Sweet! Thanks guys so much.
German Factory Placement
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Even landing 1 infantry ties up 1 transport.
And yea, the trick is to sucker the allies into landing in force then kill them, or at worst, keep them landing there against a German build up, afriad to move into Southern and split their forces (gotta defend moderately to make this work) while you and Japan squeeze Russia to death.
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I am surprised that no one even asked under what circumstnaces a Western Europe IC would be a viable option for Germany on G1…
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under what circumstances would a Western Europe IC be a viable option for Germany on G1?
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LOL!
Fleet link in SZ7 on G2. Full scale interdiction of Allied shipping.
You drop the IC in Western on G1 and stage your fleets to link. G2 you link the fleets, and reinforce with new naval units placed at the Western IC.
Germany plays the same game as Japan in a KJF, only off France instead of off Japan. And they rely on bulk INF and existing ARM to keep the Soviets in check.
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@ncscswitch:
LOL!
Fleet link in SZ7 on G2. Full scale interdiction of Allied shipping.
You drop the IC in Western on G1 and stage your fleets to link. G2 you link the fleets, and reinforce with new naval units placed at the Western IC.
Germany plays the same game as Japan in a KJF, only off France instead of off Japan. And they rely on bulk INF and existing ARM to keep the Soviets in check.
Do you buy the Baltic carrier too?
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You have to, or you ahve no Baltic Fleet to unify.
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That’s great. My friends and I always like to try new things but I never considered Germany building an IC. I always considered a German IC as a waste of money and a purchase that kept much needed defensive troops from being on the board. The western IC idea has some promise I think. I may just give it a go.
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I still don’t think a Germany IC is worth it in W. Europe
You’d be better off building in S. Europe and driving there. As long as you hold Gibraltar and Algeria you’re almost 100% safe from attack.
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The thing with a Western IC, fleet link and fleet build as G1 and G2 is that it REALLY turns up the heat on UK and USA. They have to spend a ton on Capital Ships in order to start sending land units to Europe, and it will take them quite a number of turns to build up enough ships for it.
And from SZ7, the Brits have no where to hide their fleet while they build. They are in range of everything in SZ7, as well as Western based FIGs thanks to teh AC’s.
Early landings in Africa are now also a serious issue for the US sinc ehte Germans can interdict en masse at will. Germany can flot a couple of TRNs to the Med and shuttle into Africa to secure it for many turns.
Only Russia is a serious player against Germany in the early going, and if Japan makes a massive initial push to force Russia to play honest, then Germany can hold out into G3 once they start getting major land unit production (they will still ahve some land units in G1, and a pretty fair number in G2) and start the inexorable push back toward Moscow.
I have never tried this. But it sounds like a “fun” game, with the Kreigsmarine totally dominating the Atlantic for quite a while :-)
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Yea, it sounds fun, but I worry about loosing 16 IPCs for a Carrier on R1 and 15 more for an IC on R2 to pull this off.
Not to mention, you have to forgo bringing any land units to Egypt with your transport now because you have to take Gibraltar to ensure you arn’t sunk by the RAF. Means you’ll attack weaker, possibly loose it.
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Leave the TRN behind when you mearge the fleet and transfer from Western to Algeria, out of range of Russian and UK FIGs. You still get the forces in, with added defense against a US landing, and in a solid mass that completly covers Africa by the time you are done.
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Ncscswitch, your strategy proposal is very innovative. I gave it some thought and discussed about possible Allied counters with a friend. We did not have a board to try anything out, so we kept it theoretical.
We both thought KJF, instinctively.
We also thought SA complex to secure African $ if you decide not to challenge the German fleet with UK.
The KGF path is very interesting, too. We will get to it ASAP.
I suggest that you start a topic about the WEur factory. -
Ncscswitch, your strategy proposal is very innovative. I gave it some thought and discussed about possible Allied counters with a friend. We did not have a board to try anything out, so we kept it theoretical.
We both thought KJF, instinctively.
We also thought SA complex to secure African $ if you decide not to challenge the German fleet with UK.
The KGF path is very interesting, too. We will get to it ASAP.
I suggest that you start a topic about the WEur factory.With a carrier AND complex on G1, I’m thinking KGF.
The German fleet can’t just stay at Western Europe. As soon as the Allies have any kind of fleet, the German fleet must go to the Baltic to stop the UK containing Germany with Norway/Karelia/E.Europe units, or reinforcing Archangel. Or the German fleet must go to the Baltic to stop the Allies from taking W. and/or S. Europe. The easiest part to figure on is a SUPER strong USSR. It’s almost like when Germany spends 30 IPC on tech dice on G1; the USSR just doesn’t have anything to worry about.
The Allies will pull a different game, and force the Germans either to attack a budding navy and leave their navy vulnerable to a secondary Allied fleet with massed Allied air (UK and US), or force the Germans to split up (so it plays like Germany had never unified the fleets), or force the Germans to commit their fleet to north or south. If the German fleet stays south, it’s containment in Europe while the Allies build up air strength that can take on the mighty German Med fleet. If the German fleet stays north, Germany does not hold Africa.
Basically, UK and US can race Germany for navy and air while USSR races Germany for territory. It’s just very messy. The big Allied threat in Western Europe is when the Allies get an IC built; I feel that Germany’s just building one for them.
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@ncscswitch:
Leave the TRN behind when you mearge the fleet and transfer from Western to Algeria, out of range of Russian and UK FIGs. You still get the forces in, with added defense against a US landing, and in a solid mass that completly covers Africa by the time you are done.
Okay, so you have the following fleet layout on UK1:
1 Aircraft Carrier, 2 Fighters, 2 Submarines, 1 Destroyer, 1 Transport in Sea Zone 5
1 Battleship in Sea Zone 13 with possession of Algeria
1 Transport in Sea Zone 15.UK 1: 2 Fighters, 1 Bomber to Sea Zone 13. Dead Battleship. Land in Gibraltar.
USSR 2: 2 Fighters to Sea Zone 15, dead Transport.
Fleet Linkup? None.
And, for the record: UK buys 3 fighters to use in conjunction with the Battleship and 2 Transports should Germany be audacious enough to attempt to get out of SZ 5. Meanwhile, W. Europe is a juicey target for both Britian and America as they can now build there. That means, Germany actually has to protect it instead of bouncing back and forth allowing landings then slaughtering them.
No, you have GOT to take Gibraltar with your transport to protect your Med fleet from attack. Otherwise, a linkup on G2 is 100% impossible.
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A couple of thoughts on this.
First, this is where I am coming from:
Can Germany afford to be a naval power?
Assume the worst case for Germany, and that is when the Allies are all concentrating on Berlin. That is called KGF, or Kill Germany First. Russia has about 5 rounds before they need to spend a nickel on Japan because it takes that long for Japan to threaten Moscow. So assume that between 24 and 32 Russian IPCs are heading west every round. If Germany is down money to Russia but up money in Africa, they could maintain a paycheck between 30 and 42. On average, Germany will be ahead of Russia by somewhere between 6 and 10 IPCs. That has a few implications:- That difference is not consistently enough to buy one boat every round and keep up with Russia.
- The US and the UK need to divert only two or three German units away from Russia to make the Eastern Front even between Germany and Russia.
If the Allies are really going KGF, then the UK has nothing better to do than to put boats in the water until the German boats are dead. That means the UK will buy 30 IPCs of boats and planes every round. Compare that with the 6-10 IPCs Germany can spare from Russia, and it is clear that the Germans can’t be naval builders for long even if the US does nothing.
That’s from Caspian Sub Policy Paper #11.
So in that context, building 1car in the Baltic and 1IC in WEU and you’ve spent 31 IPCs. The implication of building the IC is that you will build MORE navy, or you wouldn’t bother building the IC. So figure a minimum of 2 more units for 16 IPCs. **That is 47 IPCs in the water.** Based on the differential between the Russian and the German paycheck, Russia should be all over Germany with explosive growth.
R1 Russia builds something like 4inf 3art.  R2 if they see 1car 1IC they should build all tanks and go down Germany’s throat.
The Allies should be over-joyed to see those builds. Who needs to land UK and US units in Europe if Germany has no ground troops and Russia has a lot of Germany’s money?
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Straw:
Fundamental flaw with your scenario. Do you really think England is going to own Africa those first few rounds? I doubt it, so you’re not going to have 30 IPCs a round to be doing anything. Heck, you might not even have 30 IPCs on R1 if Germany goes SBR on R1 to England.
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Hey J.
The quote from the paper is talking about typical games, and yeah, in most games I have 30 or more IPCs for the UK for the majority of rounds. I go back to Anglo R1 so I collect 30 R1. I often take Norway R2 or R3 to offset the loss of India. By the time I lose other territories like AUS, I am swapping places like EEU and WEU, so I tend to have about $30. I’m sure that’s not the case for all games, but it’s a decent baseline figure for the analysis.
In this SPECIFIC instance with the massive WEU naval buildup, UK would still own Africa since the German fleets are united. The UK may or may not get NOR R2, but you’re not really talking about a dramatic deviation in the situation; the UK will still be able to put down 3 boats per round if they want to. The point of the quote from the paper is that if Germany is putting money in the water, then Russia should be stomping Germany like a narc at a drug rally.
Thanks for the feedback.
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The Germans have a strong fleet to start with, and a better air force. They do NOT have to spend as much as the Allies to maintain superiority. It is easier and cheaper to build a defensive fleet than an offensive one, but the German fighters give the German navy an added punch.
On the other hand, if Germany spends any sort of serious resoruces on ships and/or an industrial complex, Russia is going to be very strong, and Germany has to race BOTH the Allies. Add to that the fact that if the Allies position their navy correctly, the German navy will have to commit to attacking the Allied fleet before it can reach full power, but the weakened German navy will then be far more vulnerable to an air attack.
Let’s say you had an African bid (German fleet unificaiton is very costly otherwise because of Anglo-Egypt). German takes Anglo-Egypt and Gibraltar, and attacks the UK Gibraltar battleship with battleship, sub, and transport (for Gibraltar), possibly a fighter or two. The UK destroyer at the Med is now stranded, and UK fighters from London cannot hit the Mediterranean fleet because of a lack of landing space. If the Germans built a Baltic carrier for protection (which I do not necessarily say is a good idea), and put only four fighters land in Western Europe, the Allies cannot stop fleet unification except at a heavy price. If the Allies put a USSR sub west of Algeria, it’s just cleared by the W. Europe airforce. If the Allies put the entire Allied fleet of 4 trns, 1 sub, 1 btl west of Algeria, this is crushed by Germany’s 1 trns, 1 sub, 1 btl, 5-6 fighter and bomber.
So assume the Allies run away, and the Germans can unite their fleet at West Europe, which will now be 2 trns, 3 sub, 1 destr, 1 carrier, 2 fighters, 1 battleship. Now what? If the German fleet stays west of W. Europe, US can build an air force and fleet, unite with UK elements. Germany can smash that first fleet as soon as it comes within 2 spaces, but then Germany’s fleet is far away from reinforcements and also vulnerable to a massive US air attack. If Germany doesn’t smash that first fleet, the Allies just build it up until the Allies can smash the German fleet. (What else do the US and UK have to spend on?)
US already starts with 2 destroyers and two transports, as well as probably three fighters (Hawaii, W. US, E. US) and bomber (E. US). The UK starts with a battleship and 1-2 transports (but if the Germans attacked a UK transport, it will lose a sub to UK air). USSR has a sub. So you already have a defensive fleet of 4 trns 1 sub 2 destr 1 btl without the Allies spending a single IPC. Two subs and a carrier make the Allied fleet STRONGER on defense than the German fleet’s defense, and just a few subs and carriers or battleships or fighters allow the Allies to even attack (a multinational force is lousy for attacking, but good on defense; in this case, though, US can ramp up production very quickly and become a real threat).
All this could possibly be countered by Germany, but factor in the USSR bashing down the door in the east, and the fact that Germany can’t seriously threaten anything with the German fleet, and the fact that the UK and US really have to worry about building anything but navy/air (because Germany should not be able to invade London against a good Allied player, so the US and UK can produce almost nothing but ground and air).
You could say that Japan might attack the US, but that means less pressure on Russia, and the US can easily counter, even while maintaining a defensive fleet in the Atlantic.
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Germany does NOT have to withdraw to the Baltic. They can stage in SZ6 on G3, sealing hte Baltic, able to be directly reinforced from Western, and still be an immediate invasion thread to UK.
They can also move out form there and drop a mass of forces in Archangel… behind the Russian front lines.
If they stay in SZ7, then WCan is at immediate risk.
There IS a definite risk to Germany on the Russian Front, no doubt about that.
But in a defensive posture, Germany can hold their territory a LONG time… especially if Japan can shuck hard into Asia (11 divisions J2 forward)As for Africa… The US is closed out due to the Germany fleet (they can kill any early US fleet in SZ12 without breaking a sweat). An IC by UK in UOSA is suicide, sicne Germany can do a mass TRN buy and hammer London over and over whhile UK spends money in Africa. And of course Japan can come for Africa too.
It would indeed be a fun game to play with a massive Kreigsmarine. But I would only do so for fun for the first SEVERAL attempts to see where the mid and long term flaws are in the strat. It is just TOO radical to attempt in a game that counted (such as a Tournament…).
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Mmm . . . well, it really isn’t a topic that can be covered in one or two short posts, although I did mention how I thought the mechanics would work out (I’ve tried it myself, but without the W. Eur IC).
I would think, though, that the Allies should be able to force Germany to commit either to the Mediterranean or the Baltic (the German fleet doesn’t actually have to be IN the Med or the Baltic, but the German player will play differently depending on if Africa or a push through Archangel is the focus.
If Germany concentrates on Africa with a unified fleet, it gets Africa and security for Western Europe, but trades off most of the eastern front and allows the Allies to attack Norway/Karelia/E. Europe or fortify into Archangel.
If Germany goes into the Mediterranean to help attack Caucasus, Western Europe is put at risk.
If Germany concentrates on the Baltic, it gets security for Western Europe, but is vulnerable to a major landing at Algeria that threatens S. Europe the next turn.
Both scenarios are vulnerable to Allied air/naval buildup.
Germany’s threat of 5 transports at Western Europe on G2 is pretty good, but the Allies SHOULD be able to defend; it’s an attack that can be seen coming after the G1 naval moves and IC build.
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