Critique this US strategy

[DarthMaximus]

Yeah, unfortunately there wasn’t much I could do about the diversions in our game.

We both know I never had the Punch to take Moscow.  I had to sacrifice some of Japan just to get Cauc with Germany, but then it simply became the wiating game, when never really helps the Axis.

My hope was that maybe you would do something while trying to create a diversion and leave an opening.  But it never appeared.  You always had forces to protect against a move on the ME or a Japan landing in Afr, then the US showed up to keep my ships at bay, etc.

In hindsight, I should have probably deadzoned Cauc and tried for Wrus instead, maybe try and manever it so Japan could have taken Cauc, but I think there were issues with that as well.

But the great thing about that game was seeing all the different stuff play out and really gave me some do’s and don’t’s at least for my style of play.  Which have more to do with bid/purchases/focus/when to move on Ukr/Cauc/Wrus.

[Guest]

The initial Japan defensive buy is an AC, and land based FIGs.  You lose some punch as Japan in Asia, but if you built and TRN land units to Asia, there is usually not a strong land counter by Russia.

Dependign on US counters, etc, Japan then has 2 or 3 AC’s, loaded or nearly so.

J2, Japan gets to 3 AC’s, and if no AC’s have been lost, they finish loading all 3.  This of course combined with TRN buys to reach 4-5 TRN.  Any remaining BB’s are consolidated.

Your TRN’s are your fodder if needed.  Your FIGs are you main defense.  USA doing an all air strike on you with just AF is going to be expensive.

Further additions consist of a bit of mixing… a DST if you do not already have one.  Perhaps a second if US is buying SUBs.  1 or 2 of your own SUBs, extra TRNs (to scavenge islands, re-route Asia force to islands if needed, and of course as Fodder with air defense capability).

If US is going REALLY hard core in the Pacific, AC#4, loaded.

Come and get me Yanks!

[DarthMaximus]

Agreed. 
It is very easy to build a defensive force, but the problem is the US does not have to kill the Japan fleet, just force it back to sz 60, which is very problematic for Japan.

Likewise, the Japan fleet won’t be able to kill the US fleet.

If I’m not mistaken the US can have 4 acs, 7-8 ftrs, 1 bb, 1 dd, 1 trn at the sol is sz at the end of US 4 with an ac and 2 ftrs in the Wus us sz.

This now leaves Japan with a choice, do you attack?  Which turns all your 3 and 4’s into 1’s and 3’s while the US shifts to the 3’s and 4’s?

Or do you let them be and continue to build defensively?  Just for a strafing run to kill the trn you are looking at minimum 7 hits.

Further, your ftrs are now stuck defending in sz 60, which means you need to buy more offensive punch for the land.  Your ftrs can’t reach very far and still land back in the sz, you can of course buy new ftrs to place directly on the AC’s but you are still not increasing your unit count for the sz.

I’m not saying it is unbeatable or anything, just that Japan has to be very careful.  You don’t want to get caught buying a sub or 2 on J2, only to see the US continue to buy AC’s and ftrs making your subs useless.  You’d be better off buying trns, but again you concede taking out the US fleet at that point and are forced back to sz 60, otherwise the US will attack the sz and any new naval purchases with ftrs and then land on their AC’s.  But even trn buys have a downside once you go over 4 or 5, and it starts becoming “wasted” IPC’s that should be spent on land units in Asia.  And if you go IC’s you’ll need at least 2 but that is 30 IPCs on top of the trns you bought???  You can barely fill 4 trns and 2 IC’s with all inf buys (42 IPC).  You could commit to IC’s early, but then you lose some flexability on J1 and J2.

All this can play into the Allies hands as it buys time for Russia.

It basically boils down to, the Japanese player really needs to be on top of their game and prepared.

[Nix]

Japan only needs to kill the USA trn´s……  USA pacific fleet without trns are useless.

And you do enought damage for US to pick trn casualties, so Japan win… (or get´s like 3 more rounds, and that is usually enought to win the game)

[Guest]

There is 1 TRN in that fleet Darth.  So Japan loses 1 island of value per round starting in J5 (solomons, lost in J4 has no IPC value).

I have still sent 30+ divisions to Asia at that point, and reinforced my fleet.

If I built up my Japan fleet at minimal level that I posted above (to 3 AC loaded, a DST, a SUB, 5 TRN’s, my 2 starting BB’s), and my BOM, I have a 2/3 chance of winning against the Solomons fleet, with 2 BB an an AC left on average.

Even if I lose, you have no TRNs in the Pacific with the builds posted.  2 turns to build and move them into position…
And at 36 IPC’s to the Pacific per turn (in order to get 4 loaded AC’s on turn 4, US is buying only about 2-3 INF to Europe or Africa per turn (assuming US used existing FIGs for 3 of the 8 FIGs needed) on only 2 TRN…

[DarthMaximus]

Alright, if you guys say so….   :-)

:evil:   :evil:   :evil:

Muhuhahahahahahaha!

[Jennifer]

@Nix:

Japan only needs to kill the USA trn´s……  USA pacific fleet without trns are useless.

And you do enought damage for US to pick trn casualties, so Japan win… (or get´s like 3 more rounds, and that is usually enought to win the game)

As America I’ll gladly trade my transports for your fighters/carriers.  And that IS going to be the trade you are going to make.  Meanwhile, you really don’t set me back that much, because I’ll just have more transports comming shortly afterwards.  Meanwhile, I’m gobbling up Islands like crazy.  You might not think East Indies and Borneo are worth that much, but it is 8 IPCs or the value of India, Buryatia, SFE, Yakut and China combined.

Add in American and English units moving into India/Sinkiang (or maybe just a couple Russian infantry a round) and you’ll be drawing negative starting income instead of positive.  And as mentioned, you’re going to be quickly locked into SZ 60/61 while the Allies have free reign.

We don’t need to take out your fleet, once we have you reduced to Japan, Phil, Oki we can build units to help Russia reclaim Europe.

[NoMercy]

Jen,

As Switch as posted… it will take the States WAY to long to accomplish anything in the pacific.

and by going the pacific route.

UK is almost useless… (All of Africa will be in Germanys hand in no time)

Russia will be helpless without american help. (moscow will fall by the time the States are re-building trns in the pacific) considering pretty much Germany’s full might will be sent after the russians and thats 45-50IPC worth a turn to use vs russia.

[ajgundam5]

Can’t UK just reinforce Africa themselves with their transports?

[Jennifer]

Couldnt America put a BB, Trn, Inf, Arm in Solomons on US 1 to be met by the British AC, Fig, 2 TRN, sub and DD?  That’s a pretty good defensive force and it’s in striking distance of Borneo, East Indies and Phil on US2.

You don’t HAVE to wait, in other words.  You can start forcing Japan into making naval decisions which will weaken him starting on US1.  And without diverting assets.  Though, you can compound the damage done to Japan with even 50% of your assets in that theater.  After all, England and Russia are more then capable of keeping Germany from taking Moscow, they cannot beat them, but they can stop them from winning while America withers the Japanese.

[NoMercy]

UK’s Fleet in India SZ cannot reach Sol SZ on turn 1

[NoMercy]

I would have to argue that Russia/UK might have a hard time stopping the Germans from getting them.

Russia will have to turtle after turn 2-4

Germany can hold the North and at least strafe or kill British reinforcements. while perhaps going into Cauc with the Japs.

[ajgundam5]

to be met by the indian fleet meaning that america will go their first so UK will move their fleet closer on UK 1 then on UK2 link up

[NoMercy]

Japan has a start-off fleet around East-Indies designed to kill the British fleet. It could intercept and kill it before it would link up with the States Navy. thats just 1 option.

[Jennifer]

Yes, but I’d much rather Japan try and sink the English fleet then hit the one at Pearl.  I have a pretty good shot at sinking a capital ship with the British fleet too.  We’ve got 1 submarine, 2 transports, 1 fighter, 1 destroyer 1 aircraft carrier.

That’s:

14 or 2 and 1/3 hits on R1

You have 2 fighters, 1 aircraft carrier, 1 battleship.

That’s:

11 or 1 and 5/6 hits on R1

You take 1 hit on BB, 1 fighter.  I take 1 or 2 transports (let’s say 2 for arguement’s sake.)

You are now 1 fighter, 1 carrier, 1 dbattleship vs 1 sub, 1 carrier, 1 fighter 1 destroyer (8 vs 12)

I get 2 hits, you get 1

It’s now 1 dbattleship vs 1 carrier, 1 fighter, 1 destroyer

So we end up with 1 carrier, 1 fighter and that’s about what England is going to end up with ANYWAY if they go after all your ships on UK1.  Meanwhile, you’ve lost 33% of your fighters, 50% of your carriers and 50% of your battleships giving America a golden opportunity to annihillate you after countering Pearl.

[Guest]

You are missing 2 Japan FIGs that can join in that fight usign fighter exchange on the AC…

That changes your odds quite a bit.

And that fleet link-up also leaves Africa in German hands, costing UK not only their fleet, but 1/3 of their income.

[Jennifer]

@ncscswitch:

You are missing 2 Japan FIGs that can join in that fight usign fighter exchange on the AC…

That changes your odds quite a bit.

And that fleet link-up also leaves Africa in German hands, costing UK not only their fleet, but 1/3 of their income.

Uh-huh.  But now you’re short in Hawaii giving America a free Carrier or sinking your capital ships there.

So which do you choose?  You can’t have both, you don’t have the forces for it.  Meanwhile, if you do try for the 60/40% chance of winning both, you have almost no offensive units in Asia for use on J1 or J2.

Russia would love 2 rounds to build up a significant front against Japan with minimal resistance by offensive units.  Meanwhile, Geramny’s getting hammered by all 3 powers since there’s no real Japanese threat on J1 or J2 and it’ll be J3 before they start making a significant pressence…and that’s only if America doesn’t counter Pearl and sink 50% of your carriers and battleships again.

You can’t have it all ways, guys.  You either loose your capitals taking down the Brits or by an American counter attack.  Either way, you’re 50% of initial fighting strength which means you’re behind the power curve navally.

[DarthMaximus]

Now you are getting somewhere.

Jen, is right, about the choices.  This was kind of brought up in the UK Pac fleet thread, but it is one or the reasons why you can’t dismiss the US Pac fleet so easily.  Jen gets it, although we may have different ways of going about it.

Consider this:

UK fortifies entire ME/Pac fleet in sz 30 (with 2 inf from Aus) - I think it is sz 30, I always forget the #'s.
And the Retreat from Ind to Per and Trj to Per.

Now Germany may be licking their chops at Afr, but they shouldn’t b/c UK can strike mulitple territories on UK 2.

But Japan sees this and can take a shot at wiping out the UK fleet, it will cost them some planes maybe an AC and perhaps a shot at Pearl, but hey I can give Afr to Ger in one foul swoop.

But wait, there’s more…

US buys 2 ACs and ftr on US 1 and fortifies in Wus sz.

So we are left with this:

In order to save Afr for Germany by killing the UK fleet, you sacrifice the Pac to the US early (rd 1-2) and US can move as early as rd 2 on Sol and quickly start claimg the high priced islands, since the UK took the brunt of the attack.

Now if Japan doesn’t bite and leaves the UK fleet alone, then UK has it’s choice of landing spots on UK 2 that include FIC, IND, PER, TRJ, EGY, IEA, and the southern Afr territories as well as an island or two.

And the US is free to continue to build up their fleet, cause it shouldn’t take a genius to see with a bulked up Brit fleet in the Indian Ocean and a Powerful US fleet in Wus sz, the only safe place for the Japan fleet is Sz 60/61.  Mission accomplished for the Allies.

The game is all about choices and forcing your opponents to make the tough ones, and in the process give you an advantage.

[Jennifer]

@DarthMaximus:

The game is all about choices and forcing your opponents to make the tough ones, and in the process give you an advantage.

I just wanted to re-emphasize this.  While I’m almost past the learning curve on AAR, this is still a major point that I’ve known from the days of classic.  You force your enemy to move on your time table, not theres.  You tempt him to attack targets that are out of the way so you can move into strong positions in force with minimal losses, you force him into attacking units of no value out of fear, weakening his over all attack forces, and/or you set up positions where he has to attack superior numbers.

What happens if Germany has Africa?  They are +9, England is -9 per round, correct?  Now, what happens if England/America own East Indies, Philippines and Borneo?  USA/UK +11, England -9, Germany +9, Japan -11.  Net gain +2 for the allies, but even more then that, it is much harder to take islands away from dug in defenders then it is to stage armies in Northern Africa and walk around.  On top of that, the Philippines and Borneo are two high priced islands within striking distance of Japan within 1 transports movement. That means what you build can be used the next round to hit their mainland.  That means he has to pull back and make offensive fleet units to sink your fleet…which is great and all, but you have England/Russia taking land in the Mainland, you have America countering Japan’s fleet purchases and building an invasion force and you have Germany jugging away against mino British and full Russian reinforcements desperately trying to grab the Russia capital before Japan falls or before England and America set up ICs and pump out infantry and tanks to move into Russia for extra defense.

And, let’s face it, if you are going KJF, you really don’t care if Germany get’s Africa because it means Japan doesn’t have it.  Reclaiming from Geramny’s a sinch.  They only have 1 transport down there, that’s 2 units a round.  USA/UK have 4 transports in the Atlantic on R1.  That’s plenty of units into N. Africa on UK/USA1 to take and reclaim N. Africa.

[Guest]

By your strat Jen, US does not ahve those TRNs in the Atlantic, they are bound for the Pacific.

And with Germany’s boosted income, a TRN or 2 for the Med is easy enough to accomplish, making Africa (and the Middle East) a serious issue for UK.

If you get UK’s income down into the low teens, and THEN take out the UK fleet as Germany, Russia is screwed.  UK can;t afford to rebuild their fleet, and Germany can easilly maintaine a minimal AF/Naval presence that can wipe out 1-2 units per round keeping UK locked up in London.

Also, the threat of the UK fleet is minimal.  UK has only 10 INF and 1 FIG in all of Africa, the Middle East and the Pacific.  Japan lands that in Asia by J2, Allied fleets or no fleet.  Sure, Japan may be SLOWED, but slowing Japan at the cost of HALTING Britain, and having the US either vacant or only minimal forces in the Atlantic is a BAD trade for the Allies.

If it is PERFECTLY played, you MAY be able to trade Moscow for Japan at 8-11 IPC’s after 4-5 turns of play.  But then you are just talking about a Germany that hits 100 IPC’s around turn 8-9…