DJIA: Net negative from 2000 peak

@dezrtfish:

Read this slow so you can understand it better, when 60% of oil contracts are made by non consumers there is something broken.  That is artificial demand.
  http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8878

Hmm, their most popular story on that website is: "The launching of an outright war using nuclear warheads against Iran is now in the final planning stages. Coalition partners, which include the US, Israel and Turkey are in “an advanced stage of readiness”.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=mostPopular

That was written in 2006.

Its en vogue to blame oil cartels and speculators for the high price of oil, perhaps with help by the freemasons and illuminati. The real story is much more mundane: worries over Mideast, tight supplies, falling dollar, and growing demand from India/China. Do you know what speculators do? They bet on the price of oil. Right now its a winning bet that’s oils going to go up.

This isn’t because some execs in a smokefilled room got together and decided it to jack up the price. If that were true, why was gas ever cheap in the first place? It’s because of the reasons I just gave. I have friends that trade on the commidities markets (too volatile for me). They’re speculators too and they see where we’re headed.

No I didn’t, and no I wouldn’t.  I paid $5000 for my truck, 1) there are no electric cars that will do what I need. 2) If I have a $500 dollar car payment for a car that only uses $300 a month that is still more than the $600 I pay for gass now.  3) The money I am paying for gas is going primarily it seems to investors not AV researchers.

1. If gas is high enough, there eventually WILL BE electric vehicles that do what you need.

2. My point was the new car market. People will now pay thousands more for better fuel economy. They weren’t doing that two years ago. As gas goes up, MPG efficiency begins to trump everything else. Thus, higher gas prices lead to billions spent on R&D, like Toyota’s hydrogren fuel cell car and GM’s Volt.

3. The money you pay for gas goes to the gas station, refineries, and oil companies. Oil companies do not pump all the oil they sell. They buy it on the open market from OPEC and other countries. It’s then refined and sold. Exxon makes huge profits, but percentage wise, they’re right in line with other industries- they just happen to sell more of their product than every other company.

For the life of me I can’t see why people think inorder to get alternative fuels gas has to be expensive.  We certainly didn’t get out of the stone age because rocks got too expencive.  We left the stoneage because Bronze worked better.

We left the stoneage because it was much more efficient to kill someone and make tools with a sharpened piece of metal than a stone. That’s the story of human innovation: efficiency. You don’t see paddleboats because steam engines were incredibly inefficient, but MORE efficient than windpower or a galley full of slaves. They were the best thing around, but people were already trying to improve/replace them. The internal combustion engine is a marvel of efficiency, and Henry Ford would could easily look at a new car today and know what most of the parts do. But the efficiency of our cars is due mostly to the price of the fuel we put in it. Spending billions in R&D to develop an electric car that no one would buy didn’t make sense. Now it does.

If there was a 20k electric car it available even 5 years ago, you wouldn’t be able to keep them in stock.  If is gets 60mpg its not electric its a hybred, and 60mpg isn’t very good for a hybred anyway the VW TDI gets that.  Talk about ignorant, how many cars have you owned, how many car payments have you made? aparently everyone in the world should either ride a bicyle or pay a $500 car payment.  Are you realy so ignorant to believe that every american can aford to go finance a new car so that you can get a nice warm fuzzy feeling about the environment?

I really think you missed the point here.

Ah, I see, I should make myself uncomfortable for the polar bears.  Well don’t concern yourself too much with me being too comfortable in a few weeks I’ll be in Iraq doing my part to be uncomfortable.

Why do you think we’re in Iraq? By switching to electric and hydrogen (or developing our own reserves), we can give a nice big f**k you to the Mid East. Not everyone pushing for electric/fuel cells is a tree hugger.

And since you’re going to Iraq, doesn’t it bother you that you’re participating in “The Illegitimate and Disastrous U.S. Military Occupation of Iraq”?
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9336

That website ring a bell?

But I saved the best for last:

“Global Gridlock: How the US Military-Industrial Complex Seeks to Contain and Control the Earth and Its Eco-System”

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8499

Aint bein a part of the ol US Military-Industrial Complex great? Maybe GlobalResearch is not the best source on the internet to use…

@Cmdr:

I’m truly sorry you picked a bad fund manager, my fund managers have been getting close to 17% per annum since 2002 (2001 was a bad year, we had the World Trade Center and other things happening, very high unrest, I only got 7% that year, bad bad year for me.)

:roll:

And I’m 6’4’', 220, Atlas physique. Done some modelling. You might have seen me. If its on the internet it must be true! Thanks for the laugh, Jen. Your investments tanked like everyone else’s. Why do I picture you sitting across from a Countrywide agent, saying, “Adjustable rate? Interest only? Where do I sign?!?!?”

@Smacktard:

@Cmdr:

I’m truly sorry you picked a bad fund manager, my fund managers have been getting close to 17% per annum since 2002 (2001 was a bad year, we had the World Trade Center and other things happening, very high unrest, I only got 7% that year, bad bad year for me.)

:roll:

And I’m 6’4’', 220, Atlas physique. Done some modelling. You might have seen me. If its on the internet it must be true! Thanks for the laugh, Jen. Your investments tanked like everyone else’s. Why do I picture you sitting across from a Countrywide agent, saying, “Adjustable rate? Interest only? Where do I sign?!?!?”

Thanks for the nice flaming and flame baiting.

Not everyone’s stocks went down, Smacktard.  Anyone invested heavily over seas and in wise domestic products actually saw very nice returns on their investments.

Here are some examples for you.  I don’t own them all, but I have held most of them since 2001 due to the terrorism activities in this nation and my intimate knowledge on how poorly you Americans can sift through the propaganda fed to you by the news. (Hey, if the news is battering you 24 hours a day, 7 days a week telling you the economy is awful, eventually you’ll cave in and start believing them, even if everyone is driving around in golden Rolls Royces and sipping Champaign with their Caviar.)

American Funds EuroPacific Growth Fund (AEPGX) up 22.8% in the last five years.  Up 19% THIS YEAR
T. Rowe Price Intl Discovery (PRIDX) up 31.2% in the last 5 years. Up 16.6% THIS YEAR
T. Rowe Price Emerging Markets (PRMSX) up 38.3% in the last 5 years. Up 42.9% THIS YEAR
American Funds New World (NEWFX) up 23.1% in the last 5 years. Up 32.9% THIS YEAR
T. Rowe Price New Era (PRNEX) up 29.9% in the last 5 years. Up 40.7% THIS YEAR

Source: THE MONEY 70, Money Magazine, June 2008

As I said, I’m sorry some people are having a hard time investing wisely.

And yes, those are all actively managed funds, so there is a small fee associated with them.  However, with returns up to 40% in half a year, who cares about a piddly little commission to the fund manager?

Ok, how about Fox, CNN, and the Senate…

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,166038,00.html

http://hsgac.senate.gov/public/_files/052008Masters.pdf

http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/08/news/economy/senate_gas_prices/index.htm

I am not suggesting some backroom conspiracy, I’m saying that investment companies have found a way to make money and they’re taking from me.  I am also saying that global warming proponents think is a good thing because it’s helping their agenda.

I agree there are people that will pay more for better gas mileage, but there are even more people that can’t go out and buy a new car so they get better mileage.  Those people are really getting the shaft in the name of progress.

@Smacktard:

3. The money you pay for gas goes to the gas station, refineries, and oil companies. Oil companies do not pump all the oil they sell. They buy it on the open market from OPEC and other countries. It’s then refined and sold. Exxon makes huge profits, but percentage wise, they’re right in line with other industries- they just happen to sell more of their product than every other company.

You missed a step, the oil companies also buy from investors who are buying from OPEC and other countries.  That creates an artificial demand and normally allows for a more smooth process so that demand isn’t constantly rising and falling.  However now that oil prices seem to be going up only it’s a runaway train the more that is bought the higher the price goes.  From what I can gather, I don’t have a hard current source the world uses about a 100 million barrels of oil a day, I read in one of those sources above that there are over a billion barrels being held by speculators, and the longer they hold them the more their worth and when they sell them the more they can buy again…

I’m not saying that speculation is the only problem or that alternative fuels shouldn’t be developed.  I’m saying unregulated speculation is costing me money.  I think it’s sad that we are dependant on foreign oil, especially with the technology available.  I read last week about an electrolysis generator that can split H2 and O and feed them directly into a cars intake increasing mileage and hp by 15% to 40%.  It runs off of the car battery and distilled water.  If some one can make and install that in their garage the car companies should be doing something more to increase mpg.

@dezrtfish:

Ok, how about Fox, CNN, and the Senate…

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,166038,00.html

How about Fox?

"In its Medium-Term Oil Market Report on Tuesday, the IEA said demand would rise most in developing countries, with Asia, the Middle East and Latin America accounting for nearly 90% of demand growth over the next five years.

The energy agency’s executive director, Nobuo Tanaka, said market fundamentals, and not speculative investments, were behind high oil prices."

http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/markets/industries/energy/oil-jumps-middle-east-concerns/

CNN?

“Oil rises on tight supply forecast
Investors hedge against dollar as energy agency sees supply problems and demand growth over the next five years.”

http://money.cnn.com/2008/07/01/markets/oil/index.htm?postversion=2008070113

Here’s a good article for you: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/07/lets_shoot_the_speculators.html

The title is tonge-in-cheek, and the guy is hardly a leftist. One of his articles is “Start Drilling”. And what do you actually believe? That there’s a cabal of investors jacking up the price? You do realize that speculators are a REACTIVE group, right? Whatever the news is, they REACT to it. If some marvelous invention came out that doubled MPG and cost $50, where do you think oil futures would go? Right now, these investors are reacting to bad news. News that Fox and CNN are carrying this morning: The dollar’s sinking, supplies are tight, demand is growing. Its the same litany I said yesterday.

I am not suggesting some backroom conspiracy, I’m saying that investment companies have found a way to make money and they’re taking from me.

Ok, so what new trick did these companies come up with in the past couple years? Because oil was $30 a barrel just four years ago. In fact, for about 20 years, we were awash in cheap oil. Were these investment company henchmen twirling their mustaches and just biding their time all those years?

I am also saying that global warming proponents think is a good thing because it’s helping their agenda.

Environmentalists have hated oil since forever. Did they also suddenly find a way to drive up the price? The real truth can be summed up by about 4 simple reasons:

1. The dollar’s historic decline: Since the 70’s oil HAS to be traded in dollars. When the dollar drops, it takes more dollars to buy the same barrel of oil
2. China, India, Southeast Asia’s enormous growth: China and India have sustainable 8%+ growth for over a decade now. Like any industrialized nation, they run on oil. China and India’s economy doubles every 7-8 years. Ours (running at around 3-4% grwoth) doubles every 20-25 years.
3. Mideast worries: Iran is a huge supplier of oil. Any saber-rattling is going to worry people who trade in futures, and there’s been a lot of it lately.
4. OPEC’s production: Bush recently begged Saudi Arabia to increase production. They ignored him. OPEC is just about at capacity. There’s a finite supply of light sweet crude. We don’t have the will to drill our own, and new discoveries in the MidEast aren’t keeping pace with demand. A basic law of economics: rising demand and limited supply= price goes up.

I agree there are people that will pay more for better gas mileage, but there are even more people that can’t go out and buy a new car so they get better mileage.  Those people are really getting the shaft in the name of progress.

It’s painful in the short-term. It will be better for all of us in the long-term. It’s not like people are starving. You cut back on movies, lattes, eating out, put off that new flat screen, etc. Most people in the world would kill for what we have to cut back on. We’re a fat lazy country of consumerists with a negative savings rate, spending our grandkids’ money. Maybe we need a kick in the ass.

You missed a step, the oil companies also buy from investors who are buying from OPEC and other countries.  That creates an artificial demand and normally allows for a more smooth process so that demand isn’t constantly rising and falling.  However now that oil prices seem to be going up only it’s a runaway train the more that is bought the higher the price goes.  From what I can gather, I don’t have a hard current source the world uses about a 100 million barrels of oil a day, I read in one of those sources above that there are over a billion barrels being held by speculators, and the longer they hold them the more their worth and when they sell them the more they can buy again…

Look, it’s not a self-fulfilling prophecy, like you’re describing. There are concrete reasons why investors see oil as a good buy (the 4 I listed). They didn’t all just wake up one day and think, “Oil’s too cheap! Let’s drive up the price”. And I’d be surprised if speculators were holding a billion barrels. You would need a pretty big tank to hold that. Commodities traders don’t usually buy the commodities: they bet on future contracts. The contracts are bought and sold and finally end up with the person that actually wants to take delivery of the oil. If you hold onto the contract too long, YOU buy the oil. Good luck storing it. What you’re talking about is the equivalent of hundreds of oil-tankers steaming in circles to create artificial scarcity. World doesn’t work like that. The oil is pumped, refined, and shipped to whoever buys it as quickly as possible.

I read last week about an electrolysis generator that can split H2 and O and feed them directly into a cars intake increasing mileage and hp by 15% to 40%.  It runs off of the car battery and distilled water.  If some one can make and install that in their garage the car companies should be doing something more to increase mpg.

There’s also a small company selling a $10,000 battery kit that will 1: turn any car into a hybrid or 2: turn a hybrid into a fully electric car. Like any new techology, it’s ridiculously expensive, but there is now a market for it. The VCR was expensive when it first came out and calculators used to cost hundreds. GM is betting on batteries and Toyota is betting on fuel cells. Maybe they’ll both be right. The point is, the tradiontional gas engine is going to be a thing of the past. In 10 years, you’ll only see it on used cars. This is a good thing. If it takes a rise in fuel prices, so be it.

@Cmdr:

@Smacktard:

@Cmdr:

I’m truly sorry you picked a bad fund manager, my fund managers have been getting close to 17% per annum since 2002 (2001 was a bad year, we had the World Trade Center and other things happening, very high unrest, I only got 7% that year, bad bad year for me.)

:roll:

And I’m 6’4’', 220, Atlas physique. Done some modelling. You might have seen me. If its on the internet it must be true! Thanks for the laugh, Jen. Your investments tanked like everyone else’s. Why do I picture you sitting across from a Countrywide agent, saying, “Adjustable rate? Interest only? Where do I sign?!?!?”

Thanks for the nice flaming and flame baiting.

Not everyone’s stocks went down, Smacktard.  Anyone invested heavily over seas and in wise domestic products actually saw very nice returns on their investments.

Here are some examples for you.  I don’t own them all, but I have held most of them since 2001 due to the terrorism activities in this nation and my intimate knowledge on how poorly you Americans can sift through the propaganda fed to you by the news. (Hey, if the news is battering you 24 hours a day, 7 days a week telling you the economy is awful, eventually you’ll cave in and start believing them, even if everyone is driving around in golden Rolls Royces and sipping Champaign with their Caviar.)

American Funds EuroPacific Growth Fund (AEPGX) up 22.8% in the last five years.  Up 19% THIS YEAR
T. Rowe Price Intl Discovery (PRIDX) up 31.2% in the last 5 years. Up 16.6% THIS YEAR
T. Rowe Price Emerging Markets (PRMSX) up 38.3% in the last 5 years. Up 42.9% THIS YEAR
American Funds New World (NEWFX) up 23.1% in the last 5 years. Up 32.9% THIS YEAR
T. Rowe Price New Era (PRNEX) up 29.9% in the last 5 years. Up 40.7% THIS YEAR

Source: THE MONEY 70, Money Magazine, June 2008

As I said, I’m sorry some people are having a hard time investing wisely.

Um, to get any credit, you have to make the prediction BEFORE it comes true. Going by your inability to actually read a simple DJIA chart, I’m gonna have to call BS and go with the Countrywide scenario.

I am not taking the credit, I am giving it to my financial advisers and the fund managers, smacktard.  Not my fault if you and Switch cannot figure out who to hire and who not to hire to manage your money for you.

Anyway, that was a very SMALL sampling of my portfolio.  Not every fund went up, but enough of them did not to have to worry about the very few of them that held ground or went down slightly.  And, of course, I’ve been with most of my funds since 2001 (I had a HUGE sell off and repurchase during 2000 since the market did nothing but go down the entire year!  Which is why I think Switch’s assertion of a net negative from 2000 is ludicrous at best, out right lies and deceit at worst.  Wondering if he’s a Psychlo???  He strikes me kinda like Terl sometimes.)

I’m sorry you cannot invest wisely and/or got bad advise.  However, don’t try to sell me a basket of lemons and tell me they’re golden eggs.

As for oil, very little of the oil price actually goes to the gas companies.

Taxes are the number one fee in the price of gasoline

Then there are:

Stations
Labor
Transportation of Product
Research and Development
Advertising
Refining
Drilling
etc

Thing is, gasoline is the LOSS LEADER at the station!  They’re hoping you buy coffee, soda, chips, anything to make up for the price of gasoline so they can show a profit!

Want to see the price of gas go down?  Repeal all taxes on gasoline.  The price from $4.00 a gallon is now $1.87 a gallon. (I mean ALL taxes, taxes on the drilling company, taxes on the refining company, taxes on the shipping company, taxes on the consumer and taxes on the station.)

@ncscswitch:

The 8 1/2 year equities doubling is determined by an application of Einstein’s Rule of 72 combined with the long term historical average rate of growth of the Equities market.

Among the well known folks who speak regarding the 8 1/2 year doubling average are people like the financial talk show hosts Clark Howard and Dave Ramsey.

Since when do we get our facts from talk show hosts???

Maybe my advisers are just more ambitious, they always tell me that money should double every 5 to 6 years.

It is very hard to seperate Economics from Politics.
This will not end well.

Locking thread.