have or will have aircraft carrier in the destination combat space)


  • @tekkyy:

    @ncscswitch:

    Attacking FIGs can move the remainder of the allowed movement range.  If they have no moves left when they reach the battle (their only original landing choice was the AC that was lost during combat), or if no other landing zone is within range, they die.

    Oh, so in combat move phase you can actually use all 4 movement points of a fighter? (if you have or will have aircraft carrier in the destination combat space)

    yes, but then if you w/d from that battle, the ftrs that moved 4 can not come with you.


  • Axis roll is correct in that if you move 4 spaces to combat, and the AC withdraws, the FIGs cannot retreat.

    Also, you cannot partial retreat.

    So once you pull back the ships, the FIGs also disengage from combat, even though they cannot leave the sea zone.

    And to the prior question… yes the 2 FIGs would get their defensive rolls on the SUB.


  • @ncscswitch:

    Axis roll is correct in that if you move 4 spaces to combat, and the AC withdraws, the FIGs cannot retreat.

    Also, you cannot partial retreat.

    So once you pull back the ships, the FIGs also disengage from combat, even though they cannot leave the sea zone.

    And to the prior question… yes the 2 FIGs would get their defensive rolls on the SUB.

    Yahoo!

    I’m 2 for 2… quiz me some more :)

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Which is why, if you have 4 fighters and 2 went max distance, and you have to retreat, kill the ones that are bingo fuel first!


  • @axis_roll:

    @ncscswitch:

    Axis roll is correct in that if you move 4 spaces to combat, and the AC withdraws, the FIGs cannot retreat.

    Also, you cannot partial retreat.

    So once you pull back the ships, the FIGs also disengage from combat, even though they cannot leave the sea zone.

    And to the prior question… yes the 2 FIGs would get their defensive rolls on the SUB.

    Yahoo!

    I’m 2 for 2… quiz me some more :)

    What is the range of a coconut-laden swallow?


  • What is the range of a coconut-laden swallow?

    Is that a long range European coconut-laden swallow or an Jet Fighter African swallow?


  • @Bean:

    What is the range of a coconut-laden swallow?

    Is that a long range tech coconut-laden swallow or an African swallow?

    I don’t know……AAAAAAAaaauuuuuggggg

  • 2007 AAR League

    @ncscswitch:

    Axis roll is correct in that if you move 4 spaces to combat, and the AC withdraws, the FIGs cannot retreat.

    Also, you cannot partial retreat.

    So once you pull back the ships, the FIGs also disengage from combat, even though they cannot leave the sea zone.

    And to the prior question… yes the 2 FIGs would get their defensive rolls on the SUB.

    I’m not disagreeing, but this is inconsistent with how other units retreat:

    When an Inf retreats, it has moved its full amount.
    A tank can retreat whether it has moved 1 or 2 spaces.
    In fact, you can retreat to a territory on the other side of the target territory, provided that attacking units also came from that territory. eg. UK units attack Karelia from Norway and Archangel and UK tanks from Moscow, and then retreat. All units can retreat to Norway. You end up with Infantry that have moved 2 and Arm that have moved three, and this through hostile territory yet!

    Where in LHTR does it say that Ftrs have different retreat rules?

    Also re: subs firing:@axis_roll:

    @mateooo:

    quick question, probably an obvious answer

    SS attacks AC 2 FTR
    sub hits in the first strike round, and kills the AC
    do the fighters get to strike back?
    Im sure the answer is yes, but I would think it makes more sense to say no

    that sub attacks before anyone knows its there. those fighters dont get a chance to take off… in real life.
    of course it does take a little while for a carrier to sink…

    Since there is no DD present, the carrier is sunk in opening fire.
    According to LHTR, subs can submerge AFTER any round of battle as long as no enemy DD is present.  This implies the ftrs do indeed get to fire upon the sub.

    With respect, when the subs submerge has nothing to do with whether the Fighters are still alive to fire at them. If they sank with the AC, it doesn’t matter when or whether the subs submerge.

    However, Mateoo makes a good point - it can take a while for an AC to sink. Perhaps the air units are patrolling anyway. The question is, when do Ftrs launch? Before the opening fire step? After it? During it?


  • Pg 14 of LHTR 2.0:

    Air units withdraw by “disengaging” and staying in the contested space. Only air units do this.
    They must complete their withdrawal by moving to a friendly space in the noncombat movement
    phase. If they do not have sufficient movement points left in their total allocation to do this they
    are destroyed.

    Pg 16 of LHTR 2.0

    Return disengaging air units to the game board contested space. Air units complete their
    withdrawal in the noncombat movement phase by moving to any friendly space within the
    remainder of their total movement range.
    A fighter can complete its withdrawal to a friendly aircraft carrier or to a friendly sea zone, as
    long as a carrier moves there this turn.
    You may have planned to have your fighter end its total movement for that turn at the contested
    sea zone. You moved the fighter its full movement point allowance to reach the sea zone in
    combat movement. You had intended to have a carrier there to pick it up before the conclusion of
    this turn. If you withdraw your units from this sea battle, your fighter disengages from battle as
    per the paragraphs above, but it has expended all its movement points with no place to land and is
    lost and removed from play.
    Your fighter is permitted to complete its withdrawal in a sea zone adjacent to an industrial
    complex you own if you have purchased an aircraft carrier that turn and will subsequently place
    that carrier in the sea zone where your fighter ends its turn.

  • 2007 AAR League

    Also p. 8:

    A land or sea unit may move a number of spaces up to its movement allowance Most units must
    stop when they enter a hostile space. Thus, a unit with a move of 2 could move into a friendly
    space and then a hostile space, or just into a hostile space.
    An air unit’s movement in any complete turn is limited to its total movement allowance. If it
    moves in the combat move phase, it must always reserve enough movement points for the
    noncombat movement phase to reach a safe landing space. Thus, a bomber without long range
    technology can never move 6 spaces to get to a battle site. A fighter without long range
    technology may be able to move 4 spaces to a sea battle, but only if a carrier could be there by the
    conclusion of the mobilize units phase.

  • 2007 AAR League

    Now re: the subs/ACs/Ftrs question, see p. 13 of LHTR 2.0:

    Submarine Casualties and Destroyers
    If a destroyer is present on the battle board in a combat involving enemy submarines, the
    submarines’ casualties can fire back at the normal time in the combat sequence, provided they
    have not already fired in step 2. They remain on the battle board in the casualty zone until Step 6.
    The destroyers provided enough advance warning to allow return fire.

    and p. 27:

    A fighter based on a defending carrier that is destroyed in combat must try to land. It must land
    on a different friendly carrier in the same sea zone, move 1 space to a friendly territory or aircraft
    carrier, or be destroyed. This movement occurs after all of the attacker’s combats have been
    resolved and before the attacker’s noncombat movement phase begins.

    Your fighter based on your attacking carrier launches before combat (even if it is not participating
    in combat), and if it survives, can withdraw to a friendly territory or carrier within range. If any
    fighter is not in an eligible landing space by the end of the noncombat move phase, it is
    destroyed.

    and p. 28:

    Fighter Defense: Whenever a carrier is attacked, its fighters (even those belonging to friendly
    powers) are considered to be defending in the air
    and can be chosen as casualties rather than the
    carrier. (However, a fighter can’t be chosen as a casualty from a submarine hit, because
    submarines can attack only sea units).

    That last part clinches it. WHENEVER a carrier is attacked, the fighters are considered to be in the air.


  • Ender….what ARE you saying if you’re not disagreeing?  :? :? :? :?

  • 2007 AAR League

    @axis_roll:

    Ender….what ARE you saying if you’re not disagreeing?  :? :? :? :?

    I’m just musing, and reading the rules. It seems you are right.


  • @Ender:

    @axis_roll:

    Ender….what ARE you saying if you’re not disagreeing?  :? :? :? :?

    I’m just musing, and reading the rules. It seems you are right.

    Yes, this is an exception to an exception (planes are exceptions in their own ‘normal’ non-combat moves) and then you’ve got their a/c’s being lost from under them…

    Which is why I posted on two boards to get an answer.

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