What happens when the Allies declare war on Vichy?

  • '20 '16

    We believe that all Vichy units and territories turn German, IMMEDIATELY, when the Allies declare war on Vichy.

    It also clearly stated that all Vichy units and territories turn Free French if Southern France is conquered.

    As the Allies have to declare war, in order to attack Southern France, it seems like all Vichy would turn German immediately, and there would be no Vichy left to turn Free French.

    Meaning the only way Vichy would ever turn Free French is if Free France itself conquered Southern France.

    PS. What happens to Vichy if Paris is liberated? The rules only speak of Southern France, not Paris.

  • Vichy NRS (3.1) says:

    « Vichy remains neutral until such time that another Major Power declares war on it. »

    « A Free France attack on Vichy does not make Vichy Align with Germany. »

    Therefore, if another power attacks Vichy, it does make Vichy Align with Germany.

    Regarding surrender, it says:

    « If Southern France is conquered, Vichy surrenders. All Vichy colonies subsequently join Free France. All Vichy units join Free France. »

    There is nothing to suggest that only Free France can make Vichy surrender. Southern France is the equivalent of their capital and losing it causes their surrender and turn to Free France.

    To combine both sets of rules, I believe that you must keep the German-allied Vichy forces and territories separate and not replace them by German units.

  • On a counter-point, rule 4.4 mentions:

    “Once Aligned a Minor Power and its units become part of the Major Power for all purposes and ceases to exist as a separate nation for the rest of the game. KMT, CCP and Free French are exceptions to this rule as they do not become incorporated into their Aligned major power and are run as separate nations with their own National Reference Sheets”.

    See also “Aligning” in Appendix B with the same examples (KMT/CCP/Free France).

    Is Vichy missing for that list or is this intended?

    I also realize that the Vichy document is called a Quick Reference Sheet and not a National Reference Sheet.

    If @CaptainNapalm is correct and only Free France may recapture Southern France without tuning Vichy units and territories to German units and territories, then the odds of this happening are not very likely.

  • I feel like the RAI (Rules as Intended) in this case is that if Vichy is taken, they surrender before alignment happens.

  • @insanehoshi
    If I remember correctly, GHG said that alignment happens immediately after combat. This allows these things to happen. Any Vichy left would align after combat is over, if not surrendered.

  • @trig said in What happens when the Allies declare war on Vichy?:

    If I remember correctly, GHG said that alignment happens immediately after combat. This allows these things to happen. Any Vichy left would align after combat is over, if not surrendered.

    True. He did say “immediately after combat.”

  • '20 '16

    @Trig @HBG-GW-Enthusiast When/Where did GHG say this?

  • @captainnapalm
    I believe it was his Dutch Pannekoek video.

  • I looked for something similar about when the alignment takes effect in the rules but did not find it.

    If you have to declare war before combat and declaring war causes the minor power to align, then Vichy would turn German before the combat takes place and we are back to the original question.

    I personally think than an aligned Vichy should keep its own units, but this needs to be addressed in the Errata.

  • @noneshallpass I found this in the comments, looking in the video. I believe he extrapolated this to all minors.

    11 months ago
    ‘I should have explained that.
    The answer is no. The British reference sheets says that they would take control or align the Netherlands at the end of the combat phase on the turn they were first attacked. I had them clarify that from V-2 because some players were a bit confused by the language. This is why I stressed in the video that they should only attack them once. Here is the V-3 reference sheet for now but it will be updated soon to correct a few mistakes;
    https://www.historicalboardgaming.com/assets/images/HBG/GW1936v3/Ref Sheets/Great Britain 31.pdf’”

    Note, the link is old.

  • '20 '16

    @trig Best point, yet, thank you. If the Dutch Islands aligned as soon as Japan declared war, then Japan would be attacking British units. Thus, it must be that only what survives after combat aligns.

    Now, what happens, if anything, to Vichy, if Paris is liberated?

  • @captainnapalm I don’t believe anything happens.

  • Vichy units are not in Paris, so nothing happens to them when Paris is liberated.

    Only taking Southern France makes them surrender, pending clarification on if an when the are to be replaced by German units.

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